Columbia 2010

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby of Benito Cereno » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:08 am

psychomohel wrote:
CoaltoNewCastle wrote:
In this image, Harvard has slightly fewer placements in the NLJ 250 (which is a decent metric for what firms are big law), while it has many, many more clerkships. I think a flaw with your reasoning is that most people who do clerkships are just going to go onto regular jobs the year after anyway, which will mostly be Biglaw. The gray area, which is "other firms," is minute for Harvard. You could argue that most of the "other firms" for Columbia are boutiques that pay market rate, but I really don't think they are. Obviously this is speculation too, but I still think it makes more sense.

Also I don't understand what you mean about take-home income being 7-8k higher at Columbia than at Harvard. Does LRAP completely depend on the income/type of job the graduate is doing?


Brian Leiter's law school report contains a ranking based on graduates at elite firms. If you normalize the number of graduates by class size, Columbia does beat out Harvard. Chicago also beats out Harvard when normalized by class size. Harvard and Columbia do roughly have the same number of grads at the elite firms though. Looking through the table, it seems that only Wachtell has more Harvard grads than Columbia grads.

The ranking is here: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

why? well, a number of reasons. more harvard graduates go into 1. high level federal jobs ( state, commerce, sec, fbi, white house counsel, defense department, congressional aids), 2. various other government and political jobs in washington, 3. DA and later on USAO 4. boutique firms 5. corporate, financial, consulting non-law jobs 5. academia 6. and because the Harvard name does travel better and because they don't have the same magnetic pull to NYC, Harvard grads are perhaps more likely to take jobs at top high paying firms outside of top-5 legal markets (perhaps hometown)... I bet you'll find more Harvard grads at the top firms in say LA, SF, Seattle, Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta, Miami, Omaha, Phoenix, Portland, San Diego etc than Columbia grads. I love CLS but its undeniable that Harvard alums are more likely to work outside of NYC, Chicago, DC big-law.

psychomohel
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby psychomohel » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:15 am

of Benito Cereno wrote:why? well, a number of reasons. more harvard graduates go into 1. high level federal jobs ( state, commerce, sec, fbi, white house counsel, defense department, congressional aids), 2. various other government and political jobs in washington, 3. DA and later on USAO 4. boutique firms 5. corporate, financial, consulting non-law jobs 5. academia 6. and because the Harvard name does travel better and because they don't have the same magnetic pull to NYC, Harvard grads are perhaps more likely to take jobs at top high paying firms outside of top-5 legal markets (perhaps hometown)... I bet you'll find more Harvard grads at the top firms in say LA, SF, Seattle, Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta, Miami, Omaha, Phoenix, Portland, San Diego etc than Columbia grads. I love CLS but its undeniable that Harvard alums are more likely to work outside of NYC, Chicago, DC big-law.


I took another look at the rankings, and Harvard and Columbia seem to be pretty even. Leiter gives you how many graduates are working at a particular firm and that firm's location. Inside NYC, there there is only Wachtell where Harvard outnumbers Columbia, and outside of NYC there are a couple of firms where this happens.

I wasn't following the conversation too closely, but I thought V6 was saying that he wanted to work in NYC (and I may be wrong). But, if that is the case, it seems reasonable to choose Columbia over Harvard.

georgina
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby georgina » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:26 am

roll call--

Bai and worry-buddies, anyone with good news?

protokurios
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby protokurios » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:53 am

psychomohel wrote:
of Benito Cereno wrote:why? well, a number of reasons. more harvard graduates go into 1. high level federal jobs ( state, commerce, sec, fbi, white house counsel, defense department, congressional aids), 2. various other government and political jobs in washington, 3. DA and later on USAO 4. boutique firms 5. corporate, financial, consulting non-law jobs 5. academia 6. and because the Harvard name does travel better and because they don't have the same magnetic pull to NYC, Harvard grads are perhaps more likely to take jobs at top high paying firms outside of top-5 legal markets (perhaps hometown)... I bet you'll find more Harvard grads at the top firms in say LA, SF, Seattle, Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta, Miami, Omaha, Phoenix, Portland, San Diego etc than Columbia grads. I love CLS but its undeniable that Harvard alums are more likely to work outside of NYC, Chicago, DC big-law.


I took another look at the rankings, and Harvard and Columbia seem to be pretty even. Leiter gives you how many graduates are working at a particular firm and that firm's location. Inside NYC, there there is only Wachtell where Harvard outnumbers Columbia, and outside of NYC there are a couple of firms where this happens.

I wasn't following the conversation too closely, but I thought V6 was saying that he wanted to work in NYC (and I may be wrong). But, if that is the case, it seems reasonable to choose Columbia over Harvard.


Leiter also links to this 2005 study which takes a more geographically diverse approach to the law firms it includes in the data. The reason I like this one better is because, as Leiter emphasizes, the Vault 25 firms are largely centered in New York and DC, which favors Columbia's placement data. In this study, which tries to follow Leiter's methodology from his 2003 study, shows Harvard beats out Chicago and Columbia, even after accounting for class size. I'm really curious to see if the results would be different using 2010 data.

http://www.calvin.edu/admin/csr/students/sullivan/law/

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puppleberry finn
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby puppleberry finn » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:54 am

georgina wrote:roll call--

Bai and worry-buddies, anyone with good news?


:(

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Kronk
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby Kronk » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:16 pm

puppins wrote:
georgina wrote:roll call--

Bai and worry-buddies, anyone with good news?


:(


It's actually better for us if they don't have good news (assuming we don't have good news either). If they have good news and we don't, that seriously raises our chances of being f'ed.

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puppleberry finn
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby puppleberry finn » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:19 pm

VoidSix wrote:
puppins wrote:
georgina wrote:roll call--

Bai and worry-buddies, anyone with good news?


:(


It's actually better for us if they don't have good news (assuming we don't have good news either). If they have good news and we don't, that seriously raises our chances of being f'ed.


true true. still :(

0L Hoping for 1
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby 0L Hoping for 1 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:20 pm

puppins wrote:
true true. still :(


Pup, lets be real. Your gettin in

georgina
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby georgina » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:20 pm

puppins wrote:
VoidSix wrote:
puppins wrote:
georgina wrote:roll call--

Bai and worry-buddies, anyone with good news?


:(


It's actually better for us if they don't have good news (assuming we don't have good news either). If they have good news and we don't, that seriously raises our chances of being f'ed.


true true. still :(


i like closure better than limbo.

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puppleberry finn
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby puppleberry finn » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:25 pm

0L Hoping for 1 wrote:
puppins wrote:
true true. still :(


Pup, lets be real. Your gettin in


shrug. maybe maybe not. wouldn't be insane for them to reject me.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby somewhatwayward » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:27 pm

i don't think you guys need to be worried bc there were acceptances last year for awhile into february. there is just no way columbia is going to turn down a 180/3.8.

blue5385
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby blue5385 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:47 pm

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Last edited by blue5385 on Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kronk
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby Kronk » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:49 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:i [strike]don't[/strike]think you guys need to be worried bc there were acceptances last year for awhile into [strike]february[/strike] but not very many. [strike]there is just no way columbia is going to turn down a 180/3.8[/strike] Columbia just might reject a 173 / 3.9.


FTFM :cry:

blue5385
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby blue5385 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:52 pm

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Last edited by blue5385 on Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby of Benito Cereno » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:56 pm

So I get very clearly how 2L and 3L years can be shaped by the academic culture and opportunities of the school. But besides YLS with its lack of grades and limited requirements, what really is the difference between 1L year at HLS, CLS, NYU, UofC, Penn, UofM, etc. Is this 1L year just a bunch of pretty generic technical courses and then 2L and 3L years spent on more elective seminars, clinical work, independent research, journals etc. What else is there to the 1L year? At CLS what should one expect of the 1L that is different that a peer school.

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dutchstriker
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby dutchstriker » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:07 pm

protokurios wrote:
psychomohel wrote:
of Benito Cereno wrote:why? well, a number of reasons. more harvard graduates go into 1. high level federal jobs ( state, commerce, sec, fbi, white house counsel, defense department, congressional aids), 2. various other government and political jobs in washington, 3. DA and later on USAO 4. boutique firms 5. corporate, financial, consulting non-law jobs 5. academia 6. and because the Harvard name does travel better and because they don't have the same magnetic pull to NYC, Harvard grads are perhaps more likely to take jobs at top high paying firms outside of top-5 legal markets (perhaps hometown)... I bet you'll find more Harvard grads at the top firms in say LA, SF, Seattle, Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta, Miami, Omaha, Phoenix, Portland, San Diego etc than Columbia grads. I love CLS but its undeniable that Harvard alums are more likely to work outside of NYC, Chicago, DC big-law.


I took another look at the rankings, and Harvard and Columbia seem to be pretty even. Leiter gives you how many graduates are working at a particular firm and that firm's location. Inside NYC, there there is only Wachtell where Harvard outnumbers Columbia, and outside of NYC there are a couple of firms where this happens.

I wasn't following the conversation too closely, but I thought V6 was saying that he wanted to work in NYC (and I may be wrong). But, if that is the case, it seems reasonable to choose Columbia over Harvard.


Leiter also links to this 2005 study which takes a more geographically diverse approach to the law firms it includes in the data. The reason I like this one better is because, as Leiter emphasizes, the Vault 25 firms are largely centered in New York and DC, which favors Columbia's placement data. In this study, which tries to follow Leiter's methodology from his 2003 study, shows Harvard beats out Chicago and Columbia, even after accounting for class size. I'm really curious to see if the results would be different using 2010 data.

http://www.calvin.edu/admin/csr/students/sullivan/law/

8)

BenJ
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby BenJ » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:09 pm

blue5385 wrote:My stomach just twisted into knots when I saw the "IN AT COLUMBIA LAW SCHOOL!!!!!!!!!!" thread get bumped to the top....but alas, it was just someone asking about the binder.


There's probably a new round going out some time this week if last year is any indication. Chin up!

georgina
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby georgina » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:27 pm

BenJ wrote:
There's probably a new round going out some time this week if last year is any indication. Chin up!


yes, let's all look at this guy from last year and feel better. submitted 10/10, accepted 2/19, 4.4 (high but not amazing) index.
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/cameltaur

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Kronk
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby Kronk » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:43 pm

blue5385 wrote:Interesting choice of 'tar, V6.


Inside joke from the USS:BP. Oli, Eviee and I are going to be roommates next year apparently.

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CoaltoNewCastle
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby CoaltoNewCastle » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:02 pm

Do you really think the bottom 20 or so percent at Columbia are just as well off as the bottom 20 or so percent at Harvard in NYC? Harvard is still Harvard and in a normal economy people want Harvard students even if they're near the bottom of their class. No employers actually think Columbia is as good as Harvard, not even Biglawyers in NYC. Yes, this is just speculation, but I still think it's very logical and clear that 1)there are a lot of lurking variables that make it seem like Columbia places as well as or better than Harvard in NYC and 2)Harvard is much more prestigious than Columbia, to everybody.

Also using V5 or V20 firms is silly. If you want to compare the value of your investment in Columbia vs. Harvard, and your goal is Biglaw/a market rate job, you should be looking at what your chances are of getting that kind of job at each school. NLJ250 is a much better way to tell if you'll get a market rate job. I personally will not just be thinking about what happens if I finish in the top 10-20% at the school I end up. What happens if I finish in the bottom 20% (of a group of very, very smart and hard-working people) will be much more important to me.

But even looking at V5 and seeing that Columbia does better, that doesn't mean that a top 10% student at Columbia has a better shot at getting V5 than a top 10% student at Harvard. Top 10% students at Harvard are able to get the unbelievable jobs that transcend Biglaw if they want so I think the reverse of your logic about who Columbia students are competing with is true, because it means that top 10% CLS students are on an even footing with the top 20-25% HLS students who want Biglaw jobs.

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:10 pm

georgina wrote:roll call--

Bai and worry-buddies, anyone with good news?

Nothing yesterday, but the mail hasn't come yet today... I think the snow is slowing things up. Hope is alive!

blue5385
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby blue5385 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:18 pm

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Last edited by blue5385 on Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby of Benito Cereno » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:23 pm

CoaltoNewCastle wrote:Do you really think the bottom 20 or so percent at Columbia are just as well off as the bottom 20 or so percent at Harvard in NYC? Harvard is still Harvard and in a normal economy people want Harvard students even if they're near the bottom of their class. No employers actually think Columbia is as good as Harvard, not even Biglawyers in NYC. Yes, this is just speculation, but I still think it's very logical and clear that 1)there are a lot of lurking variables that make it seem like Columbia places as well as or better than Harvard in NYC and 2)Harvard is much more prestigious than Columbia, to everybody.

Also using V5 or V20 firms is silly. If you want to compare the value of your investment in Columbia vs. Harvard, and your goal is Biglaw/a market rate job, you should be looking at what your chances are of getting that kind of job at each school. NLJ250 is a much better way to tell if you'll get a market rate job. I personally will not just be thinking about what happens if I finish in the top 10-20% at the school I end up. What happens if I finish in the bottom 20% (of a group of very, very smart and hard-working people) will be much more important to me.

But even looking at V5 and seeing that Columbia does better, that doesn't mean that a top 10% student at Columbia has a better shot at getting V5 than a top 10% student at Harvard. Top 10% students at Harvard are able to get the unbelievable jobs that transcend Biglaw if they want so I think the reverse of your logic about who Columbia students are competing with is true, because it means that top 10% CLS students are on an even footing with the top 20-25% HLS students who want Biglaw jobs.


Though I will likely end up at CLS and not HLS, this isn't just self-delusion: I know many many many nyc biglaw partners (the fathers of pretty much every single person I went to school with, nearly every family friend, neighbor etc) and from the many I've spoken to about law school they basically see no difference between CLS and HLS. They see yale as being special (in terms of its intellectualism) but in terms of firm hiring basically see Columbia and Harvard as occupying the same top position. I've asked about this explicitly and even those who attended HLS answered that in the nyc world CLS is seen as about as prestigious as possible. This likely has to do with the fact that everyone works in firms filled with CLS partners etc and its hard to see a school as anything but the best when you're constantly seeing its alums at the top of your universe.
That said, for everything but nyc biglaw go with hls.

Also, I know its super hard to place top 1/3 or top 10% or whatever at a T6 school, but all the children of these gazillions of lawyers I grew up around who now go or graduated from CLS, HLS, NYU, etc (yea, its hard to feel like my accomplishments count for anything) all pretty much stress how stupid or at least unimpressive the average student at all these schools is (YLS students on the other hand say quite the opposite... I know 17 people at yale right now and got dinged this week... not a good feeling). Clearly a lot of this is empty talk and bravado but I do think many over estimate the brilliance of T10 law students and the difficulty of law course work (0L here but I took 9 classes at a T10 law school as an undergraduate because they were cross listed as philosophy or political science graduate courses). I can't speak to 1L courses like torts or property, but from my experience and that of everyone I respect intellectually who I've spoken to, having any serious UG experience working in philosophy, political theory, or government and thus being used to close analytic reading and writing (apparently something MANY law students aren't prepared for) makes law school quite a lot easier than the rumors. My UG was supposedly filled with some of the smartest and most intellectually driven students in the country; however it was obvious in all the introductory survey courses requiring an analytic approach to philosophical texts this kids mostly had no idea what the hell to do, no idea how to read and no idea how to write. Truth is, people always tend to be a lot more mediocre than our expectations.

also, I really don't think they are any opportunities unavailable to a James Kent Scholar at columbia. top 10% at cls can compete for the same boutique, federal, and clerkship jobs that top hls students shoot for.
Last edited by of Benito Cereno on Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

georgina
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby georgina » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:25 pm

blue5385 wrote:
georgina wrote:yes, let's all look at this guy from last year and feel better. submitted 10/10, accepted 2/19, 4.4 (high but not amazing) index.
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/cameltaur


or this person, who makes me feel even better (sent 12/5/08, accepted 4/16/09, relatively low 4.1 index)
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/linda19


but linda19 was put on hold first. we don't want that.

blue5385
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Re: Columbia 2010

Postby blue5385 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:27 pm

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Last edited by blue5385 on Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.




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