Berkeley 2010

Share Your Experiences, Read About Other Experiences. Please keep posts organized by school and expected year of graduation.
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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby crackberry » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:46 am

VoidSix wrote:Still on their faculty roster, so probably not. I would refuse to take his classes, though.

Yeah if you're considering Berkeley and don't know about John Yoo, wikipedia him. The guy is uhh controversial, to put it lightly. Some might consider it an "honor" to take classes from him, but I'd be trying not to tear my eyeballs out the whole time.

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CardinalRules
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby CardinalRules » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:03 am

Wow, very interesting.

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:11 am

So I just popped into this thread and then decided to wikipedia John Yoo out of curiosity.

Question for any Law & Order viewers. I don't watch the show, but my mom Tivos it and I've seen like four episodes in my life. Wasn't there one where the DA tried prosecuting fictional members of the Bush administration for conspiracy and torture based on some lawyer's "memo on permissible interrogation techniques"? Based on what I just read on wikipedia, looks like that character was explicitly based on Yoo. Interesting!

owhlcn
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby owhlcn » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:15 am

LieutKaffee wrote:So I just popped into this thread and then decided to wikipedia John Yoo out of curiosity.

Question for any Law & Order viewers. I don't watch the show, but my mom Tivos it and I've seen like four episodes in my life. Wasn't there one where the DA tried prosecuting fictional members of the Bush administration for conspiracy and torture based on some lawyer's "memo on permissible interrogation techniques"? Based on what I just read on wikipedia, looks like that character was explicitly based on Yoo. Interesting!


as a devout L&O'er titcr. excellent episode.

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tintin
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby tintin » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:25 am

i dont think i could take a class with yoo.....i think they should probably get rid of him, actually.

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CardinalRules
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby CardinalRules » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:31 am

[quote="tintin"]i dont think i could take a class with yoo.....


He strikes me as the exact ideological opposite of what I would imagine a Berkeley prof to be.

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emilybeth
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby emilybeth » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:33 am

VoidSix wrote:Yeah it's a spoof.


It's actually not. It happened when Yoo was a visiting professor at Chapman in July.

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AngryAvocado
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby AngryAvocado » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:34 am

managamy wrote:
tintin wrote:i dont think i could take a class with yoo.....


He strikes me as the exact ideological opposite of what I would imagine a Berkeley prof to be.


He is. That's exactly why they hired him.

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby Dignan » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:36 am

managamy wrote:
tintin wrote:i dont think i could take a class with yoo.....


He strikes me as the exact ideological opposite of what I would imagine a Berkeley prof to be.

These days, all the T14 schools--including Harvard and Yale--go out of their way to have at least a couple of "conservative" law profs on their faculty. The schools want ideological diversity.

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bissey
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby bissey » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:39 am

removed for fail.
Last edited by bissey on Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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CardinalRules
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby CardinalRules » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:41 am

Dignan wrote:
managamy wrote:
tintin wrote:i dont think i could take a class with yoo.....


He strikes me as the exact ideological opposite of what I would imagine a Berkeley prof to be.

These days, all the T14 schools--including Harvard and Yale--go out of their way to have at least a couple of "conservative" law profs on their faculty. The schools want ideological diversity.


Makes sense, just surprised me. I was expecting to read the biography of someone radically in the other direction.

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emilybeth
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby emilybeth » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:43 am

bissey wrote:his mother sued him. seems like a good guy.


What are you talking about?

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bissey
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby bissey » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:46 am

emilybeth wrote:
bissey wrote:his mother sued him. seems like a good guy.


What are you talking about?


lol... wrong place. sorry.

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby bilbobaggins » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:22 am

crackberry wrote:
VoidSix wrote:Still on their faculty roster, so probably not. I would refuse to take his classes, though.

Yeah if you're considering Berkeley and don't know about John Yoo, wikipedia him. The guy is uhh controversial, to put it lightly. Some might consider it an "honor" to take classes from him, but I'd be trying not to tear my eyeballs out the whole time.


I don't think students treat Yoo much differently than any other professor. Some of them avoid his classes and I am sure there are a few people who try and take classes with him just to have done it.

Most students disagree with the contents of the memo, but his classes are always full and Boalt doesn't have too many die-hard conservatives. There's a small group of students that thinks he should be fired immediately. I'd say this is a little dramatic, as are some of the responses on this thread.

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SanBun
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby SanBun » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:32 am

bilbobaggins wrote:
crackberry wrote:
VoidSix wrote:Still on their faculty roster, so probably not. I would refuse to take his classes, though.

Yeah if you're considering Berkeley and don't know about John Yoo, wikipedia him. The guy is uhh controversial, to put it lightly. Some might consider it an "honor" to take classes from him, but I'd be trying not to tear my eyeballs out the whole time.


I don't think students treat Yoo much differently than any other professor. Some of them avoid his classes and I am sure there are a few people who try and take classes with him just to have done it.

Most students disagree with the contents of the memo, but his classes are always full and Boalt doesn't have too many die-hard conservatives. There's a small group of students that thinks he should be fired immediately. I'd say this is a little dramatic, as are some of the responses on this thread.


Some countries like Spain are actually preparing to prosecute John Yoo on grounds of legitimizing crimes against humanity. Essentially, if he leaves the country he might get picked up by Spanish authorities (international law allows individual courts as well as the ICC to prosecute on the grounds of universal jurisdiction, which includes torture crimes)

So yes, he is controversial, but had he fallen into the hands of certain authorities, he would also likely be a convicted man by now.

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:33 am

Marketplace of Ideas, baby.

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SanBun
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby SanBun » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:37 am

LieutKaffee wrote:Marketplace of Ideas, baby.


more like the crux of international law. countries are unlikely to prosecute their own nationals, so international law gives third parties the right to do so. Not likely it will ever happen, it's merely a peculiar possibility in Intl law

wow this is great, I just got to apply my knowledge of international law in preparation for my poli sci final tomorrow :)

If i go to berkeley, I'm definitely taking his class

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emilybeth
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby emilybeth » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:40 am

SanBun wrote:
bilbobaggins wrote:
crackberry wrote:
VoidSix wrote:Still on their faculty roster, so probably not. I would refuse to take his classes, though.

Yeah if you're considering Berkeley and don't know about John Yoo, wikipedia him. The guy is uhh controversial, to put it lightly. Some might consider it an "honor" to take classes from him, but I'd be trying not to tear my eyeballs out the whole time.


I don't think students treat Yoo much differently than any other professor. Some of them avoid his classes and I am sure there are a few people who try and take classes with him just to have done it.

Most students disagree with the contents of the memo, but his classes are always full and Boalt doesn't have too many die-hard conservatives. There's a small group of students that thinks he should be fired immediately. I'd say this is a little dramatic, as are some of the responses on this thread.


Some countries like Spain are actually preparing to prosecute John Yoo on grounds of legitimizing crimes against humanity. Essentially, if he leaves the country he might get picked up by Spanish authorities (international law allows individual courts as well as the ICC to prosecute on the grounds of universal jurisdiction, which includes torture crimes)

So yes, he is controversial, but had he fallen into the hands of certain authorities, he would also likely be a convicted man by now.


He didn't do anything illegal. He may have done something unethical. The two are not the same.

Researching the law and writing a memo about what you find is not an illegal act.

All too often I see the discussion around Yoo hinge on conflating the two -- illegal and unethical -- and it doesn't do anything to further the discussion.

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby bilbobaggins » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:41 am

SanBun wrote:
LieutKaffee wrote:Marketplace of Ideas, baby.


more like the crux of international law. countries are unlikely to prosecute their own nationals, so international law gives third parties the right to do so. Not likely it will ever happen, it's merely a peculiar possibility in Intl law

wow this is great, I just got to apply my knowledge of international law in preparation for my poli sci final tomorrow :)

If i go to berkeley, I'm definitely taking his class


Gunning before you even get in!

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SanBun
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby SanBun » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:44 am

emilybeth wrote:He didn't do anything illegal. He may have done something unethical. The two are not the same.

Researching the law and writing a memo about what you find is not an illegal act.

All too often I see the discussion around Yoo hinge on conflating the two -- illegal and unethical -- and it doesn't do anything to further the discussion.


Actually, whether or not he did something illegal would depend on the interpretation of international law by the prosecuting party, hence some national courts are preparing a case

there are people on both sides of the debate so it remains controversial



bilbobaggins wrote:Gunning before you even get in!

:mrgreen:

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby bilbobaggins » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:45 am

SanBun wrote:
emilybeth wrote:He didn't do anything illegal. He may have done something unethical. The two are not the same.

Researching the law and writing a memo about what you find is not an illegal act.

All too often I see the discussion around Yoo hinge on conflating the two -- illegal and unethical -- and it doesn't do anything to further the discussion.


Actually, whether or not he did something illegal would depend on the interpretation of international law by the prosecuting party, hence some national courts are preparing a case

there are people on both sides of the debate so it remains controversial



bilbobaggins wrote:Gunning before you even get in!

:mrgreen:


No, seriously. Not a good thing.

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SanBun
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby SanBun » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:46 am

bilbobaggins wrote:
No, seriously. Not a good thing.


marketplace of ideas, I guess. back to studying for intl law final.

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5ky
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby 5ky » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:47 am

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Last edited by 5ky on Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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emilybeth
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby emilybeth » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:51 am

5ky wrote:
He didn't do anything illegal. He may have done something unethical. The two are not the same.

Researching the law and writing a memo about what you find is not an illegal act.

All too often I see the discussion around Yoo hinge on conflating the two -- illegal and unethical -- and it doesn't do anything to further the discussion.


+1. I tend to agree with you here. Just because he argued that a particular action was legal and protected by the law of the land doesn't mean he is guilty of a crime. Sure, President Bush might have used Yoo as political and legal cover to do what he wanted, but it was the President and not Yoo that did it.

Of course, there may be some nebulous crime of association here of which I am not aware. But still.


I mean, obviously there's a lot I don't know about the situation, and that the public doesn't know. Yoo could very well be guilty of one or several crimes. But we don't know, and as it stands with what we do know -- he wrote a goddamned memo, with abhorrent content, but abhorrent /= illegal -- isn't enough to convict him of anything.

But two people are responsible for that at any one time: first, it was Bush and his AG, for not investigating; now, the onus is on Obama and Holder to begin an investigation to figure out what happened and how.

Until then the culpability, I think, lies with them.

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5ky
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Re: Berkeley 2010

Postby 5ky » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:54 am

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Last edited by 5ky on Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.




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