UVA 2010, RD

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triplecats
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby triplecats » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:31 pm

rockchalk86 wrote:What incentive does UVA have to give ED kids money? Guess what, they have to go no matter what so why wouldn't UVA use the money they will save that way and offer more to crazy numbered people? It would make very little financial sense not to do so, not to mention they could secure more high numbered people effectively increasing their selectivity and helping them move into the top 10 and not be tied at 10 with three schools. Follow the money trail my friend...


Agree. My understanding is that Columbia is stingy towards its ED applicants, but I haven't noticed a shortage of people applying there ED. All Virginia has to do is give enough money to ED applicants that it gets a reputation as being relatively generous towards them. This is still expensive, but it's probably cheaper than trying to lure someone away from Michigan's 45k or Penn's whatever it likes to give. Their yield % skyrockets, their ability to differentiate between applicants increases, their ability to pinpoint a class size also increases, and they save money overall.

Edit: it is a little frightening to think how the admissions game could change if more schools adopted this approach. Imagine if the entire T14 adopted this wait-and-see approach with binding EDs and a common deadline. As (let's say) March 1 approached, I'm betting a lot more nervous applicants would commit to one place or another. Truly amazing applicants would still be wooed per normal with money, but for the great mass of applicants many could probably be persuaded to commit somewhere via ED if more law schools began treating ED admissions in this same way.
Last edited by triplecats on Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jericwithers
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby Jericwithers » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:35 pm

rockchalk86 wrote:it's like a girl you take out and pay for dates but she can't decide if she wants to sleep with you but keeps giving you hope (status updates) but then after a while she stops even doing that and you can see no end in sight. Then she says she wants a serious commitment (ED) before it can happen but you feel that you can't justify making that commitment. Then a slut (Michigan) comes around and gives it up and gives you money. Who are you going to go with? I have a three date policy where if a girl doesn't give it up after that I will start the process of moving on. I think I will apply that to admissions too.

I realize this makes me sound like an ass but it's just how I am. Michigan +45k sounds better than Virginia right now for sure.


I hope your PS expressed this same sentiment.

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vanwinkle
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:36 pm

rockchalk86 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:UVA is a school that says they do not take ED status into consideration when issuing scholarships, and I have heard of ED folks getting significant $$ (up to half tuition at least) before. If UVA has such a large ED enrollment this year it's likely more ED kids will get $$.

UVA has a financial incentive to continue this, also, since it gives people more motivation to apply ED.

What incentive does UVA have to give ED kids money? Guess what, they have to go no matter what so why wouldn't UVA use the money they will save that way and offer more to crazy numbered people? It would make very little financial sense not to do so, not to mention they could secure more high numbered people effectively increasing their selectivity and helping them move into the top 10 and not be tied at 10 with three schools. Follow the money trail my friend...

I already told you what financial incentive they have. It's in their best interest to encourage people to continue to apply ED, and continuing to offer scholarships to deserving applicants even if they apply ED is one such method. That way they can secure more "high numbered" applicants by making them confident they'll have more chance of getting into UVA and yet still get the same scholarship $$$ if they ED.

"Follow the money" such a misused phrase, tacked onto the end of weak arguments in the hope it will make them sound stronger.

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rockchalk86
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby rockchalk86 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:37 pm

Jericwithers wrote:
rockchalk86 wrote:it's like a girl you take out and pay for dates but she can't decide if she wants to sleep with you but keeps giving you hope (status updates) but then after a while she stops even doing that and you can see no end in sight. Then she says she wants a serious commitment (ED) before it can happen but you feel that you can't justify making that commitment. Then a slut (Michigan) comes around and gives it up and gives you money. Who are you going to go with? I have a three date policy where if a girl doesn't give it up after that I will start the process of moving on. I think I will apply that to admissions too.

I realize this makes me sound like an ass but it's just how I am. Michigan +45k sounds better than Virginia right now for sure.


I hope your PS expressed this same sentiment.


I think my gender intrinsically expresses that sentiment

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Kohinoor
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:40 pm

rockchalk86 wrote:it's like a girl you take out and pay for dates but she can't decide if she wants to sleep with you but keeps giving you hope (status updates) but then after a while she stops even doing that and you can see no end in sight. Then she says she wants a serious commitment (ED) before it can happen but you feel that you can't justify making that commitment. Then a slut (Michigan) comes around and gives it up and gives you money. Who are you going to go with? I have a three date policy where if a girl doesn't give it up after that I will start the process of moving on. I think I will apply that to admissions too.

I realize this makes me sound like an ass but it's just how I am. Michigan +45k sounds better than Virginia right now for sure.

Maybe you should stop dating sluts?

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triplecats
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby triplecats » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:41 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
rockchalk86 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:UVA is a school that says they do not take ED status into consideration when issuing scholarships, and I have heard of ED folks getting significant $$ (up to half tuition at least) before. If UVA has such a large ED enrollment this year it's likely more ED kids will get $$.

UVA has a financial incentive to continue this, also, since it gives people more motivation to apply ED.

What incentive does UVA have to give ED kids money? Guess what, they have to go no matter what so why wouldn't UVA use the money they will save that way and offer more to crazy numbered people? It would make very little financial sense not to do so, not to mention they could secure more high numbered people effectively increasing their selectivity and helping them move into the top 10 and not be tied at 10 with three schools. Follow the money trail my friend...

I already told you what financial incentive they have. It's in their best interest to encourage people to continue to apply ED, and continuing to offer scholarships to deserving applicants even if they apply ED is one such method. That way they can secure more "high numbered" applicants by making them confident they'll have more chance of getting into UVA and yet still get the same scholarship $$$ if they ED.

"Follow the money" such a misused phrase, tacked onto the end of weak arguments in the hope it will make them sound stronger.


You make a good point, but I do think it's possible to see how more ED applicants could result in LESS MONEY OVERALL being awarded to applicants. UVa just needs to offer enough money to its ED people that, anecdotally, it becomes known that they give money to good ED applicants. However, the actual sum of money they need to give out in total to attract the same caliber of applicants might be less: for example, giving 10k/year instead of the 15k that might be needed to lure someone from Michigan. They still give out some money, and enough that they don't get a stingy reputation, but not as much money as before.

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rockchalk86
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby rockchalk86 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:42 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
rockchalk86 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:UVA is a school that says they do not take ED status into consideration when issuing scholarships, and I have heard of ED folks getting significant $$ (up to half tuition at least) before. If UVA has such a large ED enrollment this year it's likely more ED kids will get $$.

UVA has a financial incentive to continue this, also, since it gives people more motivation to apply ED.

What incentive does UVA have to give ED kids money? Guess what, they have to go no matter what so why wouldn't UVA use the money they will save that way and offer more to crazy numbered people? It would make very little financial sense not to do so, not to mention they could secure more high numbered people effectively increasing their selectivity and helping them move into the top 10 and not be tied at 10 with three schools. Follow the money trail my friend...

I already told you what financial incentive they have. It's in their best interest to encourage people to continue to apply ED, and continuing to offer scholarships to deserving applicants even if they apply ED is one such method. That way they can secure more "high numbered" applicants by making them confident they'll have more chance of getting into UVA and yet still get the same scholarship $$$ if they ED.

"Follow the money" such a misused phrase, tacked onto the end of weak arguments in the hope it will make them sound stronger.


Because the money trail doesn't highly affect politics, sports, business, or any other major arena in this world where people and institutions are primarily motivated by money. No one ED's because they want money, they ED to give them a bump in hopes of securing admissions.

And it's in their best interests to start by giving some ED's money that way when they offer this new policy, they don't have to do so but they have created the idea that it is possible to get money and when that contract is in, it's too late to go back. Brilliant if you ask me. I would be willing to bet that the later ED's receive exponentially less money than the original ED'ers.

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rockchalk86
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby rockchalk86 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:45 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
rockchalk86 wrote:it's like a girl you take out and pay for dates but she can't decide if she wants to sleep with you but keeps giving you hope (status updates) but then after a while she stops even doing that and you can see no end in sight. Then she says she wants a serious commitment (ED) before it can happen but you feel that you can't justify making that commitment. Then a slut (Michigan) comes around and gives it up and gives you money. Who are you going to go with? I have a three date policy where if a girl doesn't give it up after that I will start the process of moving on. I think I will apply that to admissions too.

I realize this makes me sound like an ass but it's just how I am. Michigan +45k sounds better than Virginia right now for sure.

Maybe you should stop dating sluts?


Why?

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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:45 pm

rockchalk86 wrote:What incentive does UVA have to give ED kids money?

If UVA gets a reputation for strong-arming people into ED then not giving them financial aid, it would hurt them in future cycles.

rockchalk86 wrote:Guess what, they have to go no matter what so why wouldn't UVA use the money they will save that way and offer more to crazy numbered people? It would make very little financial sense not to do so, not to mention they could secure more high numbered people effectively increasing their selectivity and helping them move into the top 10 and not be tied at 10 with three schools. Follow the money trail my friend...

UVA isn't working with like 10,000 dollars here. They have enough money directed towards financial aid to be able to offer schollies to their reach candidates and still throw money to the ED crew. In the past, UVA would fill 100 seats ED and have to use money to fill some proportion of the remaining 200 seats. Ceteris paribus, if they fill 200 seats ED this year, the proportion of seats that must be filled with scholarship offers to reach candidates is reduced and the money that can be thrown to the ED candidates increases.

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Kohinoor
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:46 pm

rockchalk86 wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
rockchalk86 wrote:it's like a girl you take out and pay for dates but she can't decide if she wants to sleep with you but keeps giving you hope (status updates) but then after a while she stops even doing that and you can see no end in sight. Then she says she wants a serious commitment (ED) before it can happen but you feel that you can't justify making that commitment. Then a slut (Michigan) comes around and gives it up and gives you money. Who are you going to go with? I have a three date policy where if a girl doesn't give it up after that I will start the process of moving on. I think I will apply that to admissions too.

I realize this makes me sound like an ass but it's just how I am. Michigan +45k sounds better than Virginia right now for sure.

Maybe you should stop dating sluts?


Why?

gonospyhiherpalaids.

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rockchalk86
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby rockchalk86 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:47 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
rockchalk86 wrote:What incentive does UVA have to give ED kids money?

If UVA gets a reputation for strong-arming people into ED then not giving them financial aid, it would hurt them in future cycles.

rockchalk86 wrote:Guess what, they have to go no matter what so why wouldn't UVA use the money they will save that way and offer more to crazy numbered people? It would make very little financial sense not to do so, not to mention they could secure more high numbered people effectively increasing their selectivity and helping them move into the top 10 and not be tied at 10 with three schools. Follow the money trail my friend...

UVA isn't working with like 10,000 dollars here. They have enough money directed towards financial aid to be able to offer schollies to their reach candidates and still throw money to the ED crew. In the past, UVA would fill 100 seats ED and have to use money to fill some proportion of the remaining 200 seats. Ceteris paribus, if they fill 200 seats ED this year, the proportion of seats that must be filled with scholarship offers to reach candidates is reduced and the money that can be thrown to the ED candidates increases.


Or they can go after high numbered people with more half and full scholarships. Clearly UVA is strategizing, why half ass it?

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vanwinkle
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:52 pm

rockchalk86 wrote:Because the money trail doesn't highly affect politics, sports, business, or any other major arena in this world where people and institutions are primarily motivated by money. No one ED's because they want money, they ED to give them a bump in hopes of securing admissions.

And it's in their best interests to start by giving some ED's money that way when they offer this new policy, they don't have to do so but they have created the idea that it is possible to get money and when that contract is in, it's too late to go back. Brilliant if you ask me. I would be willing to bet that the later ED's receive exponentially less money than the original ED'ers.

People don't generally consider money when EDing because most schools don't offer $$ to EDs. UVA is an exception to this, and as such people who do think about money can still consider ED there.

If EDs start receiving "exponentially less" (you would have failed my torts class for misusing the word "exponentially" like that, btw) then it destroys that incentive. Lawyers are taught to consider the long-term repercussions of their actions, and guess who runs the law school? They would undermine and ultimately destroy the reputation they are working to build there and damage their ability to convince quality applicants to apply ED, which is clearly what they want.

God, 0Ls are so cute when they try to argue things like economic efficiency and incentivization.
Last edited by vanwinkle on Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rockchalk86
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby rockchalk86 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:52 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
rockchalk86 wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
rockchalk86 wrote:it's like a girl you take out and pay for dates but she can't decide if she wants to sleep with you but keeps giving you hope (status updates) but then after a while she stops even doing that and you can see no end in sight. Then she says she wants a serious commitment (ED) before it can happen but you feel that you can't justify making that commitment. Then a slut (Michigan) comes around and gives it up and gives you money. Who are you going to go with? I have a three date policy where if a girl doesn't give it up after that I will start the process of moving on. I think I will apply that to admissions too.

I realize this makes me sound like an ass but it's just how I am. Michigan +45k sounds better than Virginia right now for sure.

Maybe you should stop dating sluts?


Why?

gonospyhiherpalaids.


Point taken... haha

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Kohinoor
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:52 pm

rockchalk86 wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
rockchalk86 wrote:What incentive does UVA have to give ED kids money?

If UVA gets a reputation for strong-arming people into ED then not giving them financial aid, it would hurt them in future cycles.

rockchalk86 wrote:Guess what, they have to go no matter what so why wouldn't UVA use the money they will save that way and offer more to crazy numbered people? It would make very little financial sense not to do so, not to mention they could secure more high numbered people effectively increasing their selectivity and helping them move into the top 10 and not be tied at 10 with three schools. Follow the money trail my friend...

UVA isn't working with like 10,000 dollars here. They have enough money directed towards financial aid to be able to offer schollies to their reach candidates and still throw money to the ED crew. In the past, UVA would fill 100 seats ED and have to use money to fill some proportion of the remaining 200 seats. Ceteris paribus, if they fill 200 seats ED this year, the proportion of seats that must be filled with scholarship offers to reach candidates is reduced and the money that can be thrown to the ED candidates increases.


Or they can go after high numbered people with more half and full scholarships. Clearly UVA is strategizing, why half ass it?

Because getting 20 reach candidates this year and ruining their ED program for future cycles is a poor strategy.

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rockchalk86
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby rockchalk86 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:58 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
rockchalk86 wrote:Because the money trail doesn't highly affect politics, sports, business, or any other major arena in this world where people and institutions are primarily motivated by money. No one ED's because they want money, they ED to give them a bump in hopes of securing admissions.

And it's in their best interests to start by giving some ED's money that way when they offer this new policy, they don't have to do so but they have created the idea that it is possible to get money and when that contract is in, it's too late to go back. Brilliant if you ask me. I would be willing to bet that the later ED's receive exponentially less money than the original ED'ers.

People don't generally consider money when EDing because most schools don't offer $$ to EDs. UVA is an exception to this, and as such people who do think about money can still consider ED there.

If EDs start receiving "exponentially less" (you would have failed my torts class for misusing the word "exponentially" like that, btw) then it destroys that incentive. Lawyers are taught to consider the long-term repercussions of their actions, and guess who runs the law school?they would undermine and ultimately destroy the reputation they are working to build there and damage their ability to convince quality applicants to apply ED, which is clearly what they want.

God, 0Ls are so cute when they try to argue things like economic efficiency and incentivization.


How many people applying next cycle are going to understand what took place this year? Short term they will increase their rankings... long term... their ranking increased so more people will want to go there next year and if alums see their school going up they may donate more to keep up the trend because they could care less about ED's and would like their degree to become even more prestigious. With more money they could offer more scholarships and in turn keep moving up.

God, law students are such asses because they think they know sooo much more because they have spent a whole semester in school. Students just are not the whole picture

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vanwinkle
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:08 pm

rockchalk86 wrote:How many people applying next cycle are going to understand what took place this year? Short term they will increase their rankings... long term... their ranking increased so more people will want to go there next year and if alums see their school going up they may donate more to keep up the trend because they could care less about ED's and would like their degree to become even more prestigious. With more money they could offer more scholarships and in turn keep moving up.

God, law students are such asses because they think they know sooo much more because they have spent a whole semester in school. Students just are not the whole picture

Law schools don't plan in terms of this year or next year. They think in terms of 10-year and 20-year and 50-year plans. A reputation also takes a long time to build and a short time to destroy, and doing what you're talking about would make students distrust any claim that EDs still get money for the next 20 or more years. People will talk forever about how they applied to UVA because they used to give ED $$$ and then they stopped and screwed an entire cycle's worth of people. They would destroy any future chance of attracting "high numbered" ED applicants for an entire generation, and for what, the chance to move up one spot or two in the rankings for one year? That small a rankings movement would not nearly be worth the massive lack of trust toward the school it would create for many years to come.

If it takes you longer than four months of law school to learn how to consider the long term effects of things, you will tank your first semester exams, I promise you that.

showNprove
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby showNprove » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:08 pm

A few things:

1. People are overestimating the impact of the elimination of the ED deadline, and I think a lot of that has to do with TLS 0L's feeding into each other's paranoia. ED has never been a major source of matriculants, and there is no reason to believe that this will change things. Last year, only about 15% of those who matriculated had applied ED. Even if the number of ED applications double, more than 70% of Virginia's admits will be RD applicants.

2. "Why UVA?" essays are still important. Virginia understands that people with good numbers will want to keep their options open, but they do look for people who have a sincere interest in UVA, even if it is not their top choice. They know scholarships, etc, will come into play, which is why they make scholarship offers. If someone with a 173/3.85 shows his interest by writing an optional essay, UVA will probably figure that a scholarship will only make that person even more willing to come. If you're going to make an admission or scholarship offer to someone, and only about 15% of your class is coming from the ED pool, you better believe that people with high numbers are still going to get looked at.

3. A rise in ED applicants will not lower the total amount of scholarship money given. The primary reason--if not the sole reason--Virginia is ranked 10th instead of 6th is expenditures per student. They know this, and the admissions office is going to use all of the funds they are allotted. If an ED candidate only gets $10k/yr when he would have gotten $15k/yr, there will be an RD candidate who gets $30k/yr instead of $25k/yr--if that even happens. I haven't heard/seen anything to believe that ED applicants do receive (statistically) significantly less money than what they would have RD. In any case, dispersing all of the scholarship money helps Virginia.


If you have high numbers, don't come off as a jerk in your application, and show an interest in Virginia, you will likely get in without ED --and possibly with a scholarship. All of the paranoia is a bit overdone.

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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby rockchalk86 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:14 pm

So if this move is supposed to kill the law school, why hasn't YP'ing done the same thing? It offers a reason for crazy numbered people not to apply, but they still do. Shouldn't this practice hurt the schools reputation just like their new ED policy?

Guess what, UVA is very highly ranked... people are still going to apply. Most 0L's have no idea what this whole process entails and don't understand these things until they are right in the middle of it. They will still apply, people will still go ED, and this whole crazy thing will start all over again every year.

Say you have 200 ED members in the class. Out of the 1st 100, 40 get scholarships. Out of the second 100, 15 people get scholarships. That is still a significant amount and people will still believe they have a chance of a scholarship if they ED, but they can focus on that last 100 by making much bigger offers to them. They would still offer scholarships to more ED's than most schools, but game their numbers with the last 100. Their reputation would not suffer.

I was just using these numbers for the sake of simplicity btw.

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vanwinkle
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:18 pm

rockchalk86 wrote:So if this move is supposed to kill the law school, why hasn't YP'ing done the same thing? It offers a reason for crazy numbered people not to apply, but they still do. Shouldn't this practice hurt the schools reputation just like their new ED policy?

Guess what, UVA is very highly ranked... people are still going to apply. Most 0L's have no idea what this whole process entails and don't understand these things until they are right in the middle of it. They will still apply, people will still go ED, and this whole crazy thing will start all over again every year.

Say you have 200 ED members in the class. Out of the 1st 100, 40 get scholarships. Out of the second 100, 15 people get scholarships. That is still a significant amount and people will still believe they have a chance of a scholarship if they ED, but they can focus on that last 100 by making much bigger offers to them. They would still offer scholarships to more ED's than most schools, but game their numbers with the last 100. Their reputation would not suffer.

It's adorable how you're still arguing despite not knowing at all what you're talking about. You'll make a good lawyer if you actually start paying attention to facts and relevant issues more when you're in law school than you are now.

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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby Jericwithers » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:19 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
rockchalk86 wrote:How many people applying next cycle are going to understand what took place this year? Short term they will increase their rankings... long term... their ranking increased so more people will want to go there next year and if alums see their school going up they may donate more to keep up the trend because they could care less about ED's and would like their degree to become even more prestigious. With more money they could offer more scholarships and in turn keep moving up.

God, law students are such asses because they think they know sooo much more because they have spent a whole semester in school. Students just are not the whole picture

Law schools don't plan in terms of this year or next year. They think in terms of 10-year and 20-year and 50-year plans. A reputation also takes a long time to build and a short time to destroy, and doing what you're talking about would make students distrust any claim that EDs still get money for the next 20 or more years. People will talk forever about how they applied to UVA because they used to give ED $$$ and then they stopped and screwed an entire cycle's worth of people. They would destroy any future chance of attracting "high numbered" ED applicants for an entire generation, and for what, the chance to move up one spot or two in the rankings for one year? That small a rankings movement would not nearly be worth the massive lack of trust toward the school it would create for many years to come.

If it takes you longer than four months of law school to learn how to consider the long term effects of things, you will tank your first semester exams, I promise you that.


I don't agree that the shared knowledge created by this website is so advanced as to maintain such long term effects. The website really only uses the knowledge of the past two cycles, and anything beyond that many readers would assume the results were specific to that point in time. I also dont agree with the assumption that a one year change in policy would have an instant and long term effect on a school's reputation. Say they lower ED money this year and return it to normal for every other year. Would the reputation really follow them, or would people recognize it as an event specific to a single cycle?

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vanwinkle
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:30 pm

Jericwithers wrote:I don't agree that the shared knowledge created by this website is so advanced as to maintain such long term effects. The website really only uses the knowledge of the past two cycles, and anything beyond that many readers would assume the results were specific to that point in time. I also dont agree with the assumption that a one year change in policy would have an instant and long term effect on a school's reputation. Say they lower ED money this year and return it to normal for every other year. Would the reputation really follow them, or would people recognize it as an event specific to a single cycle?

I wasn't referring to just TLS, though it is certainly one resource that comes into play these days for discussing school behavior and options. I was thinking more about word of mouth; people who feel screwed over, especially to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars of scholarship money lost, tend to be the most vocal people about reputation and trustworthiness. One place potential students turn for advice is current students and alumni, and while they would probably still say they love the school overall, I'm sure they'd warn anyone with great grades not to ED or to trust the school when it says it'll give scholarships to ED students. That would act as a deterrent... Then those students would go to Michigan, GULC, and Cornell, and tell people who ask them for advice they love it there and, hey, at least they didn't get screwed by EDing to UVA which they felt they had to do to get in there...

Reputations can spread like that even without TLS. The Internet certainly didn't invent discussion of reputation, it just made it so much more readily available.

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rockchalk86
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby rockchalk86 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:34 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
rockchalk86 wrote:So if this move is supposed to kill the law school, why hasn't YP'ing done the same thing? It offers a reason for crazy numbered people not to apply, but they still do. Shouldn't this practice hurt the schools reputation just like their new ED policy?

Guess what, UVA is very highly ranked... people are still going to apply. Most 0L's have no idea what this whole process entails and don't understand these things until they are right in the middle of it. They will still apply, people will still go ED, and this whole crazy thing will start all over again every year.

Say you have 200 ED members in the class. Out of the 1st 100, 40 get scholarships. Out of the second 100, 15 people get scholarships. That is still a significant amount and people will still believe they have a chance of a scholarship if they ED, but they can focus on that last 100 by making much bigger offers to them. They would still offer scholarships to more ED's than most schools, but game their numbers with the last 100. Their reputation would not suffer.

It's adorable how you're still arguing despite not knowing at all what you're talking about. You'll make a good lawyer if you actually start paying attention to facts and relevant issues more when you're in law school than you are now.



How can I make this more simple? Let's think for a moment...
Step 1 - Why would UVA create this new ED policy? Is it for the students... no. Is it to supposedly have more control of the class size... I don't think this would help. The only reason that makes any logical sense is that they want more people who they don't have to offer scholarships to. By doing so, they can focus on getting really high numbered people by having more freed up money to offer them. This would increase LSAT and GPA medians and selectivity, which would in turn increase their rankings. Plus they would have still offered enough scholarships to ED's to not ruin their reputation. If they offer the same number of scholarships to ED's as in previous years, they don't have to tell us that the number of ED acceptances increased. They still maintain the reputation.

Step 2- rankings go up, alums see that the school is on the rise, and more donations come in. And if we are talking long term, theoretically, crazy numbered people probably have more of a chance of making more money in the future than average numbered people if the LSAT really is indicative of someone's chance of being successful in law school. This would mean that the 20 year plan has richer alumni with more money to donate... but I digress.

Step 3- Next year's cycle. People still apply because it is UVA and their ranking has not only increased, but it's freakin UVA! C'mon... do any of you really think people will not apply, and not apply ED if they really want it and need the boost. Most people go into the ED decision with the knowledge that they probably will not get a significant scholarship. And most people that ED are not crazy numbered people and really need the boost anyways so money is probably not their main concern anyway. How many people say they ED'd Virginia because they think they will get money?

Reputation is not destroyed, rankings go up, more money funneled into the school... sounds like a win.
Last edited by rockchalk86 on Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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vanwinkle
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:36 pm

rockchalk86 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
rockchalk86 wrote:So if this move is supposed to kill the law school, why hasn't YP'ing done the same thing? It offers a reason for crazy numbered people not to apply, but they still do. Shouldn't this practice hurt the schools reputation just like their new ED policy?

Guess what, UVA is very highly ranked... people are still going to apply. Most 0L's have no idea what this whole process entails and don't understand these things until they are right in the middle of it. They will still apply, people will still go ED, and this whole crazy thing will start all over again every year.

Say you have 200 ED members in the class. Out of the 1st 100, 40 get scholarships. Out of the second 100, 15 people get scholarships. That is still a significant amount and people will still believe they have a chance of a scholarship if they ED, but they can focus on that last 100 by making much bigger offers to them. They would still offer scholarships to more ED's than most schools, but game their numbers with the last 100. Their reputation would not suffer.

It's adorable how you're still arguing despite not knowing at all what you're talking about. You'll make a good lawyer if you actually start paying attention to facts and relevant issues more when you're in law school than you are now.



How can I make this more simple? Let's think for a moment...
Step 1 - Why would UVA create this new ED policy? Is it for the students... no. Is it to supposedly have more control of the class size... I don't think this would help. The only reason that makes any logical sense is that they want more people who they don't have to offer scholarships to. By doing so, they can focus on getting really high numbered people by having more freed up money to offer them. This would increase LSAT and GPA medians and selectivity, which would in turn increase their rankings. Plus they would have still offered enough scholarships to ED's to not ruin their reputation. If they offer the same number of scholarships to ED's as in previous years, they don't have to tell us that the number of ED acceptances increased. They still maintain the reputation.

Step 2- rankings go up, alums see that the school is on the rise, and more donations come in. And if we are talking long term, theoretically, crazy numbered people probably have more of a chance of making more money in the future than average numbered people if the LSAT really is indicative of someone's chance of being successful in law school. This would mean that the 20 year plan has richer alumni with more money to donate... but I digress.

Step 3- Next year's cycle. People still apply because it is UVA and their ranking has not only increased, but it's freakin UVA! C'mon... do any of you really think people will not apply, and apply ED if they really want it and need the boost. Most people go into the ED decision with the knowledge that they probably will not get a significant scholarship. And most people that ED are not crazy numbered people and really need the boost anyways so money is probably not their main concern anyway. How many people say they ED'd Virginia because they think they will get money?

Reputation is not destroyed, rankings go up, more money funneled into the school... sounds like a win.

Now we have gone from adorable to just really, really sad. You can stop embarrassing yourself any time you want now.

big6
Posts: 7
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby big6 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:39 pm

Maybe I'm mistaken- not an uncommon occurrence- but I don't recall seeing an optional "Why UVA?" essay included in the application instructions/materials. Can you verify whether there is in fact such an essay? I would have absolutely submitted one.


showNprove wrote:A few things:

1. People are overestimating the impact of the elimination of the ED deadline, and I think a lot of that has to do with TLS 0L's feeding into each other's paranoia. ED has never been a major source of matriculants, and there is no reason to believe that this will change things. Last year, only about 15% of those who matriculated had applied ED. Even if the number of ED applications double, more than 70% of Virginia's admits will be RD applicants.

2. "Why UVA?" essays are still important. Virginia understands that people with good numbers will want to keep their options open, but they do look for people who have a sincere interest in UVA, even if it is not their top choice. They know scholarships, etc, will come into play, which is why they make scholarship offers. If someone with a 173/3.85 shows his interest by writing an optional essay, UVA will probably figure that a scholarship will only make that person even more willing to come. If you're going to make an admission or scholarship offer to someone, and only about 15% of your class is coming from the ED pool, you better believe that people with high numbers are still going to get looked at.

3. A rise in ED applicants will not lower the total amount of scholarship money given. The primary reason--if not the sole reason--Virginia is ranked 10th instead of 6th is expenditures per student. They know this, and the admissions office is going to use all of the funds they are allotted. If an ED candidate only gets $10k/yr when he would have gotten $15k/yr, there will be an RD candidate who gets $30k/yr instead of $25k/yr--if that even happens. I haven't heard/seen anything to believe that ED applicants do receive (statistically) significantly less money than what they would have RD. In any case, dispersing all of the scholarship money helps Virginia.


If you have high numbers, don't come off as a jerk in your application, and show an interest in Virginia, you will likely get in without ED --and possibly with a scholarship. All of the paranoia is a bit overdone.

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rockchalk86
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Re: UVA 2010, RD

Postby rockchalk86 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:44 pm

Vanwinkle... I am complimenting your school for their brilliant strategy so I am not sure why you are so rude and think I am embarrassing myself. Why would UVA do this? Give me one reason that does not involve rankings and money. To make students happier? People are pissed about this. To control class size? This move is neutral in that regard... so why?




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