Yale 2010

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lawyering
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby lawyering » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:12 pm

Pausanias wrote:
T14_Scholly wrote:
Pausanias wrote:Not to interrupt the scintillating banter, but I just came across this excellent article on the NFL SCOTUS case, published in YLJ (natch), herehttp://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/1209mccannamericanneedle.pdf He persuasively argues against the NFL's position.

It's written by a guy who may have the greatest job on the planet: in addition to being a law prof, he is also the legal analyst for ESPN and SI, and is a frequent talking head on TV, giving the legal side of sports. Wow.


Natch is word that only tools use.


Same with indefinite articles, apparently.


hee hee. only on the YLS thread ;-)

dream
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby dream » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:54 pm

Just went complete so joining the thread. This is completely a different atmosphere from the other waiting threads lol.

So is it safe to say that the yale twitter is accurate in letting people know when they give out calls?

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Veritas2010
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby Veritas2010 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:12 pm

dream wrote:Just went complete so joining the thread. This is completely a different atmosphere from the other waiting threads lol.

So is it safe to say that the yale twitter is accurate in letting people know when they give out calls?



Yup. It's accurate alright and a major cause of ulcers in TLSers who are waiting to hear back!
Good luck with your app!

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CardinalRules
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby CardinalRules » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:41 pm

dream wrote:Just went complete so joining the thread. This is completely a different atmosphere from the other waiting threads lol.

So is it safe to say that the yale twitter is accurate in letting people know when they give out calls?


Yes, they even update it on Saturdays when they call. It's safe to say that there will be no calls on a day when there is no update.

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CardinalRules
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby CardinalRules » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:40 pm

Peter North wrote:
Then again, for all we know... the other schools have some no-name "gatekeeper" in the admissions office filtering applications left, right and center...


It seems as though many of them have these people.

I wonder how Asha feels about being labeled a "no-name 'gatekeeper.'"

dream
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby dream » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:44 pm

I was under the impression that our apps were read by three different faculty members so not just dean Asha...

Btw thanks guys! Good luck too! :D

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Dignan
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby Dignan » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:56 pm

dream wrote:I was under the impression that our apps were read by three different faculty members so not just dean Asha...

As I understand things, Asha takes a first pass at all apps. Many get rejected without going to faculty review. A few (50 to 60, I think) get accepted straight-up. Those that fall in the middle go to three different faculty members for consideration

So, yes, one person does have a significant impact on the process at Yale. But, as CardinalRules says, I think this is common in law school admissions.

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CardinalRules
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby CardinalRules » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:18 am

Dignan wrote:
dream wrote:I was under the impression that our apps were read by three different faculty members so not just dean Asha...

As I understand things, Asha takes a first pass at all apps. Many get rejected without going to faculty review. A few (50 to 60, I think) get accepted straight-up. Those that fall in the middle go to three different faculty members for consideration

So, yes, one person does have a significant impact on the process at Yale. But, as CardinalRules says, I think this is common in law school admissions.


In general, the Yale model is not very different from the Berkeley method, in which Dean Tom filters applications before sending a middle group to faculty review. However, I have the impression that Asha makes many fewer decisions than Dean Tom (especially on the acceptance category) and that a much larger proportion of files go to the faculty.

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Dignan
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby Dignan » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:22 am

CardinalRules wrote:
Dignan wrote:
dream wrote:I was under the impression that our apps were read by three different faculty members so not just dean Asha...

As I understand things, Asha takes a first pass at all apps. Many get rejected without going to faculty review. A few (50 to 60, I think) get accepted straight-up. Those that fall in the middle go to three different faculty members for consideration

So, yes, one person does have a significant impact on the process at Yale. But, as CardinalRules says, I think this is common in law school admissions.


In general, the Yale model is not very different from the Berkeley method, in which Dean Tom filters applications before sending a middle group to faculty review. However, I have the impression that Asha makes many fewer decisions than Dean Tom (especially on the acceptance category) and that a much larger proportion of files go to the faculty.

I think that's right on both counts. At Berkeley, about 75% are accepted by the admissions office while the remaining 25% are accepted via committee review. At Yale, those numbers are reversed (give or take).

r6_philly
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby r6_philly » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:49 am

Peter North wrote:
Agreed. My qualm was in the sense that YLS is quite vocal about their taking 'everything' (not just LSAT/GPA) in to consideration approach towards admissions, yet only one single person is doing that. I'm not suggesting that A.R. has any predisposed biases, but even if she did, she'd use that bias in a blanket fashion against all applicants who didn't fit a certain mold... and they'd get dinged as a result. This is why I'd much prefer at the very least have two eyes and ears review/filter all applications before it heads to a faculty review.

On contrary, YLS (much like HLS) has admitted people with perfect 180s all the way down to 140s on the LSAT and a wide range of GPAs, etc. so anything is possible. I guess they do have a way of looking at 'everything'. :)


I am sure you are going to get 2 eyes and ears to review your file at Yale :wink:

r6_philly
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby r6_philly » Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:01 am

I like the blog, I got really good info from it. One of many reasons why I like Yale. I am more worried about how she will like my English since it's my second language. I have to hear "chinglish" jokes at home pretty much everyday :lol: there is nothing like having a 3rd grader point out that you missed a "s" or "ed" in public. Priceless!

r6_philly
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby r6_philly » Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:03 am

It must be late for you :lol: don't you think I already read that since my name is the first one listed? I think you should be off to bed! :mrgreen:

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Veritas2010
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby Veritas2010 » Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:15 pm

Peter North wrote:See... this is the trouble I have with YLS' admissions process. The Dean of Admissions is the ultimate "gatekeeper" so to speak. She is the only one who decides as to which application gets to the faculty review stage, etc. etc. etc. On first read, if she doesn't like your app, you're fucked...

It's pretty amusing how YLS portrays itself to be a bastion of giving "everything" (not just LSAT/GPA) full consideration, yet they have this ONE PERSON making the ultimate decision on a file... talk about making arbitrary decisions... :roll:

Then again, for all we know... the other schools have some no-name "gatekeeper" in the admissions office filtering applications left, right and center...



OMG! I love you for saying that. I was too afraid to ever voice that thought, but I always worried about the fate of 4000+ people being in the hands of ONE person. What if they're having a bad day? Or just don't like one little thing about the person?

Interestingly enough, I know someone from a so-so school who got into Yale last year with good grades, a low 160 LSAT, some ECs, honors, etc. and this year another person from the same school got dinged (they had a slightly better LSAT, same GPA and far better ECs and honors). Now I'm assuming that the LOR and essays were about the same but they were from the same profs etc. So if the Dean is consistent, I wonder why this year's applicant got rejected? (just speculating)

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tomhobbes
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby tomhobbes » Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:21 pm

Veritas2010 wrote:
Peter North wrote:See... this is the trouble I have with YLS' admissions process. The Dean of Admissions is the ultimate "gatekeeper" so to speak. She is the only one who decides as to which application gets to the faculty review stage, etc. etc. etc. On first read, if she doesn't like your app, you're fucked...

It's pretty amusing how YLS portrays itself to be a bastion of giving "everything" (not just LSAT/GPA) full consideration, yet they have this ONE PERSON making the ultimate decision on a file... talk about making arbitrary decisions... :roll:

Then again, for all we know... the other schools have some no-name "gatekeeper" in the admissions office filtering applications left, right and center...



OMG! I love you for saying that. I was too afraid to ever voice that thought, but I always worried about the fate of 4000+ people being in the hands of ONE person. What if they're having a bad day? Or just don't like one little thing about the person?

Interestingly enough, I know someone from a so-so school who got into Yale last year with good grades, a low 160 LSAT, some ECs, honors, etc. and this year another person from the same school got dinged (they had a slightly better LSAT, same GPA and far better ECs and honors). Now I'm assuming that the LOR and essays were about the same but they were from the same profs etc. So if the Dean is consistent, I wonder why this year's applicant got rejected? (just speculating)


I think it would be foolish to just assume that their essays were of similar quality, and you aren't accounting for the fact that most admitted applicants go through faculty review. It's not all in the hands of one person. Yes, the dean decides which applications make it to the faculty review stage, but for all you know these two people fared differently because they encountered different groups of professors.

In fact, since the guy you know who was admitted got in with a low 160s score, I'm almost 100% sure that he went through faculty review, instead of being a presumptive admit. He was probably just a survivor of the carnage of faculty review. It's like they say in that movie Poseidon: sometimes there's nothing fair about who lives and who dies. Yale's process isn't designed to treat applicants with consistency, it's designed to give professors the students they want.

So, ironically, if you have a complaint about the fairness and consistency of Yale's process, it shouldn't be that too much power is in the hands of one person; it should be that not enough power is in the hands of one person.
Last edited by tomhobbes on Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tamlyric
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby tamlyric » Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:35 pm

tomhobbes wrote:
Veritas2010 wrote:
Peter North wrote:See... this is the trouble I have with YLS' admissions process. The Dean of Admissions is the ultimate "gatekeeper" so to speak. She is the only one who decides as to which application gets to the faculty review stage, etc. etc. etc. On first read, if she doesn't like your app, you're fucked...

It's pretty amusing how YLS portrays itself to be a bastion of giving "everything" (not just LSAT/GPA) full consideration, yet they have this ONE PERSON making the ultimate decision on a file... talk about making arbitrary decisions... :roll:

Then again, for all we know... the other schools have some no-name "gatekeeper" in the admissions office filtering applications left, right and center...



OMG! I love you for saying that. I was too afraid to ever voice that thought, but I always worried about the fate of 4000+ people being in the hands of ONE person. What if they're having a bad day? Or just don't like one little thing about the person?

Interestingly enough, I know someone from a so-so school who got into Yale last year with good grades, a low 160 LSAT, some ECs, honors, etc. and this year another person from the same school got dinged (they had a slightly better LSAT, same GPA and far better ECs and honors). Now I'm assuming that the LOR and essays were about the same but they were from the same profs etc. So if the Dean is consistent, I wonder why this year's applicant got rejected? (just speculating)


I think it would be foolish to just assume that their essays were of similar quality, and you aren't accounting for the fact that most admitted applicants go through faculty review. It's not all in the hands of one person. Yes, the dean decides which applications make it to the faculty review stage, but for all you know these two people fared differently because they encountered different groups of professors.

In fact, since the guy you know who was admitted got in with a low 160s score, I'm almost 100% sure that he went through faculty review, instead of being a presumptive admit. He was probably just a survivor of the carnage of faculty review. It's like they say in that movie Poseidon: sometimes there's nothing fair about who lives and who dies.

So, ironically, if you have a complaint about the fairness and consistency of Yale's process, it shouldn't be that too much power is in the hands of one person; it should be that not enough power is in the hands of one person.

:lol:

Well said! Your namesake would be proud. :wink:

I might add, in response to Mr. North, that what makes a decision arbitrary has little (if anything) to do with the number of people making it.
Last edited by tamlyric on Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dream
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby dream » Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:51 pm

Oh... hmmm well not sure if that is a better thing or a worse thing so I'll just go to my semi- happy place of worrying about getting calls or not and forget other stuff.

But I have to say I agree with tamlyric, whether one person reads it or whether three people read it, it's still subjective... One of the three could have a very bad day as well and fatally wound your app in terms of numbers, and swear the number on THEIR measurement (which as Asha said could be anything - even LSAT writing).

So, one or three = equal nervousness and bad dreams telling me what I already know. My emotional and psychological state has taken a hit since February!

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zabagabe
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby zabagabe » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:16 pm

Note that most schools leave their admissions in the hands of only several people. It's not like peer schools have an entire board of people looking over each and every app. Fortunately, as with any job that requires a lot of judgment and is high stakes, most admissions deans have considerable experience before they get to the place of being the gatekeeper for apps. As others have said, there's definitely subjectivity, but I don't get the sense Yale's process is any more subjective than anywhere else, apart from their relatively lighter emphasis on LSAT/GPA numbers.

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Kronk
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby Kronk » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:32 pm

zabagabe wrote:Note that most schools leave their admissions in the hands of only several people. It's not like peer schools have an entire board of people looking over each and every app. Fortunately, as with any job that requires a lot of judgment and is high stakes, most admissions deans have considerable experience before they get to the place of being the gatekeeper for apps. As others have said, there's definitely subjectivity, but I don't get the sense Yale's process is any more subjective than anywhere else, apart from their relatively lighter emphasis on LSAT/GPA numbers.


I think that Asha's answer to the faculty review question in that blog post actually shows it to be pretty subjective. All the faculty contribute, and each one has their own idea of what a proper applicant is. Some use the writing sample from the LSAT?

All of that sounds pretty subjective.

BenJ
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby BenJ » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:41 pm

Kronk wrote:
zabagabe wrote:Note that most schools leave their admissions in the hands of only several people. It's not like peer schools have an entire board of people looking over each and every app. Fortunately, as with any job that requires a lot of judgment and is high stakes, most admissions deans have considerable experience before they get to the place of being the gatekeeper for apps. As others have said, there's definitely subjectivity, but I don't get the sense Yale's process is any more subjective than anywhere else, apart from their relatively lighter emphasis on LSAT/GPA numbers.


I think that Asha's answer to the faculty review question in that blog post actually shows it to be pretty subjective. All the faculty contribute, and each one has their own idea of what a proper applicant is. Some use the writing sample from the LSAT?

All of that sounds pretty subjective.


His point wasn't that it's not subjective but rather that Yale is no more subjective than other schools. That's certainly true. Even at schools with large adcomms, no more than a handful of people will ever look at your app. That there is such a level of arbitrariness on law school admissions is unfortunate but not avoidable. Schools would have to invest ridiculous resources into enlarging their admissions committees--yet would still admit 90% or more of the same students. It's not worth it for them (and not for us, either, as app fees would skyrocket).

tamlyric
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby tamlyric » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:42 pm

Kronk wrote:
zabagabe wrote:Note that most schools leave their admissions in the hands of only several people. It's not like peer schools have an entire board of people looking over each and every app. Fortunately, as with any job that requires a lot of judgment and is high stakes, most admissions deans have considerable experience before they get to the place of being the gatekeeper for apps. As others have said, there's definitely subjectivity, but I don't get the sense Yale's process is any more subjective than anywhere else, apart from their relatively lighter emphasis on LSAT/GPA numbers.


I think that Asha's answer to the faculty review question in that blog post actually shows it to be pretty subjective. All the faculty contribute, and each one has their own idea of what a proper applicant is. Some use the writing sample from the LSAT?

All of that sounds pretty subjective.


Subjective how? Is being subjective in the way that Asha describes a bad thing? If so, why?

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Kronk
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby Kronk » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:49 pm

Subjective as in they don't have clearly defined ideas of what they want in a candidate--it is subjective based on what any given member of the committee is looking for. One person could give a multiple LSAT person a 2 because he / she has a very low average LSAT for Yale, and another person could give them a 4 because they have a great high LSAT and great softs.

I don't think it's bad. I just think it is more subjective than many, many schools that have just one person looking over most of the applicants.

tamlyric
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby tamlyric » Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:00 pm

Kronk wrote:Subjective as in they don't have clearly defined ideas of what they want in a candidate--it is subjective based on what any given member of the committee is looking for. One person could give a multiple LSAT person a 2 because he / she has a very low average LSAT for Yale, and another person could give them a 4 because they have a great high LSAT and great softs.

I don't think it's bad. I just think it is more subjective than many, many schools that have just one person looking over most of the applicants.


I see. I am still a bit confused though.

1) Why think that a collective decision being made among faculty with different standards of evaluation is more subjective than a decision being made by a single person? Isn't the single person's standards just as subjective as each of the members in a collective decision?

2) You don't think it's bad for admissions to be subjective, but do you think subjective admissions decisions are any more legitimate than objective admissions decisions? I only ask because it seems many people use "subjective" as a term to deride illegitimate or arbitrary ways of making decisions.

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Re: Yale 2010

Postby tomhobbes » Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:09 pm

BenJ wrote:
Kronk wrote:
zabagabe wrote:Note that most schools leave their admissions in the hands of only several people. It's not like peer schools have an entire board of people looking over each and every app. Fortunately, as with any job that requires a lot of judgment and is high stakes, most admissions deans have considerable experience before they get to the place of being the gatekeeper for apps. As others have said, there's definitely subjectivity, but I don't get the sense Yale's process is any more subjective than anywhere else, apart from their relatively lighter emphasis on LSAT/GPA numbers.


I think that Asha's answer to the faculty review question in that blog post actually shows it to be pretty subjective. All the faculty contribute, and each one has their own idea of what a proper applicant is. Some use the writing sample from the LSAT?

All of that sounds pretty subjective.


His point wasn't that it's not subjective but rather that Yale is no more subjective than other schools. That's certainly true. Even at schools with large adcomms, no more than a handful of people will ever look at your app. That there is such a level of arbitrariness on law school admissions is unfortunate but not avoidable. Schools would have to invest ridiculous resources into enlarging their admissions committees--yet would still admit 90% or more of the same students. It's not worth it for them (and not for us, either, as app fees would skyrocket).



Yale's process is designed to consistently deliver Yale a great class. It's not designed to treat applicants in a consistent manner. The process is not designed so that if an applicant got in one year, he would probably have gotten in if he had applied the previous year. It's not designed so that two identical applicants will get treated the same way. This is obvious, I think. At other schools, it seems more likely that identical applicants will have identical results. This is true in large part because other schools are more numbers-based.
Last edited by tomhobbes on Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Kronk
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby Kronk » Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:10 pm

Now you're just arguing logic, but I think you get what I'm saying regardless, so are we just debating this to debate? Because I think it's pretty clear:

It's within a system. People are subjective by nature. Nothing is really "objective" in our culture, from what we like about looks to what we like to eat from what we like to believe. So consider each law school its own closed system. Within that system, there can be some degree of objectivity. If one person is reviewing all or most of the applications, everyone gets judged by one standard (the dean of admissions). This can be the definition for "objective." If you have about 60 different standards, like Yale does, that's a hell of a lot more variant, and thus more subjective to what each person wants.

We look at schools like Harvard and Stanford. Harvard accepts almost everyone within a certain index / number range assuming they have no red flag softs. That's pretty objective. But Stanford accepts pretty much everyone with great softs assuming they have no red flag numbers. That's also pretty objective.

Yale does neither. Some people might judge more from a Stanford angle, some more from a Harvard angle. There is no objectivity in the Yale admissions process. There may be some objectivity within each member of the adcomm, but as a whole there isn't much.

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Kronk
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Re: Yale 2010

Postby Kronk » Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:10 pm

I also never equated subjective with legitimate. I don't know where you got that.




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