Harvard 2010!

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AdmiralNelson
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby AdmiralNelson » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:31 pm

nixxers wrote:That was written by Anit, one of their student bloggers...


Whoops. True! RC fail.

NightHooded
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby NightHooded » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:36 pm

out of curiosity, how many here have HLS as #1? Would getting into Y S or C be any consolation? I ask because I've read some students choose H over Y, and (slightly more predictably) S. Do people want HLS because its Harvard, or more generally, because its part of HYS top tier?

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby of Benito Cereno » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:36 pm

Na_Swatch wrote:
of Benito Cereno wrote:I think Harvard would be well served by favoring high gpas (though this policy would not serve me well) as this would project the image that it is less numbers driven (when people think about diploma-mill's obsessed with numbers they think of the lsat and lsat walls and not schools like Boalt, Yale, or Stanford that are all focused on high gpas).


A point in your favor (your application and not your idea, that is) is that I highly doubt Harvard is very concerned about the "diploma-mill" image. In fact the only place I've ever seen this mentioned is on TLS itself, and I doubt the the actual admissions office/ alumni/ lawyer population holds this perception.

At the ASW, Harvard's dean kept stressing the advantages of such a large program, the connections that a large class can have, and the many classes/clinics that can be offered. I think the general focus is to talk about how much benefit a large law school can provide, not address any concerns about "degree-mill." The shift in emphasis on higher GPAs does seem to be evident this year, but I'm not sure if its accompanied by a decline in the LSAT quartiles.

If there is so much focus on the benefits of being a large school that is most likely the result of anxieties and awareness of popular criticisms and comparisons to its two much smaller competitors. people who constantly talk about their sexual prowess aren't usually defined by a profound sexual comfort and confidence...

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby of Benito Cereno » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:37 pm

NightHooded wrote:out of curiosity, how many here have HLS as #1? Would getting into Y S or C be any consolation? I ask because I've read some students choose H over Y, and (slightly more predictably) S. Do people want HLS because its Harvard, or more generally, because its part of HYS top tier?

HLS has always been number 1 for me (personal reasons and interest in specific professors and programs at HLS).

traficante
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby traficante » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:00 pm

of Benito Cereno wrote:
Na_Swatch wrote:
of Benito Cereno wrote:I think Harvard would be well served by favoring high gpas (though this policy would not serve me well) as this would project the image that it is less numbers driven (when people think about diploma-mill's obsessed with numbers they think of the lsat and lsat walls and not schools like Boalt, Yale, or Stanford that are all focused on high gpas).


A point in your favor (your application and not your idea, that is) is that I highly doubt Harvard is very concerned about the "diploma-mill" image. In fact the only place I've ever seen this mentioned is on TLS itself, and I doubt the the actual admissions office/ alumni/ lawyer population holds this perception.

At the ASW, Harvard's dean kept stressing the advantages of such a large program, the connections that a large class can have, and the many classes/clinics that can be offered. I think the general focus is to talk about how much benefit a large law school can provide, not address any concerns about "degree-mill." The shift in emphasis on higher GPAs does seem to be evident this year, but I'm not sure if its accompanied by a decline in the LSAT quartiles.

If there is so much focus on the benefits of being a large school that is most likely the result of anxieties and awareness of popular criticisms and comparisons to its two much smaller competitors. people who constantly talk about their sexual prowess aren't usually defined by a profound sexual comfort and confidence...


So does Yale talk about its more intimate feel because it secretly wants to be as big as Harvard? ;) I think there are virtues and weaknesses to being big or small, so it makes sense to talk up what you are good at.

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ConMan345
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby ConMan345 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:04 pm

Na_Swatch wrote:
of Benito Cereno wrote:I think Harvard would be well served by favoring high gpas (though this policy would not serve me well) as this would project the image that it is less numbers driven (when people think about diploma-mill's obsessed with numbers they think of the lsat and lsat walls and not schools like Boalt, Yale, or Stanford that are all focused on high gpas).


A point in your favor (your application and not your idea, that is) is that I highly doubt Harvard is very concerned about the "diploma-mill" image. In fact the only place I've ever seen this mentioned is on TLS itself, and I doubt the the actual admissions office/ alumni/ lawyer population holds this perception.

At the ASW, Harvard's dean kept stressing the advantages of such a large program, the connections that a large class can have, and the many classes/clinics that can be offered. I think the general focus is to talk about how much benefit a large law school can provide, not address any concerns about "degree-mill." The shift in emphasis on higher GPAs does seem to be evident this year, but I'm not sure if its accompanied by a decline in the LSAT quartiles.


The hiring partner at my firm referred to HLS as a "mill" the other day.

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby of Benito Cereno » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:04 pm

traficante wrote:
of Benito Cereno wrote:
Na_Swatch wrote:
of Benito Cereno wrote:I think Harvard would be well served by favoring high gpas (though this policy would not serve me well) as this would project the image that it is less numbers driven (when people think about diploma-mill's obsessed with numbers they think of the lsat and lsat walls and not schools like Boalt, Yale, or Stanford that are all focused on high gpas).


A point in your favor (your application and not your idea, that is) is that I highly doubt Harvard is very concerned about the "diploma-mill" image. In fact the only place I've ever seen this mentioned is on TLS itself, and I doubt the the actual admissions office/ alumni/ lawyer population holds this perception.

At the ASW, Harvard's dean kept stressing the advantages of such a large program, the connections that a large class can have, and the many classes/clinics that can be offered. I think the general focus is to talk about how much benefit a large law school can provide, not address any concerns about "degree-mill." The shift in emphasis on higher GPAs does seem to be evident this year, but I'm not sure if its accompanied by a decline in the LSAT quartiles.

If there is so much focus on the benefits of being a large school that is most likely the result of anxieties and awareness of popular criticisms and comparisons to its two much smaller competitors. people who constantly talk about their sexual prowess aren't usually defined by a profound sexual comfort and confidence...


So does Yale talk about its more intimate feel because it secretly wants to be as big as Harvard? ;) I think there are virtues and weaknesses to being big or small, so it makes sense to talk up what you are good at.

true, but I just think there is certainly an awareness on Harvard's part of what people say about the downside of its size and resulting admissions practices. I don't really agree at all with these common criticisms; however, I am very well aware of them and Harvard is too (and naturally is keen to dispel them... no school, no matter how excellent, is above reputation worries).

legalnoeagle
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby legalnoeagle » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:10 pm

ConMan345 wrote:
Na_Swatch wrote:
of Benito Cereno wrote:I think Harvard would be well served by favoring high gpas (though this policy would not serve me well) as this would project the image that it is less numbers driven (when people think about diploma-mill's obsessed with numbers they think of the lsat and lsat walls and not schools like Boalt, Yale, or Stanford that are all focused on high gpas).


A point in your favor (your application and not your idea, that is) is that I highly doubt Harvard is very concerned about the "diploma-mill" image. In fact the only place I've ever seen this mentioned is on TLS itself, and I doubt the the actual admissions office/ alumni/ lawyer population holds this perception.

At the ASW, Harvard's dean kept stressing the advantages of such a large program, the connections that a large class can have, and the many classes/clinics that can be offered. I think the general focus is to talk about how much benefit a large law school can provide, not address any concerns about "degree-mill." The shift in emphasis on higher GPAs does seem to be evident this year, but I'm not sure if its accompanied by a decline in the LSAT quartiles.


The hiring partner at my firm referred to HLS as a "mill" the other day.


I bet he'd hire a HLS grad in a hot minute, though. :wink:

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existenz
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby existenz » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:20 pm

traficante wrote:So does Yale talk about its more intimate feel because it secretly wants to be as big as Harvard? ;) I think there are virtues and weaknesses to being big or small, so it makes sense to talk up what you are good at.

If Yale wanted a class of 200, 300 or 500 they could easily have it. They'd just have to triple their faculty and put up a few more buildings. They would not have any trouble getting students to come.

pissantvache
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby pissantvache » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:24 pm

r6_philly wrote:
pissantvache wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
pissantvache wrote:yeah, well, if this is the case, perhaps their lsat numbers will take a hit. Annoying to have the changes occur this cycle, though


Then I wonder if they are picking all high GPA's or only quality high GPA's. Maybe JR belives in student quality (major/GPA/softs) over numbers quality (LSAT)?


maybe so. and it's clear that a 4.0 170 is just as much on the margin as a 3.8 180, so this really does only affect people at the margins. I just think it's surprising that there would be such a clear (and transparent) shift in the applicant evaluation metrics that seem, at least at first glance, to be entirely rankings-driven, rather than student-quality driven (that is, what is it about a 3.79 vs. a 3.81 that makes the 3.81 so much better? that's a difference of perhaps one course grade. maybe the student was sick that day. sucks)


Wouldn't that arguement be better applied to the LSAT? What if they are actually evaluating the qualify of the coursework/major more than years past? What if they are giving more emphasis on personality/EC/WE because those roughly equal to employablity upon graduation? I think a Harvard degree is a golden ticket to a decent job unless the applicants themselves are not up to par in non-academic capacities. Maybe there is a shift to better graduates than better students. (like PN alluded to a while ago)


Sorry, had to jump off for a while and missed a bunch of responses. In regard to your point above, i'm a little bit hesitant to agree with you, not because i disagree with your point--they could very well be shifting to favor personality/ec/we over lsat--but because the line at 3.8 seems so stark. and i would be stunned if there was some lack that tied together everybody in that yellow grouping in addition to a just-sub-3.8 gpa. On a related point, if there was something really bad that was keeping all of those (us) applicants out, you would expect the profile of other schools to which we were admitted to be substantially worse as well--i.e. you would expect to see a higher failure rate at places like boalt or chicago as well, which I don't think is happening (and certainly didn't in my case, at least)

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby of Benito Cereno » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:36 pm

still waiting. on the beach.

--LinkRemoved--)

Illijah
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby Illijah » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:40 pm

the never ending wait....

I don't understand. They know they have to accept aloooot more AA's before the cycle is finished. Why not start now by accepting me! :mrgreen: I don't even have competing full ride and Yale offers :D

leftofthedial
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby leftofthedial » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:41 pm

of Benito Cereno wrote:still waiting. on the beach.

--LinkRemoved--)


I like this one better. Comfortingly scary...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Beach_%28Neil_Young_album%29

r6_philly
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby r6_philly » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:43 pm

pissantvache wrote:Sorry, had to jump off for a while and missed a bunch of responses. In regard to your point above, i'm a little bit hesitant to agree with you, not because i disagree with your point--they could very well be shifting to favor personality/ec/we over lsat--but because the line at 3.8 seems so stark. and i would be stunned if there was some lack that tied together everybody in that yellow grouping in addition to a just-sub-3.8 gpa. On a related point, if there was something really bad that was keeping all of those (us) applicants out, you would expect the profile of other schools to which we were admitted to be substantially worse as well--i.e. you would expect to see a higher failure rate at places like boalt or chicago as well, which I don't think is happening (and certainly didn't in my case, at least)


Quite alright, I had to go fix a flat tire myself. I am not really saying that anyone who isn't accepted is "bad" is any sort of way, I am saying maybe they are just being more selective in the other areas past the numbers. Other schools have to game the numbers game for rankings a lot more than Harvard. Stanford's number are much lower relatively I don't think they have to worry about falling to #3. At the same time, there is just no realistic expectation that they would overtake Yale even if they have a full class of 180/4.0 like someone else said before. I think maybe after filling out the majority of the class as usual, the borderline candidates are now being reviewed in a different light than years past. If in deed that there is no pressure on ranking/numbers, then they should be focused on admitting students that will most likely to succeed, rather than trying to keep their number margins. Perhaps they are more vulnerable to GPA margin (in the admitted pool) this year that's why they are WL'ing all the sub 3.8's. My strategy for HY has been trying to stand out in the borderline apps all along. Didn't work out for Y, hoping for H. I know I can excel in school and be successful after. I have sufficiently proven that in life. I just don't know if I proved it enough for the schools. (apparently not for Y)

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$1.99
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby $1.99 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:45 pm

anybody feel bad for the guy who majored in music that got waitlisted with a 180/4.0? he's got it bad lol

r6_philly
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby r6_philly » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:45 pm

existenz wrote:
traficante wrote:So does Yale talk about its more intimate feel because it secretly wants to be as big as Harvard? ;) I think there are virtues and weaknesses to being big or small, so it makes sense to talk up what you are good at.

If Yale wanted a class of 200, 300 or 500 they could easily have it. They'd just have to triple their faculty and put up a few more buildings. They would not have any trouble getting students to come.


Would they be able to keep up the faculty quality and the learning quality? If they have the same size as H, it is conceivable that they might fall to #2.

r6_philly
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby r6_philly » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:47 pm

$1.99 wrote:anybody feel bad for the guy who majored in music that got waitlisted with a 180/4.0? he's got it bad lol


He might have gotten a 3.7 if he was in ME? Too bad HS couselors don't do a better job telling people what to major in if they want to be lawyers.

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby of Benito Cereno » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:48 pm

r6_philly wrote:
$1.99 wrote:anybody feel bad for the guy who majored in music that got waitlisted with a 180/4.0? he's got it bad lol


He might have gotten a 3.7 if he was in ME? Too bad HS couselors don't do a better job telling people what to major in if they want to be lawyers.


I have a feeling he didn't go into college expecting to apply to law school.

r6_philly
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby r6_philly » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:52 pm

of Benito Cereno wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
$1.99 wrote:anybody feel bad for the guy who majored in music that got waitlisted with a 180/4.0? he's got it bad lol


He might have gotten a 3.7 if he was in ME? Too bad HS couselors don't do a better job telling people what to major in if they want to be lawyers.


I have a feeling he didn't go into college expecting to apply to law school.


Well then I wouldn't say "he's got it bad". Who knows how many non-music classes he has? No one should feel like they deserve to be admitted by H anyway, even if you have a 185/4.5.

pissantvache
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby pissantvache » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:04 pm

r6_philly wrote:
pissantvache wrote:Sorry, had to jump off for a while and missed a bunch of responses. In regard to your point above, i'm a little bit hesitant to agree with you, not because i disagree with your point--they could very well be shifting to favor personality/ec/we over lsat--but because the line at 3.8 seems so stark. and i would be stunned if there was some lack that tied together everybody in that yellow grouping in addition to a just-sub-3.8 gpa. On a related point, if there was something really bad that was keeping all of those (us) applicants out, you would expect the profile of other schools to which we were admitted to be substantially worse as well--i.e. you would expect to see a higher failure rate at places like boalt or chicago as well, which I don't think is happening (and certainly didn't in my case, at least)


Quite alright, I had to go fix a flat tire myself. I am not really saying that anyone who isn't accepted is "bad" is any sort of way, I am saying maybe they are just being more selective in the other areas past the numbers. Other schools have to game the numbers game for rankings a lot more than Harvard. Stanford's number are much lower relatively I don't think they have to worry about falling to #3. At the same time, there is just no realistic expectation that they would overtake Yale even if they have a full class of 180/4.0 like someone else said before. I think maybe after filling out the majority of the class as usual, the borderline candidates are now being reviewed in a different light than years past. If in deed that there is no pressure on ranking/numbers, then they should be focused on admitting students that will most likely to succeed, rather than trying to keep their number margins. Perhaps they are more vulnerable to GPA margin (in the admitted pool) this year that's why they are WL'ing all the sub 3.8's. My strategy for HY has been trying to stand out in the borderline apps all along. Didn't work out for Y, hoping for H. I know I can excel in school and be successful after. I have sufficiently proven that in life. I just don't know if I proved it enough for the schools. (apparently not for Y)


I think that's fair--and although I would quibble with the point about usnews being entirely rank focused as much as it is perception focused (ie, both stanford and harvard have weak spots in numbers relative to yale--harvard has lower GPA, stanford has lower LSAT, so H could be gunning to make its numbers basically parallel to Y's), i don't know that we're really disagreeing. It's just very annoying to be in the group of people who gets the shaft when the evaluation metrics change.

On the other hand, I hope that the comment about the final graph not looking too different is right--let's hope for huge yields at Y and S!

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby somewhatwayward » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:30 pm

it isn't over for today, is it??

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big_blue79
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby big_blue79 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:30 pm

Just curious as to what date I should use as my completion date. My status checker reflects 2/9 and my complete e-mail was 2/17. So when I see someone 2/14 get WL, I'm not sure if I should be excited or scared.

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Jericwithers
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby Jericwithers » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:34 pm

big_blue79 wrote:Just curious as to what date I should use as my completion date. My status checker reflects 2/9 and my complete e-mail was 2/17. So when I see someone 2/14 get WL, I'm not sure if I should be excited or scared.


I think scared is the emotion to have from here on out, and not just for you but for everyone.

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CG614
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby CG614 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:42 pm

Reject e-mail. :( CLS it is for me... good luck all.

Edit: Yes, just now.
Last edited by CG614 on Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: Harvard 2010!

Postby of Benito Cereno » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:44 pm

.,.,
Last edited by of Benito Cereno on Sat May 22, 2010 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.




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