thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

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DEKOCARDS
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby DEKOCARDS » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:51 am

SoxyPirate wrote:Here on TLS
US News's Top 14
Is all that matters

Beyond T14
TLS'ers recommend
to go fist oneself

How could it be true
that so many smart people
are such f*cknuggets


I'll posit an answer. Most derive meaning in their sad lives from the fact that they got a 170. They think this means they are somehow special and entitled to sheer awe. I go to a school where pretty much everyone scored around 170... we're not that special. Also, the ppl who didn't get a 170 but got into Cornell derive their pleasure from thinking that their school is better than X number of schools simply because USNEWS ranked it more highly. The whole thing is actually so sad and pathetic. Their bubble will almost certainly burst about mid-way through first semester.

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rayiner
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby rayiner » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:55 am

LawandOrder wrote:You certainly are right about it being a case of difference of expectations and outlook on life. You consider $60k starting plus low debt as at least not failing, but if I am going to invest $150,000 in debt plus a similiar forgone amount in income from the three years spent in law school, I think I am fully justified in expecting a job paying deep in to the $100s starting.

I guess I don't get it. I am about a year out of undergrad with one of those "practical majors" making closer to 60 than to 30 and I certainly don't feel like I've succeeded. Why would I want to go to law school and end up in the same position I am now? That's a massive waste of time and money.


Of course I'm right about it being a matter of expectations. The usefulness of an investment is proportional to not just the expected benefit, but to available alternatives. My point is that for most law students, the alternative is not a $60k+ job with room for growth. 85% of most law students majored in something that doesn't involve math. Unless they went to an Ivy or graduated with a 4.0, their prospects are far closer to the $30k figure than the $60k one. Going to a strong Tier1, graduating with less than $90k in debt, and getting a $60k job is a perfectly sensible thing to do.

There is also something to be said about there being more to life than money. I made more than your median lawyer before I even got my BS. Law school will be a huge opportunity cost, but I'll consider myself successful if I just even make par with what my salary would've been if I had just stayed at my job. Because, frankly, I'd rather be a lawyer than an engineer, even if it is going to cost me almost $200k to make the transition.

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dresden doll
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby dresden doll » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:04 am

I heart rayiner for regularly injecting a dosage of sense into threads in dire need of such medicine.

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LawandOrder
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby LawandOrder » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:08 am

SoxyPirate wrote:Here on TLS
US News's Top 14
Is all that matters

Beyond T14
TLS'ers recommend
to go fist oneself

How could it be true
that so many smart people
are such f*cknuggets


I don't know, I get flamed pretty hard when I talk about T14/Else. Good to know that at least some see it in the same way that I do.

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MissMaroon
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby MissMaroon » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:11 am

Don't listen to these people. Like every other decision in life, choosing a law school is a personal one. If you have family and an affordable lifestyle enticing you to go to the Tier 4 school and if those are your priorities, then go there. Honestly, a JD is a JD, and if you truly want to be a lawyer, you just need that degree. I think that outside T-30 or so, you need to have a compelling interest in practicing in that region because otherwise, you probably won't be making big money. But then again, who says money and a soul-sucking corporate job is all everyone is looking for. Basically, if you know what you want to do and know that you can achieve it at the Tier 4 school, don't let any elitists here convince you its not good enough.

Good luck :D

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FrenchiePatootie
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby FrenchiePatootie » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:18 am

MissMaroon wrote:Honestly, a JD is a JD, and if you truly want to be a lawyer, you just need that degree.


Hmmm...sorta. Sure, you can have a JD but if it can't get you a job, then you're not really a lawyer.

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The Evil Genius
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby The Evil Genius » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:19 am

LawandOrder wrote:
rayiner wrote:
LawandOrder wrote:Because Cravath is just itching to get all the laterals from SmallLaw that couldn't make the cut the first time around?


It's hardly Cravath or out.

Yes, if you miss the biglaw cut-off, biglaw is probably out for good, but $60k starting plus low debt is hardly failure at life.

Your contention that non-T14s aren't worth full ride is silly. Even if you're highly risk-averse, anything down to USC is at least worth sticker (unless you think you can't even place 2/3!). With some $$, the whole T50 is worth going to.

You seem to think that most law students have rosy prospects outside of the law with their UG degree. It's some major "grass is greener" mentality. If you have an Ivy degree or a practical major, you might be looking at $50k+ with just your UG. If you don't, then it's more like $30k. At that point, a $60k starting salary + little debt has gotta look pretty good.


You certainly are right about it being a case of difference of expectations and outlook on life. You consider $60k starting plus low debt as at least not failing, but if I am going to invest $150,000 in debt plus a similiar forgone amount in income from the three years spent in law school, I think I am fully justified in expecting a job paying deep in to the $100s starting.

I guess I don't get it. I am about a year out of undergrad with one of those "practical majors" making closer to 60 than to 30 and I certainly don't feel like I've succeeded. Why would I want to go to law school and end up in the same position I am now? That's a massive waste of time and money.


+1

My base salary is in the low 60 region (on a 40 hour week) with no responsibiilty or stress, and I up my salary another 10-20k with overtime each year. Why would I invest in law school to get out making the same (or less) working more hours and with more responsibility. BigLaw or bust.

Mark71121
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby Mark71121 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:24 am

I agree with Law and Order. In fact, I wouldn't even recommend attending a 7-14 without some kind of $$$ in this economy.

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apper123
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby apper123 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:27 am

Many of the people on this thread, and on this board for that matter, talk about the law industry like biglaw is the only thing that exists. Sure, if you want to practice biglaw and biglaw only, then maybe going to a tier 2 isn't such a great idea. Thankfully, I'd say most people who go to law school don't go with biglaw aspirations. I know I'm not.

I'm going to law school because I want to be a lawyer, not because I want to get rich. If I just wanted to go to grad school to get rich, I'd go to med school.

Mase85
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby Mase85 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:34 am

MissMaroon wrote:Don't listen to these people. Like every other decision in life, choosing a law school is a personal one. If you have family and an affordable lifestyle enticing you to go to the Tier 4 school and if those are your priorities, then go there. Honestly, a JD is a JD, and if you truly want to be a lawyer, you just need that degree. I think that outside T-30 or so, you need to have a compelling interest in practicing in that region because otherwise, you probably won't be making big money. But then again, who says money and a soul-sucking corporate job is all everyone is looking for. Basically, if you know what you want to do and know that you can achieve it at the Tier 4 school, don't let any elitists here convince you its not good enough.

Good luck :D


Thank u for your positive perspective and using this topic to reply about the ?s I asked. Thanx!! :)

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Cleareyes
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby Cleareyes » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:37 am

If you want to practice in the region then Widener might not be a bad choice, but I'd wait until all the results are in or the deadline arrives to actually make the decision to go there. At the very least you MIGHT get a scholarship offer elsewhere.

As for the stupid T14 or bust debate, I think it breaks down like this:

If you're going to law school in order to make a lot of money then ranking really does matter. To the extent that people are interested in the big bucks right out of law school it may NOT make sense to attend anything but a high T1. It's not that people don't get biglaw out of other schools, it's that you can't count on it in the same way.

If, on the other hand, you just want to be a lawyer, well, most schools will do that for you. The debt will be more of a burden, your options more limited (Likely to whatever region your school is in, at least at first.) But if practicing law is what you want to do, then it makes sense.

I think that the proper warning is that if you see law school as an investment that will pay high FINANCIAL returns, then paying sticker at something other than a high tier 1 may not make sense. If, on the other hand, you see it as an entry into a career you're interested in, well, you just have to have your eyes open.

misbuble
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby misbuble » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:39 am

MissMaroon wrote:Don't listen to these people. Like every other decision in life, choosing a law school is a personal one. If you have family and an affordable lifestyle enticing you to go to the Tier 4 school and if those are your priorities, then go there. Honestly, a JD is a JD, and if you truly want to be a lawyer, you just need that degree. I think that outside T-30 or so, you need to have a compelling interest in practicing in that region because otherwise, you probably won't be making big money. But then again, who says money and a soul-sucking corporate job is all everyone is looking for. Basically, if you know what you want to do and know that you can achieve it at the Tier 4 school, don't let any elitists here convince you its not good enough.

Good luck :D


incorrect, a J.D. from a Teir 3/4 is worthless, get into a different profession
the lsat is pretty easy, and getting a decent gpa is easy, if you can't do one/both these things, don't expect your personallity to get you into big law firms, they need intellegent motivated people, and not meeting one of these 2 standards means something,

go watch demitri martin's "If I"...that's intellegence, now go to a T3/4 law school, look at your median student, that's an ambulance chaser

it annoys me that people equate this so called elitism with discrimination, sorry your crappy career potential doesn't entice us T14/bust or T1/bust TLS'ers, check the website
Last edited by misbuble on Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:50 am, edited 8 times in total.

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The Evil Genius
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby The Evil Genius » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:40 am

Mase85 wrote:
MissMaroon wrote:Don't listen to these people. Like every other decision in life, choosing a law school is a personal one. If you have family and an affordable lifestyle enticing you to go to the Tier 4 school and if those are your priorities, then go there. Honestly, a JD is a JD, and if you truly want to be a lawyer, you just need that degree. I think that outside T-30 or so, you need to have a compelling interest in practicing in that region because otherwise, you probably won't be making big money. But then again, who says money and a soul-sucking corporate job is all everyone is looking for. Basically, if you know what you want to do and know that you can achieve it at the Tier 4 school, don't let any elitists here convince you its not good enough.

Good luck :D


Thank u for your positive perspective and using this topic to reply about the ?s I asked. Thanx!! :)


The problem is the ABA shouldn't be allowing all these bs law schools to be opened. Years ago doctors/lawyers were similar in respect, stature and salary. Now with all these bs law schools, any individuals believes he can be an attorney. No. You don't see people trying to pull the same shit with med school, because the AMA protected the integrity of their schools. Not everyone is meant to be a lawyer. If you're scoring below the average LSAT score, you shouldn't be in law school. You don't hear someone bombing an MCAT and deciding to go to med school anyway (because no school will accept them). TTTs like Cooley and so forth need to go. Legal education needs a very big reworking.

Mark71121
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby Mark71121 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:46 am

apper123 wrote:Many of the people on this thread, and on this board for that matter, talk about the law industry like biglaw is the only thing that exists. Sure, if you want to practice biglaw and biglaw only, then maybe going to a tier 2 isn't such a great idea. Thankfully, I'd say most people who go to law school don't go with biglaw aspirations. I know I'm not.

I'm going to law school because I want to be a lawyer, not because I want to get rich. If I just wanted to go to grad school to get rich, I'd go to med school.



Paying off $200,000 in loans when you're making $40,000 is never easy regardless of how much you love your job.

toby
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby toby » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:47 am

If you are asking a financial question, the only insight I (as someone who is not even in law school yet) can give is that an older friend of mine went to law school at Howard. He didn't get a job out of law school. He started his own firm and worked for himself his entire career. Now, he is worth millions.

PurpleLoosestrife
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby PurpleLoosestrife » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:47 am

LawandOrder wrote:
sweens005 wrote:
Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important



You're an idiot.


Please share your reasoning with the group, Tommy.


You just said Vanderbilt generally isn't worth attending with a full scholarship. You might be the one who needs to explain their reasoning! :lol:

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LawandOrder
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby LawandOrder » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:51 am

Mark71121 wrote:
apper123 wrote:Many of the people on this thread, and on this board for that matter, talk about the law industry like biglaw is the only thing that exists. Sure, if you want to practice biglaw and biglaw only, then maybe going to a tier 2 isn't such a great idea. Thankfully, I'd say most people who go to law school don't go with biglaw aspirations. I know I'm not.

I'm going to law school because I want to be a lawyer, not because I want to get rich. If I just wanted to go to grad school to get rich, I'd go to med school.



Paying off $200,000 in loans when you're making $40,000 is never easy regardless of how much you love your job.


I can't imagine it's even possible to pay off $200,000 on $40k/yr. For 30 years at a conservative 4.5% rate, that's still $1520/month.

Figure after tax income on $40 is about $30k or so. And we're talking about spending $18,240 on loans leaving us with $11,000 a year to pay for EVERYTHING else. Just not possible.

sweens005
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby sweens005 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:54 am

misbuble wrote:
sweens005 wrote:
It's never worth attending anything tier 3 or 4...but it does raise my self esteem when i meet these sods...or any sod who isn't T10 I'll pretend T6 doesn't exist though



I guarantee that you were a loser in high school.


lol loser? in high school? are you one of those guys who fondly remembers his golden days as the 2nd string high school QB? seriously...high school?

ur mom said i was hung like a jury, and then i showed her the proof



Haha, thank you for confirming my suspicions with that terrible joke. I'm glad you're tough on an anonymous, online message board.

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Cleareyes
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby Cleareyes » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:56 am

LawandOrder wrote:
I can't imagine it's even possible to pay off $200,000 on $40k/yr. For 30 years at a conservative 4.5% rate, that's still $1520/month.

Figure after tax income on $40 is about $30k or so. And we're talking about spending $18,240 on loans leaving us with $11,000 a year to pay for EVERYTHING else. Just not possible.


Well you're assuming the salary stays static, which it doesn't, but yes. Someone making $40,000 a year should not take out $200,000 in debt. But that's the price of a private school at full price. T4 private at full price probably doesn't make sense. Go to a state school with good in state tuition, or a school with a scholarship, and graduate with $100,000 in debt and the debt burden becomes much more manageable, even if the first few years will be tight.

misbuble
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby misbuble » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:58 am

sweens005 wrote:
misbuble wrote:
sweens005 wrote:
It's never worth attending anything tier 3 or 4...but it does raise my self esteem when i meet these sods...or any sod who isn't T10 I'll pretend T6 doesn't exist though



I guarantee that you were a loser in high school.


lol loser? in high school? are you one of those guys who fondly remembers his golden days as the 2nd string high school QB? seriously...high school?

ur mom said i was hung like a jury, and then i showed her the proof



Haha, thank you for confirming my suspicions with that terrible joke. I'm glad you're tough on an anonymous, online message board.


tell your mom it looked like roast beef, by the way, your t2/3/4 school is not quite as worthless as your comments, but close

sweens005
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby sweens005 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:01 pm

Haha, okay. Stop pretending like you've ever gotten laid.

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express01
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby express01 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:03 pm

IMO, in this economy its HYSCCN or bust. If i weren't lucky enough to get into CCN, i would just go to UT Austin and stay in texas forever. :( :?

sweens005
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby sweens005 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:05 pm

express01 wrote:IMO, in this economy its HYSCCN or bust. If i weren't lucky enough to get into CCN, i would just go to UT Austin and stay in texas forever. :( :?



You're right. The economy will never turn around. If you can't get into one of six "acceptable" schools now, you should probably forgo a legal career forever.

pdx1
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby pdx1 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:09 pm

LawandOrder wrote:Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important.


+1 on you being an idiot.

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nightlight
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby nightlight » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:10 pm

SoxyPirate wrote:Here on TLS
US News's Top 14
Is all that matters

Beyond T14
TLS'ers recommend
to go fist oneself

How could it be true
that so many smart people
are such f*cknuggets

Because they're all 20-23 years old and think they've figured the world out already.

Intelligence =/= wisdom
Last edited by nightlight on Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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