thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

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Mase85
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thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby Mase85 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:47 am

Got accepted to Widener, which is a tier 4, its close to my family, rent's not too high, and it will be more affordable. Id like to practice corp law, but that could change once I learn more about it. Delaware ppl boast widener to be great for corp law, but I don't know if that's just a way they cope with the school being tier 4.

However, I have been waitlisted at a T14 and at a tier 2 (77th to be exact) and I'm still waiting on some decisions from a tier 1 and a tier 2...all of these options will definitely be harder to pay for and are a little further from fam/cheap living.

So, tell me if I should stay on the waitlists, go to any tier 1/2 I'm accepted to even if they are lower ranked in 1 & 2, and if Id be foolish to go to the tier4...and if I accept it now as a safety, is it possible to abandon it if a better school removes me from the wait?

Hopefully, I didn't ask a question that people are tired of answering but I would appreciate some input!

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LawandOrder
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby LawandOrder » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:52 am

Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important.

uvatwol
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby uvatwol » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:56 am

Mase85 wrote:Got accepted to Widener, which is a tier 4, its close to my family, rent's not too high, and it will be more affordable. Id like to practice corp law, but that could change once I learn more about it. Delaware ppl boast widener to be great for corp law, but I don't know if that's just a way they cope with the school being tier 4.

However, I have been waitlisted at a T14 and at a tier 2 (77th to be exact) and I'm still waiting on some decisions from a tier 1 and a tier 2...all of these options will definitely be harder to pay for and are a little further from fam/cheap living.

So, tell me if I should stay on the waitlists, go to any tier 1/2 I'm accepted to even if they are lower ranked in 1 & 2, and if Id be foolish to go to the tier4...and if I accept it now as a safety, is it possible to abandon it if a better school removes me from the wait?

Hopefully, I didn't ask a question that people are tired of answering but I would appreciate some input!


Wait, what? You are waitlisted at T14 AND #77 AND considering going to Widener? Does not compute.

If this is real, do not go to Widener. The 77 WL is probably yield protection. I'm kind of confused why you applied to such a wide range of schools, but no point in debating all that.

Since you've got a WL at a T14 school, I'd advise sticking it out and reapplying if you don't get something within the T14 or T20. Don't go to Widener with these kind of other possibilities, even it means reapplying.

If (when) you do reapply, do a little more thinking about the range of schools--the net you cast was widener than it needed to be, by about 170 rank spots.

alenhar1
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby alenhar1 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:08 am

LawandOrder wrote:Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important.


Quantifying always makes me cringe.

sweens005
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby sweens005 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:17 am

Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important



You're an idiot.

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LawandOrder
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby LawandOrder » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:25 am

sweens005 wrote:
Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important



You're an idiot.


Please share your reasoning with the group, Tommy.

misbuble
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby misbuble » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:30 am

LawandOrder wrote:
sweens005 wrote:
Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important



You're an idiot.


Please share your reasoning with the group, Tommy.


He is not an idiot. I'll take it further, schools below the T12 are not worth attending, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever.

fixed

now stop cluttering the market you inferior prospectives

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Genki
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby Genki » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:32 am

sweens005 wrote:
Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important



You're an idiot.


I see nothing wrong with LawandOrder's initial statement. He/she is not saying that that one should not go to a law school that isn't ranked T14, only that in most cases you will be stuck in a specific region if you do. Once you drop out of the first tier, very few schools have much placement ability outside of their immediate regions so saying that "rankings matter little once you've dropped so low" makes sense to me.

misbuble
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby misbuble » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:34 am

It's never worth attending anything tier 3 or 4...but it does raise my self esteem when i meet these sods...or any sod who isn't T10 :shock: I'll pretend T6 doesn't exist though

AbsolutLax
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby AbsolutLax » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:51 am

He is not an idiot. I'll take it further, schools below the T12 are not worth attending, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever.

fixed

now stop cluttering the market you inferior prospectives


Seriously, does your mom help you tie your shoes in the morning, cause you're retarded.


Don't listen to this bullshit- If you can get into a Tier 1 school go. Past that your job prospects begin to get a bit shady for your first job. Do you seriously believe 5 to 10 years of work experience will not give you the flexibility to move to a different location?

sweens005
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby sweens005 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:25 am

I guess I just wasn't aware that the nation's demand for lawyers could be met by students matriculating from fourteen schools. Your assessment is very myopic. Sure, attending a school outside of the top 25 will likely limit prospects for your FIRST job. However, a few years of successful practice can very often make up for such a disadvantage. Too many people use this site as a means to convey their purported superiority, and not to actually offer any constructive advice.

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LawandOrder
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby LawandOrder » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:26 am

AbsolutLax wrote:
He is not an idiot. I'll take it further, schools below the T12 are not worth attending, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever.

fixed

now stop cluttering the market you inferior prospectives


Seriously, does your mom help you tie your shoes in the morning, cause you're retarded.


Don't listen to this bullshit- If you can get into a Tier 1 school go. Past that your job prospects begin to get a bit shady for your first job. Do you seriously believe 5 to 10 years of work experience will not give you the flexibility to move to a different location?



Because Cravath is just itching to get all the laterals from SmallLaw that couldn't make the cut the first time around?

sweens005
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby sweens005 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:28 am

It's never worth attending anything tier 3 or 4...but it does raise my self esteem when i meet these sods...or any sod who isn't T10 I'll pretend T6 doesn't exist though



I guarantee that you were a loser in high school.

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rayiner
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby rayiner » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:29 am

Mase85: What are your numbers? If your reaches are T14, your targets should be T25. You shouldn't even have applied to anything below T30.

High LSAT / Low uGPA
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby High LSAT / Low uGPA » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:33 am

misbuble wrote:
LawandOrder wrote:
sweens005 wrote:
Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important



You're an idiot.


Please share your reasoning with the group, Tommy.


He is not an idiot. I'll take it further, schools below the T12 are not worth attending, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever.

fixed

now stop cluttering the market you inferior prospectives


In fact, schools lesser than HYS are not worth attending, and Stanford only if you get a full ride. The other 98% of law students are not only retarded, they should be lined up against a wall and shot to declutter the market.

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rayiner
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby rayiner » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:43 am

LawandOrder wrote:Because Cravath is just itching to get all the laterals from SmallLaw that couldn't make the cut the first time around?


It's hardly Cravath or out.

Yes, if you miss the biglaw cut-off, biglaw is probably out for good, but $60k starting plus low debt is hardly failure at life.

Your contention that non-T14s aren't worth full ride is silly. Even if you're highly risk-averse, anything down to USC is at least worth sticker (unless you think you can't even place 2/3!). With some $$, the whole T50 is worth going to.

You seem to think that most law students have rosy prospects outside of the law with their UG degree. It's some major "grass is greener" mentality. If you have an Ivy degree or a practical major, you might be looking at $50k+ with just your UG. If you don't, then it's more like $30k. At that point, a $60k starting salary + little debt has gotta look pretty good.

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LawandOrder
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby LawandOrder » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:52 am

rayiner wrote:
LawandOrder wrote:Because Cravath is just itching to get all the laterals from SmallLaw that couldn't make the cut the first time around?


It's hardly Cravath or out.

Yes, if you miss the biglaw cut-off, biglaw is probably out for good, but $60k starting plus low debt is hardly failure at life.

Your contention that non-T14s aren't worth full ride is silly. Even if you're highly risk-averse, anything down to USC is at least worth sticker (unless you think you can't even place 2/3!). With some $$, the whole T50 is worth going to.

You seem to think that most law students have rosy prospects outside of the law with their UG degree. It's some major "grass is greener" mentality. If you have an Ivy degree or a practical major, you might be looking at $50k+ with just your UG. If you don't, then it's more like $30k. At that point, a $60k starting salary + little debt has gotta look pretty good.


You certainly are right about it being a case of difference of expectations and outlook on life. You consider $60k starting plus low debt as at least not failing, but if I am going to invest $150,000 in debt plus a similiar forgone amount in income from the three years spent in law school, I think I am fully justified in expecting a job paying deep in to the $100s starting.

I guess I don't get it. I am about a year out of undergrad with one of those "practical majors" making closer to 60 than to 30 and I certainly don't feel like I've succeeded. Why would I want to go to law school and end up in the same position I am now? That's a massive waste of time and money.

FelaForever
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby FelaForever » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:11 am

I feel the need to reiterate how utterly ridiculous this notion that if you don't get into a T14 school, it's not worth going is. I have a very good friend who went to a school ranked in the 80s at sticker price and now (less than 10 years out) is extremely successful, known nationally, could get a job anywhere in the country (or world, for that matter).

People have different goals, not everyone wants to go be a big hotshot lawyer at the top corporate firm they can get in to, so I think it's extremely presumptuous, and downright prickish, to make statements like that.

misbuble
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby misbuble » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:13 am

sweens005 wrote:
It's never worth attending anything tier 3 or 4...but it does raise my self esteem when i meet these sods...or any sod who isn't T10 I'll pretend T6 doesn't exist though



I guarantee that you were a loser in high school.


lol loser? in high school? are you one of those guys who fondly remembers his golden days as the 2nd string high school QB? seriously...high school?

ur mom said i was hung like a jury, and then i showed her the proof

misbuble
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby misbuble » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:26 am

misbuble wrote:
sweens005 wrote:
It's never worth attending anything tier 3 or 4...but it does raise my self esteem when i meet these sods...or any sod who isn't T10 I'll pretend T6 doesn't exist though



I guarantee that you were a loser in high school.


lol loser? in high school? are you one of those guys who fondly remembers his golden days as the 2nd string high school QB? seriously...high school?

ur mom said i was hung like a jury, and then i showed her the proof


i put her on the stand and then i gave her the truth

-luda

Mase85
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby Mase85 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:29 am

Thanks to everyone who offered advice...and random rants of no use to me...but they were entertaining...

rayiner wrote:Mase85: What are your numbers? If your reaches are T14, your targets should be T25. You shouldn't even have applied to anything below T30.


Lol. If I said my numbers I'm pretty sure you'd die- cause of death: laughin ur ass off. I applied to a wide range of schools because my grades are mediocre aka crap. I'm the average joe-well Jane. I applied to widener because I thought id get in and everyone applies there when u live in de....the t14 is actually uva and that was a shot in the dark and I got waitlisted. Gotta dream sometimes, u know...hopefully some1 else will say yes from a respectable tier even if its tier 2-and if they do, I'm assuming ur advice is to run with that instead of widener, right?

DEKOCARDS
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby DEKOCARDS » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:31 am

misbuble wrote:[
He is not an idiot. I'll take it further, schools below the T12 are not worth attending, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever.

fixed

now stop cluttering the market you inferior prospectives


These not so subtle anti-Georgetown digs are getting really obnoxious on this board...

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rayiner
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby rayiner » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:42 am

Mase85 wrote:Lol. If I said my numbers I'm pretty sure you'd die- cause of death: laughin ur ass off. I applied to a wide range of schools because my grades are mediocre aka crap.


We would be able to be a lot more helpful if we had the numbers. A lot of people underestimate their chances. A high LSAT generally makes up for a low GPA. The fact that you got waitlisted at UVA suggests that your LSAT was high enough to not make you an auto-reject, which means that you should have a very good shot at a Tier1.

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reasonable_man
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:44 am

Law & Order is a good poster and I agree with his comment. Its either T14 or its not T14. The 36th ranked school has little in common with the T10, but much in common with a school ranked 78 or 85 or 110 for that matter. Thinking otherwise is borderline retarded.

That said, you can attend a low ranked school and have a great career, but its hard as hell. I worked 18 hour days while in school, half in school half for a firm developing a relationship and showing them I'm worth the investment. As a result I had a great gig waiting upon graduation.. About 5 other kids in my TTT grad class had similar situations.. 2 or 3 got good OCI placements and about 5 or 6 more had straight up good connections from family members. Another 8 to 10 got shit-ass clerkships that will translate into nothing and maybe 1 or 2 got clerkships that are worth the year commitment. Everyone else is doing GARBAGE work at shit ass firms or straight up unemployed.

There were apx 185 kids in my graduating class... Of that number, based on above, (which is sadly very accurate), there are about 15 kids not thinking of killing themself at this point.. 15 out of 185, or aproximately 8%... Those are your chances of being succesful after attending a lower ranked school.. 92% chance of utter failure, 4 to 1 debt to income ratio and handling plaintiff's personal injury law with non-english speaking clients does not sound like a good time to me.

OP.. If you have a T14 wait list.. Start working up other avenues other than Widner.. Attending Widner when you are a T14 caliber student is absolutely insane.

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SoxyPirate
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby SoxyPirate » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:45 am

Here on TLS
US News's Top 14
Is all that matters

Beyond T14
TLS'ers recommend
to go fist oneself

How could it be true
that so many smart people
are such f*cknuggets




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