William & Mary

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APHill
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Re: William & Mary

Postby APHill » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:31 am

go William and Mary!!! Still #1!!! I mean still #28!!!!!

W&M has been pretty stable in the rankings in the last 15 or so years, but overall has been moving up.

The fact that we are still beating our closest regional competitor - W&L (former #19....) - is quite pleasant. The new 3L program is definitely a dud.

My other choice - UofR - has gotten a lot closer to TTT also....

Bailarina08
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Re: William & Mary

Postby Bailarina08 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:55 am

I have my meeting with Dean Wixson on Friday. Does anyone have words of wisdom to share? I know it doesn't technically influence the decision, but I want to be on top of things anyway.

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84Sunbird2000
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Re: William & Mary

Postby 84Sunbird2000 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:46 am

Still leaning towards William and Mary after my final visit at IUB, but I'm waiting until they announce the 2010-11 tuition at William and Mary. I'm irrationally afraid of a UC-system style raise which would change the calculus radically.

jillybeans688
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Re: William & Mary

Postby jillybeans688 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:02 pm

Sent in my form to accept my graduate fellowship today!

ausoccer19
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Re: William & Mary

Postby ausoccer19 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:06 pm

I have my meeting with Dean Wixson on Friday. Does anyone have words of wisdom to share? I know it doesn't technically influence the decision, but I want to be on top of things anyway.


Also have a meeting coming up (23rd). Interested in advice as well. Thanks in advance. :D

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APHill
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Re: William & Mary

Postby APHill » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:25 pm

84Sunbird2000 wrote:Still leaning towards William and Mary after my final visit at IUB, but I'm waiting until they announce the 2010-11 tuition at William and Mary. I'm irrationally afraid of a UC-system style raise which would change the calculus radically.


lol man there is no fiscal crisis in Virginia, like there is in California (which was the main reason for tuition hikes...)

Expect 8% increase max.

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Spaceman Spiff
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Re: William & Mary

Postby Spaceman Spiff » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:13 pm

APHill wrote:go William and Mary!!! Still #1!!! I mean still #28!!!!!

W&M has been pretty stable in the rankings in the last 15 or so years, but overall has been moving up.

The fact that we are still beating our closest regional competitor - W&L (former #19....) - is quite pleasant. The new 3L program is definitely a dud.

My other choice - UofR - has gotten a lot closer to TTT also....


I'm not too sure what I think about the 3L program, but it's pretty clear that the drop in the rankings had nothing to do with it. W&L's peer assessment score is the same as W&M's, and W&L's lawyer/judge assessment score is higher. It seems like the difference is related to employment at 9 months, bar passage rate, and W&M's slightly lower acceptance rate. I'm trying to decide between the two (and WUSTL), but as far as I can tell, the 3rd year has been pretty well received, and the two schools are near identical in reputation.

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APHill
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Re: William & Mary

Postby APHill » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:43 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
APHill wrote:go William and Mary!!! Still #1!!! I mean still #28!!!!!

W&M has been pretty stable in the rankings in the last 15 or so years, but overall has been moving up.

The fact that we are still beating our closest regional competitor - W&L (former #19....) - is quite pleasant. The new 3L program is definitely a dud.

My other choice - UofR - has gotten a lot closer to TTT also....


I'm not too sure what I think about the 3L program, but it's pretty clear that the drop in the rankings had nothing to do with it. W&L's peer assessment score is the same as W&M's, and W&L's lawyer/judge assessment score is higher. It seems like the difference is related to employment at 9 months, bar passage rate, and W&M's slightly lower acceptance rate. I'm trying to decide between the two (and WUSTL), but as far as I can tell, the 3rd year has been pretty well received, and the two schools are near identical in reputation.


if the difference is partially in W&M being more selective how come W&L cannot be more selective with a fee waiver for everyone? :? Puzzling.
I agree that on a regional level overall the two schools are still peers, but if you look at historical ratings W&M started at 35 or so and has been fairly consistently edging up the list all these years. While W&L has been edging steadily down the list from 19th to 34th....I think one has to be careful about W&L.

Where did you see that the 3L program was well accepted? I would be mortified if I was in the new 3L program. Here is what will happen. You will have 200 elective and will only be able to choose 6 or 7 of them. During 3L nobody will do any work or will learn a whole lot. Everybody will likely get As for the practicum regardless of ability or personal effort. Diluting the academic core of law school with a one year practicum (in Lexinton VA? :roll: ) sounds just like a dud. Their dean has got his brownie points for his idea and has left, now the W&L will likely have to fund his fat Furman salary.

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Spaceman Spiff
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Re: William & Mary

Postby Spaceman Spiff » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:04 pm

APHill wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
APHill wrote:go William and Mary!!! Still #1!!! I mean still #28!!!!!

W&M has been pretty stable in the rankings in the last 15 or so years, but overall has been moving up.

The fact that we are still beating our closest regional competitor - W&L (former #19....) - is quite pleasant. The new 3L program is definitely a dud.

My other choice - UofR - has gotten a lot closer to TTT also....


I'm not too sure what I think about the 3L program, but it's pretty clear that the drop in the rankings had nothing to do with it. W&L's peer assessment score is the same as W&M's, and W&L's lawyer/judge assessment score is higher. It seems like the difference is related to employment at 9 months, bar passage rate, and W&M's slightly lower acceptance rate. I'm trying to decide between the two (and WUSTL), but as far as I can tell, the 3rd year has been pretty well received, and the two schools are near identical in reputation.


if the difference is partially in W&M being more selective how come W&L cannot be more selective with a fee waiver for everyone? :? Puzzling.
I agree that on a regional level overall the two schools are still peers, but if you look at historical ratings W&M started at 35 or so and has been fairly consistently edging up the list all these years. While W&L has been edging steadily down the list from 19th to 34th....I think one has to be careful about W&L.

Where did you see that the 3L program was well accepted? I would be mortified if I was in the new 3L program. Here is what will happen. You will have 200 elective and will only be able to choose 6 or 7 of them. During 3L nobody will do any work or will learn a whole lot. Everybody will likely get As for the practicum regardless of ability or personal effort. Diluting the academic core of law school with a one year practicum (in Lexinton VA? :roll: ) sounds just like a dud. Their dean has got his brownie points for his idea and has left, now the W&L will likely have to fund his fat Furman salary.


Well, this is the first year of the free application, so any effect it has will obviously not be seen until the 2012 rankings. Also, a climb from 35 to to a six-way tie at 28 isn't exactly a strong upward trend. Theoretically, the tie could break with W&M at 33. I agree that a decline from 19 to 34 in six years isn't a great sign, but I care a lot more about the school's actual reputation than the ranking.

As far as the 3rd year program, I've talked to lawyers and law professors, all of whom seemed to think it was a step in the right direction. To quote, "During 3L nobody will do any work or will learn a whole lot." As far as I know, this is what usually happens in the third year at just about every school. I'm not necessarily defending the program, as I'm somewhat skeptical. However, it seems like most law students, professors, and lawyers think 3L is mostly worthless. Look at W&L's program and I think you'll find a lot more to it than a year-long practicum in Lexington. Also, it wasn't the dean's idea, and he wasn't really in charge of implementation. He was a salesman, and the sale is complete. As far as I'm concerned, it's a non-issue.

Anyway, I'm undecided and actually leaning toward WUSTL, though I'm not sure about the Midwest (STL in particular). However, I visited W&L, liked it, and give them credit for trying to shake things up. Sorry to drag the topic a bit off track.

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APHill
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Re: William & Mary

Postby APHill » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:10 pm

No problem. What I am trying to say - if noone is doing anything as 3L anyways, taking actual courses is a way to keep students accountable for their 3L, while in a practicum environment it will be a lot more difficult.

I am very sceptical about the W&L's program because I have been in school for a while and have participated in multiple practicums (one was working in an actual law office for a semester as part of a Paralegal Program). You come into the office and sit behind the computer for about 8 hours. You might get a legal research task or two but generally lawyers do not want to get you too involved because you are there for a few months as an intern and not really accountable for consequences of your mistakes (maybe slightly gradewise, but consequences of your error for attorneys are a lot more drastic). You keep a log of what you did every day (which is hard because they dont really give you any work :oops: ). Once a week you meet with your practicum group for 30 minutes and discuss your week. At the end the attorney writes a great evaluation for you and issues an A (because you kind of did some work for free for them, and they feel bad for not paying you :roll: ).

I would rather take 3 or 4 challenging top level legal courses and get relatively easy A's (because all the people with jobs are laid back and lazy now :twisted: ), seriously.
Good luck with you decision!!!!

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T14_Scholly
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Re: William & Mary

Postby T14_Scholly » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:18 pm

APHill wrote:Where did you see that the 3L program was well accepted? I would be mortified if I was in the new 3L program. Here is what will happen. You will have 200 elective and will only be able to choose 6 or 7 of them. During 3L nobody will do any work or will learn a whole lot. Everybody will likely get As for the practicum regardless of ability or personal effort. Diluting the academic core of law school with a one year practicum (in Lexinton VA? :roll: ) sounds just like a dud. Their dean has got his brownie points for his idea and has left, now the W&L will likely have to fund his fat Furman salary.


LOL - sounds like you are well-informed about the subject.

lawlife2010
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Re: William & Mary

Postby lawlife2010 » Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:51 am

Has anyone on the WL heard anything yet?

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tommytahoe
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Re: William & Mary

Postby tommytahoe » Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:37 pm

lawlife2010 wrote:Has anyone on the WL heard anything yet?

That's a good question. Also, does anyone know just how big a waitlist W&M normally uses? Are they known to not even have one some years, like UVA?

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84Sunbird2000
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Re: William & Mary

Postby 84Sunbird2000 » Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:29 pm

Well, it's settled. Barring an acceptance from Cornell, I'll be at William and Mary! I'm quite excited. Now it's on to finding an apartment.

Bailarina08
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Re: William & Mary

Postby Bailarina08 » Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:21 pm

I visited earlier this week and they didn't give me specifics about the WL, but have said that this year is really different in terms of numbers, so they can't accurately compare it to WL stats from other years.
Last edited by Bailarina08 on Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

sdb444
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Re: William & Mary

Postby sdb444 » Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:46 pm

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Last edited by sdb444 on Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tommytahoe
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Re: William & Mary

Postby tommytahoe » Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:49 pm

Bailarina08 wrote:I visited earlier this week and they didn't give me specifics about the WL, but have said that this year is really different in terms of numbers, so they can't accurately compare it to WL stats from other years.

Has anyone who's WL'ed visited and had an admissions dean say anything about their application, or has it all been general stuff bout the WL?


Did they mention in what way(s) is it different from previous years' waitlists? Or, if you didn't get that nugget of info., do you know what was the nature of the waitlists of previous years?

I am not really in tune with how big or small a normal W&M waitlist is.

Bailarina08
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Re: William & Mary

Postby Bailarina08 » Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:55 pm

tommytahoe wrote:
Did they mention in what way(s) is it different from previous years' waitlists? Or, if you didn't get that nugget of info., do you know what was the nature of the waitlists of previous years?

I am not really in tune with how big or small a normal W&M waitlist is.


They didn't give me any indication at all. They just said you can't compare any one year to another, since each year is different.

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tommytahoe
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Re: William & Mary

Postby tommytahoe » Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:05 pm

Bailarina08 wrote:
tommytahoe wrote:
Did they mention in what way(s) is it different from previous years' waitlists? Or, if you didn't get that nugget of info., do you know what was the nature of the waitlists of previous years?

I am not really in tune with how big or small a normal W&M waitlist is.


They didn't give me any indication at all. They just said you can't compare any one year to another, since each year is different.

Right. Well, it's a small class size, so to the extent that they actually go to the list, I imagine the openings will not be too many. I wonder also how big the list has gotten. I have heard that some schools can create positively massive lists in any given year.

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APHill
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Re: William & Mary

Postby APHill » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:29 pm

It is April 18th and W&M Class of '13 facebook page has only 62 members (some of them 2L mentors), so all might not be lost for WL...

krispykitten
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Re: William & Mary

Postby krispykitten » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:44 pm

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Last edited by krispykitten on Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tommytahoe
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Re: William & Mary

Postby tommytahoe » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:49 pm

krispykitten wrote:
APHill wrote:It is April 18th and W&M Class of '13 facebook page has only 62 members (some of them 2L mentors), so all might not be lost for WL...


Well, not to be a downer, but they still haven't approved my request to join :( But hopefully you're right.

Yeah, I'd love to believe that each and every admit joins up without delay. I'm sure many do. I'm sure many tell their florist about the acceptance in excitement. But 62 doesn't tell me anything.

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2010law
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Re: William & Mary

Postby 2010law » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:06 am

my request to join has been pending for a few weeks.

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APHill
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Re: William & Mary

Postby APHill » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:25 pm

krispykitten wrote:
APHill wrote:It is April 18th and W&M Class of '13 facebook page has only 62 members (some of them 2L mentors), so all might not be lost for WL...


Well, not to be a downer, but they still haven't approved my request to join :( But hopefully you're right.


I certainly am not saying that there are 62 or so people who have deposited, but most people would probably join the group quickly to get a leg up in finding apt and stuff.

My request was approved overnight, that is odd that you guys are still pending. But Jennifer Thurston was (is?) on vacation.

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84Sunbird2000
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Re: William & Mary

Postby 84Sunbird2000 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:18 am

New in-state tuition is $23,800 and out-of-state $33,800. That's a pretty high rate of increase - nearly 10% for in-state....arggh. I just hate debt so much, and this now means I can safely predict an extra $8k or so over the next 3 years.




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