Top Law Schools

so.....

notme wrote:Even if you are correct about the gpa 25th percentile, it doesn't mean that ND, or any other top 25, is eager to grab high LSAT at the cost of very low GPAs in the RD process. It might mean that they believe that the LSAT is a more accurate predictor when it comes to accepting people off of the wait list. [Or it might mean that they admit more legacy or other special circumstance applicants. If this were true I would suspect that Davis/Hastings, with high URM populations, and USC, with a similar alumni network, might also have relatively low 25th percentile figures, but I haven't checked] My point is that I don't think that wait listing a 3.16 can be considered a YP, regardless of LSAT. Beyond that, while a 175 might be great for chosing among low GPA applicants to take off of a wait list, I'm not certain that it carries any significant value over a 170 (or any other number above the 75th percentile at that particular school) for reporting purposes.

Glad I sparked such a debate. I didn't write a Why ND, so I'm figuring that has the most to do with it.

oneforship wrote:

notme wrote:Even if you are correct about the gpa 25th percentile, it doesn't mean that ND, or any other top 25, is eager to grab high LSAT at the cost of very low GPAs in the RD process. It might mean that they believe that the LSAT is a more accurate predictor when it comes to accepting people off of the wait list. [Or it might mean that they admit more legacy or other special circumstance applicants. If this were true I would suspect that Davis/Hastings, with high URM populations, and USC, with a similar alumni network, might also have relatively low 25th percentile figures, but I haven't checked] My point is that I don't think that wait listing a 3.16 can be considered a YP, regardless of LSAT. Beyond that, while a 175 might be great for chosing among low GPA applicants to take off of a wait list, I'm not certain that it carries any significant value over a 170 (or any other number above the 75th percentile at that particular school) for reporting purposes.

Glad I sparked such a debate. I didn't write a Why ND, so I'm figuring that has the most to do with it.

So what's the deal with ND WLing me? I have 98%ile LSAT (e: did take LSAT more than once), and a GPA btw 3.45 and 3.55. Softs are a great PS, WE, etc. Did not do a Why ND. I do not think my numbers are good enough for YP. What do you all think?

notme wrote:Even if you are correct about the gpa 25th percentile, it doesn't mean that ND, or any other top 25, is eager to grab high LSAT at the cost of very low GPAs in the RD process. It might mean that they believe that the LSAT is a more accurate predictor when it comes to accepting people off of the wait list. [Or it might mean that they admit more legacy or other special circumstance applicants. If this were true I would suspect that Davis/Hastings, with high URM populations, and USC, with a similar alumni network, might also have relatively low 25th percentile figures, but I haven't checked] My point is that I don't think that wait listing a 3.16 can be considered a YP, regardless of LSAT. Beyond that, while a 175 might be great for chosing among low GPA applicants to take off of a wait list, I'm not certain that it carries any significant value over a 170 (or any other number above the 75th percentile at that particular school) for reporting purposes.

I'm not really understanding your logic. Why would ND place a higher value on LSAT when pulling applicants from their waitlist, but not from their regular applicant pool? The only way this would work is if they were desperate for LSATs to boost their 25/75s at the end of the cycle. Even still, a 175/3.16 is going to have better offers than ND by the time they start taking people from the waitlist (in this case, s/he already does). I'm sure the adcomms at ND realize this.

I think the OP diagnosed their situation perfectly. Numbers were good enough for an admit, but not good enough for a significant scholarship. Without a Why ND? essay, it was clear that it would take $$ to push ND over UVA or GLC. With that, ND decided to protect its yield rate.

ughOSU wrote:So what's the deal with ND WLing me? I have 98%ile LSAT (e: did take LSAT more than once), and a GPA btw 3.45 and 3.55. Softs are a great PS, WE, etc. Did not do a Why ND. I do not think my numbers are good enough for YP. What do you all think?

No "Why ND" essay. They take this shit personal.

badwithpseudonyms wrote:

ughOSU wrote:So what's the deal with ND WLing me? I have 98%ile LSAT (e: did take LSAT more than once), and a GPA btw 3.45 and 3.55. Softs are a great PS, WE, etc. Did not do a Why ND. I do not think my numbers are good enough for YP. What do you all think?

No "Why ND" essay. They take this shit personal.

Even that is an understatement

I'm tired of this getting bumped, only to not see people hearing from ND.

You will hear soon enough and be able to piss off prospective applicants like we are.

sckon wrote:You will hear soon enough and be able to piss off prospective applicants like we are.

notme wrote:Even if you are correct about the gpa 25th percentile, it doesn't mean that ND, or any other top 25, is eager to grab high LSAT at the cost of very low GPAs in the RD process. It might mean that they believe that the LSAT is a more accurate predictor when it comes to accepting people off of the wait list. [Or it might mean that they admit more legacy or other special circumstance applicants. If this were true I would suspect that Davis/Hastings, with high URM populations, and USC, with a similar alumni network, might also have relatively low 25th percentile figures, but I haven't checked] My point is that I don't think that wait listing a 3.16 can be considered a YP, regardless of LSAT. Beyond that, while a 175 might be great for chosing among low GPA applicants to take off of a wait list, I'm not certain that it carries any significant value over a 170 (or any other number above the 75th percentile at that particular school) for reporting purposes.

I am right about the 25% being 3.36 for class of 2009 (last year). Here is a link directly to Notre Dame's site stating as such: http://law.nd.edu/admissions-and-financ ... ss-profile

You are right that it does not mean they are eager to grab high LSATs, but if they believe its an accurate predictor, that pretty much means they do like LSAT more so than GPA. Hastings has a 3.36 and Davis has a 3.38 so they're all pretty close. Notre Dame leads in LSAT though. Also, it is easier to accept high GPA's compared to high LSAT's because high LSATs are more limited by nature of standardized testing with percentiles.

175 is no different to Notre Dame than a 170 because their 75% is 167. However to a T14 school in which their median is a 172... 170 vs 175 can make a difference in raising or lowering their medians.

I admit there is no way to truly know whether or not he was YPed. But i think its safe to assume that ND knew he would get accepted to higher schools as almost all if not all 175+ scores do.

notme wrote:Even if you are correct about the gpa 25th percentile, it doesn't mean that ND, or any other top 25, is eager to grab high LSAT at the cost of very low GPAs in the RD process. It might mean that they believe that the LSAT is a more accurate predictor when it comes to accepting people off of the wait list. [Or it might mean that they admit more legacy or other special circumstance applicants. If this were true I would suspect that Davis/Hastings, with high URM populations, and USC, with a similar alumni network, might also have relatively low 25th percentile figures, but I haven't checked] My point is that I don't think that wait listing a 3.16 can be considered a YP, regardless of LSAT. Beyond that, while a 175 might be great for chosing among low GPA applicants to take off of a wait list, I'm not certain that it carries any significant value over a 170 (or any other number above the 75th percentile at that particular school) for reporting purposes.

oh and another good example is Northwestern. Their 25% is 3.4 gpa but their 75% LSAT is 172....

They are ranked #10 in the nation (US news i believe or TLS). There are schools that love LSAT over GPA. (not saying they like 2.x GPA) But it is fairly obvious that there are top 25 schools that grab high LSAT at the cost of low GPA. Looking at the data obviously points to this correlation.

We can argue what a low GPA is, which is i guess what your first point was saying that 3.3 is the low point. But i think its actually lower than that. Since 25% of Northwestern still has a gpa lower than 3.4...

I agree most schools would say 3.3 but there are several top 25 schools which probably set it at 3.0 or such. Georgetown, UVA and northwestern among the few which are all t14.

Good Evidence that backs up my point: http://northwestern.lawschoolnumbers.co ... ,8&type=jd

That is for all LSAT 170+ and GPA between 3.0 to 3.3. Notice that although there are a lot of waitlists that there are no rejections what so ever for Northwestern and half are still acceptances.

finalaspects wrote:ND has a problem attracting people with both a high LSAT and high GPA. With the exception being the why ND and with great reasons, where ND feels pretty confident you will attend.

ND's 25% GPA is one of the lowest among the tier 1 law schools at 3.36... I'm betting its the sacrifice of trying to go for a slightly higher LSAT. They are rank 40 or so if you sort by 25% gpa... So its not like they're avoiding low GPA's although it is higher then the 3.3 you stated, but 25% of the applicants have even lower gpa than the 3.36 stated.

Rankings also take into account how many people accept their acceptances, i.e. yield rate so it does matter. (assuming they care about rankings)

same reason why reverse splitters are usually less wanted than regular splitters. high gpas are practically unlimited (given the majors and the schools that can give all their students 4.0s technically) but high lsats are much more limited.

I don't think ND has any more trouble attracting people with both high LSATs and high GPas than the other T25s. It kinda evens out because there are people attending here who got T14 acceptances and turned them down to be at ND, as well as people who would never apply here because of the nature of the school.

As for the 3.36 bit, nearly every school prefers LSAT over gpa. ND's 25th is still higher than schools like WUSTL, UMN, GWU, and UIUC, which will pretty much overlook your gpa if you have a high enough LSAT. If anything, ND is one of the lesser splitter friendly of the T25s (aside from BU/BC). Just because you have an LSAT higher than the 75th does not mean you automatically deserve to get in via RD. ND just really cares about letting in people who want to be here and this shows in the students attending. It's not like ND is in a race to start buying up high LSATS. The endowment is actually bigger than WUSTL's, so if ND really wanted to throw money around like them, they could.

Also, notme hit it on the head earlier that splitters always get the waitlist. However, the tradeoff is that come waitlist time, it is almost always the splitter that gets off the waitlist, no matter what the school. You are looking at the class as a whole and trying to show that schools are fine with GPAs below the 25th. They are, just not during the RD cycle.

savetheturtles wrote:I don't think ND has any more trouble attracting people with both high LSATs and high GPas than the other T25s. It kinda evens out because there are people attending here who got T14 acceptances and turned them down to be at ND, as well as people who would never apply here because of the nature of the school.

As for the 3.36 bit, nearly every school prefers LSAT over gpa. ND's 25th is still higher than schools like WUSTL, UMN, GWU, and UIUC, which will pretty much overlook your gpa if you have a high enough LSAT. If anything, ND is one of the lesser splitter friendly of the T25s (aside from BU/BC). Just because you have an LSAT higher than the 75th does not mean you automatically deserve to get in via RD. ND just really cares about letting in people who want to be here and this shows in the students attending. It's not like ND is in a race to start buying up high LSATS. The endowment is actually bigger than WUSTL's, so if ND really wanted to throw money around like them, they could.

Also, notme hit it on the head earlier that splitters always get the waitlist. However, the tradeoff is that come waitlist time, it is almost always the splitter that gets off the waitlist, no matter what the school. You are looking at the class as a whole and trying to show that schools are fine with GPAs below the 25th. They are, just not during the RD cycle.

Yes, they don't have any more trouble than other schools near their ranking, but obviously the top 6 schools have an easier time than ranked 20-25 schools respectively.

I never stated that just because one has an LSAT higher than the 75th do they automatically deserve to get accepted so i completely agree with you there. I also agree that ND like BU/BC are not splitter friendly as well as ND caring to accept people who truly wish to attend.

Also the evidence that i provided shows that half of those with 170+ LSAT and 3.0-3.3 GPA got accepted during RD cycle while the other half were waitlisted. So Northwestern seems to be fine with it just like a few other schools would be as well. Of course all the schools would like each student to have as high as GPA as possible, but it is definitely not a deal breaker, and a lot of 25% GPA's get accepted in RD cycle. Again, if possible they would want high GPA's but they do get accepted during RD as the facts show.

Oh ok, I just assumed that you were comparing them to the other T25 schools (up to WUSTL), because of course there's no comparison with the higher schools. There are definitely schools that are fine with sub 3.3 GPAs during the RD cycle, and ND is probably fine with them too, depending on the applicant. However, aside from schools like NU and WUSTL, your chances are just far lower. A sub 3.3 with a really high LSAT won't get you in ND if you don't show a lot of interest.

savetheturtles wrote:Oh ok, I just assumed that you were comparing them to the other T25 schools (up to WUSTL), because of course there's no comparison with the higher schools. There are definitely schools that are fine with sub 3.3 GPAs during the RD cycle, and ND is probably fine with them too, depending on the applicant. However, aside from schools like NU and WUSTL, your chances are just far lower. A sub 3.3 with a really high LSAT won't get you in ND if you don't show a lot of interest.

Definitely agree to everything here! Apart from a few schools, chances are indeed much lower with a sub 3.3 no matter what the LSAT is. Schools do tend to have a GPA cutoff even if they deny that they do. There will always be exceptions but in most cases this will hold true.

ND, in particular, seems to be very choosy no matter what your numbers are, to the applicants true desire/interest of attending that school more so than most other schools.

sckon wrote:

badwithpseudonyms wrote:

ughOSU wrote:So what's the deal with ND WLing me? I have 98%ile LSAT (e: did take LSAT more than once), and a GPA btw 3.45 and 3.55. Softs are a great PS, WE, etc. Did not do a Why ND. I do not think my numbers are good enough for YP. What do you all think?

No "Why ND" essay. They take this shit personal.

Even that is an understatement

God damn it... if I actually wanted to go there it would be much easier to write one...

ughOSU wrote:

sckon wrote:

badwithpseudonyms wrote:

ughOSU wrote:So what's the deal with ND WLing me? I have 98%ile LSAT (e: did take LSAT more than once), and a GPA btw 3.45 and 3.55. Softs are a great PS, WE, etc. Did not do a Why ND. I do not think my numbers are good enough for YP. What do you all think?

No "Why ND" essay. They take this shit personal.

Even that is an understatement

God damn it... if I actually wanted to go there it would be much easier to write one...

That's... kind of the point.

EDIT: Actually, I think it was a combination of no "Why ND" essay and the high LSAT. They're not new at this game.

badwithpseudonyms wrote:

ughOSU wrote:God damn it... if I actually wanted to go there it would be much easier to write one...

That's... kind of the point.

EDIT: Actually, I think it was a combination of no "Why ND" essay and the high LSAT. They're not new at this game.

Touche. I'll spend today convincing myself that I really want to spend three years in Indiana....

ughOSU wrote:

badwithpseudonyms wrote:

ughOSU wrote:God damn it... if I actually wanted to go there it would be much easier to write one...

That's... kind of the point.

EDIT: Actually, I think it was a combination of no "Why ND" essay and the high LSAT. They're not new at this game.

Touche. I'll spend today convincing myself that I really want to spend three years in Indiana....

Its not that bad. Plus side is low cost of living and your close to Chicago.

sckon wrote:Its not that bad. Plus side is low cost of living and your close to Chicago.

Yea Chicago is one of my favorite cities... I think I'm starting to become convinced...

savetheturtles wrote:

finalaspects wrote:It's not like ND is in a race to start buying up high LSATS. The endowment is actually bigger than WUSTL's, so if ND really wanted to throw money around like them, they could.

That's not how endowments work at all.

YellowCake wrote:

savetheturtles wrote:

finalaspects wrote:It's not like ND is in a race to start buying up high LSATS. The endowment is actually bigger than WUSTL's, so if ND really wanted to throw money around like them, they could.

That's not how endowments work at all.

+1

YellowCake wrote:

savetheturtles wrote:

finalaspects wrote:It's not like ND is in a race to start buying up high LSATS. The endowment is actually bigger than WUSTL's, so if ND really wanted to throw money around like them, they could.

That's not how endowments work at all.

umm... wtf i never said that you got all the quotes mixed up.... by deleting quote boxes in the wrong places

please make sure you are quoting the right people.... savetheturtles said that...

sckon wrote:

YellowCake wrote:

savetheturtles wrote:

finalaspects wrote:It's not like ND is in a race to start buying up high LSATS. The endowment is actually bigger than WUSTL's, so if ND really wanted to throw money around like them, they could.

That's not how endowments work at all.

+1

-1 for quoting wrong people!

I was waitlisted via snail mail on Tuesday. My LSAT is higher than the 75th percentile, and GPA is at the Median. I'll withdraw soon. Is there any way to ensure that my application is actually withdrawn (not to be considered any further), versus rejected post-withdrawal? I simply don't want my application to "help" a school's acceptance rate if they did not reject me outright.

Good luck to all of those waiting!

-HL