In at Rutgers Newark!!!

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holmesNYC
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby holmesNYC » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:00 pm

skamanindc wrote:Do you have relatives in Jersey? If so, use their house as your mailing adress, stay home with your fam and still enjoy in-state tuition! Obviously you would have to get a NJ license and register to vote in Jersey using your Jersey relative's address.


I do, actually, but that doesn't solve the issue of commuting as a 1L. They are too far away to just crash for the night and I don't have a car to get there, either.

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dapoetic1
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby dapoetic1 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:42 pm

skamanindc wrote:ahhh time to decide is running out, someone help me!!! Seton Hall or Rutgers!!


You're getting ignored on here, lol!!!

1. Are you interersted in any specific cliics?
--One of the things that really helped me decide was the availability of 3 clinics I was really interested in. I checked into these at other schools where I had been accepted and Rutgers' programs blew them away.
2. Amount of classes outside the 1L curriculum that interest you.
--Again I checked out the brochure and looked at what I would be doing with my time during 2L and 3L year. I found a tons of classes that I already know I want to take
3. Student Body
--I've visited a few schools and I just didn't feel like the student body was complimentary to me. I've been out of u-grad a while, and I wasn't looking forward to attending a school with a ton of students that have never lived outside of a dorm. So the age, experience, diversity of the student body was pretty important
4. Job Placement
--Chekcing out Rutgers' job placement among the top law firms, businesses, and mid-size firms really helped solidify my choice. They place very well among large firms and firms overall, and they do great with clerkships.

I don't have any facts to back this up, but I feel like the Rutgers name seems to be a little stronger and have a more solid reputation than SH. I'm sure in NJ either school will get the job done. But, Rutgers is the older school and they do have access to other campus' which means professors, money, activities...just all the things that make a school more interesting.
If you really want to work in BigLaw then check around in cities where you think you would like to work and then see how many R-N grads and SH grads currently work there. You could send them emails and ask them specific questions about how their alma maters are viewed by the firm. If they have a strong presence at the firm then they should be able to give you valuable advice on what it takes to get into strong fim jobs. But if you have a hard time finding grads from a school or they tell you that there aren't a lot of other grads at the firm then maybe you should take that into consideration.

All else said--if you're super cool choose Rutgers. Maybe we'll be classmates.
If you're a complete tool choose Seton so I don't have to put up with you!! :)

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Zeph
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby Zeph » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:45 pm

dapoetic1 wrote:All else said--if you're super cool choose Rutgers. Maybe we'll be classmates.
If you're a complete tool choose Seton so I don't have to put up with you!! :)


o snap :lol:

skamanindc
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby skamanindc » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:02 pm

dapoetic1 wrote:
skamanindc wrote:ahhh time to decide is running out, someone help me!!! Seton Hall or Rutgers!!


You're getting ignored on here, lol!!!

1. Are you interersted in any specific cliics?
--One of the things that really helped me decide was the availability of 3 clinics I was really interested in. I checked into these at other schools where I had been accepted and Rutgers' programs blew them away.
2. Amount of classes outside the 1L curriculum that interest you.
--Again I checked out the brochure and looked at what I would be doing with my time during 2L and 3L year. I found a tons of classes that I already know I want to take
3. Student Body
--I've visited a few schools and I just didn't feel like the student body was complimentary to me. I've been out of u-grad a while, and I wasn't looking forward to attending a school with a ton of students that have never lived outside of a dorm. So the age, experience, diversity of the student body was pretty important
4. Job Placement
--Chekcing out Rutgers' job placement among the top law firms, businesses, and mid-size firms really helped solidify my choice. They place very well among large firms and firms overall, and they do great with clerkships.

I don't have any facts to back this up, but I feel like the Rutgers name seems to be a little stronger and have a more solid reputation than SH. I'm sure in NJ either school will get the job done. But, Rutgers is the older school and they do have access to other campus' which means professors, money, activities...just all the things that make a school more interesting.
If you really want to work in BigLaw then check around in cities where you think you would like to work and then see how many R-N grads and SH grads currently work there. You could send them emails and ask them specific questions about how their alma maters are viewed by the firm. If they have a strong presence at the firm then they should be able to give you valuable advice on what it takes to get into strong fim jobs. But if you have a hard time finding grads from a school or they tell you that there aren't a lot of other grads at the firm then maybe you should take that into consideration.

All else said--if you're super cool choose Rutgers. Maybe we'll be classmates.
If you're a complete tool choose Seton so I don't have to put up with you!! :)


Thanks for that detail. I have done a lot of research. Looking on the websites of the firms that I would be intrested in working at, there is a pretty even split among Rutgers/SH. I asked some relatives of mine (who are nither Rutgers nor SH alums) who practice in Jersey and they told me in their neck of the words, SH holds a LITTLE more weight.

True, rutgers has stronger clincs, but the juvinile justice clinic at SH looks great to me.

In terms of NY placement, yeh Rutgers has the upper hand, but I am really intrested in working Philly when I graduate (i cant live there now for family reasons otherwise i would be going to a philly school). That being said, many philly firms have Jersey offices that recruit at SH (peper hamilton, fox rothchild, blank rome) and if those firms favor SH, than that gives me a better a chance, no?

Rutgers has been arround longer and does have a stronger alumni pull, which is why the decision is so hard to make.

On a more petty note, the facilities at SH blow Rutgers out of the water.

Orginally I was all set for Rutgers, but after the 30K SH gave me, I don't know what to do.

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dapoetic1
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby dapoetic1 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:17 pm

You're in quite the pickle.
Which one feels like THE PLACE when you walk on campus?
Which ones makes you have to make more exceptions or compromises?
When in doubt write it out.
Put each school side by side. I know you said cost wasn't a issue but write out all the cost evey little thing. Housing options and their associated cost, transportation, food. You know Rutgers has a Starbucks in the law school cafe? Yeah...that's right! Maybe that does't do it for you, but I sent my check in as soon as I found out.

Seriousl, write down every little pro and con maybe when you see them side by side something will come blaring out at you.
Also look into Legal Research and Writing. See what the similarities and differences in the program are. A lot of schools don't pay enough attention to what the real bread and butter of being a lawyer is all about. And check out the faculty. see what kind of research they've done, or are currently doing. A lot of times you'll spend a semester or more with a professor as a researcher or doing an independent project. Do any of the professors really stick out? Are they doing relevant work? How close are they working in the legal community or projects and how much influence do they have in your field of interest. If they don't have too many people doing what you want to do it may be that much harder for someone to point you in the right direction.

passitback
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby passitback » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:36 pm

What aspect(s) of the facilities at Seton Hall blow Rutgers out of the water?

vyper
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby vyper » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:41 pm

For the poster deciding between Rutgers and Seton Hall, this is from another thread.

Rutgers just released a pretty good picture of their job statistics on their new website. Since the Amlaw 250 is a few years older I thought this would be helpful... I happen to have data from Seton Hall's employment outlook last year, so I thought I'd put them both up so undecided students could be better informed. Let me first give major props to Rutgers for making the data available, it wasn't easy acquiring the data from Seton Hall.

(NOTE: This is Rutgers class of 2007 being compared to Seton Hall's class of 2006)

RUTGERS-N DATA:
Data available here: --LinkRemoved-- some notes on private practice:

19.4% of the 46% are at firms of 2-10 attorneys
7.4% of the of the 46% are at firms of 11-25 attorneys
4.6% of the 46% are at firms of 26-50 attorneys
18.5% of the 46% are at firms of 51-100 attorneys
12.0% of the 46% are at firms of 101-250 attorneys
15.7% of the 46% are at firms of 251-500 attorneys
15.7% of the 46% are at firms of 501+ attorneys


SETON HALL DATA:

Quote:
361 graduates in the class of 2006, of which 348 (or 96.9%) reported themselves as employed. An additional 5 (or 1.4%) were pursuing other advanced degrees. The remaining balance either reported as unemployed or did not respond to the survey (for a total of 1.7%).

Of the 348 students who responded to the survey with employment data:
136 (or 39%) are in private practice. Almost 25% of our graduates who are in private practice are employed at large law firms - those with over 100 attorneys.
141 (or 40.5%) are employed in government positions - including Judicial Clerkships
53 (or 15.2%) are employed in a business or corporate environment.
5 (or 1.44%) are employed in a public interest field.
4 (or 1.2%) are employed in academic settings.

26.47% of the 39% are at firms of 2 to 10 attorneys with an average salary of $53,191
16.18% of the 39% are at firms of 11 to 25 attorneys with an average salary of $62,841
5.88% of the 39% are at firms of 26 to 50 attorneys with an average salary of $73,125
8.09% of the 39% are at firms of 51 to 100 attorneys with an average salary of $85,136
6.62% of the 39% are at firms of 101 to 250 attorneys with an average salary of $107,167
7.35% of the 39% are at firms of 251 to 500 attorneys with an average salary of $133,000
9.56% of the 39% are at firms of 500+ attorneys with an average salary of $135,385
18.38% of the 39% did not specify the size of the firm
1.47% of the 39% are self-employed

Conclusion: Rutgers still appears to offer a significant edge in placement at a fraction of the cost. 9.17 % Seton Hall's class ended up at firms with more than 100 attorneys... 19.97% of Rutgers class ended up at firms with more than 100 attorneys (not to mention students from both schools who took the clerkship route and could have gone to mid-size and large firms)


If biglaw is what you want, Rutgers gives you a pretty significant edge.

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Zeph
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby Zeph » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:48 pm

passitback wrote:What aspect(s) of the facilities at Seton Hall blow Rutgers out of the water?


im interested in the same

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jpasqu1
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby jpasqu1 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:04 pm

Zeph wrote:
passitback wrote:What aspect(s) of the facilities at Seton Hall blow Rutgers out of the water?


im interested in the same


Both are relatively new buildings. I thought Seton Hall seemed more sterile, which isn't necessarily a good thing.

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dapoetic1
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby dapoetic1 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:10 pm

Good post vyper!

anybody else notice the huge overhaul of the Rutgers-N website?
The website was pretty craptastic. It was probably one of the biggest eyeseores of any respectable law school. Actually of any law school period. I think only People's College of Law had a worse website.
But then a few days ago I logged on and lo and behold they got it all Extreme Makeover-like.

Kudos to Rutgers for getting their poop in a group.
I hope this means they are spending time (and money) in other relevant areas of the law school.

skamanindc
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby skamanindc » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:02 pm

facilities, as i said, is a trivial point. My personal preference is a lot of sunlight, which shines in more in the SH building. SH building is more spacious. Im not going to argue anyone on this point, just in my personal preferences SH was def it.

Vyper, I also saw those statistics, but I think its a little skewed. My understanding is that SH has a good number of grads working in the Big Jersey firms. Jersey firms tend to emphizie a judicial ckershirp before your first year as an associate. In fact, many 3Ls i spoke to on admitted students day were taking clerkships, but had already secured a job at a firm for the year after. Also, a brief look at these firm's websites shows that most of the SH grads employed there clerked for a year first. If thats the case, then the number of grads that do have that biglaw job is higher than 9.whaterver%

Rutgers is also a great school, which is why this decision is so hard.

holmesNYC
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby holmesNYC » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:49 pm

dapoetic1 wrote:Good post vyper!

anybody else notice the huge overhaul of the Rutgers-N website?
The website was pretty craptastic. It was probably one of the biggest eyeseores of any respectable law school. Actually of any law school period. I think only People's College of Law had a worse website.
But then a few days ago I logged on and lo and behold they got it all Extreme Makeover-like.

Kudos to Rutgers for getting their poop in a group.
I hope this means they are spending time (and money) in other relevant areas of the law school.


Whoa!!! Thanks for pointing that out. I was on the site just last week and as usual was trying to find information on that disgusting web site and thinking to myself that if they don't have the money to update their site, what does that mean for the rest of the school? Finally! This makes them seem entirely more reputable. I'm very excited to visit on Friday (and not just because of the new web site).

vyper
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby vyper » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:59 pm

I think you're making a pretty big mistake suggesting more Seton Hall grads go for clerkships than Rutgers. Rutgers placement is still very NJ oriented, yes they place better than SHU in NY, but that doesn't mean Rutgers doesn't also place as well (if not better) in NJ. I'd expect about an equal proportion of students from both schools going to clerkships before firms.

Quite frankly, 10% of a class is a HUGE difference in placement.

Another fact I don't see mentioned in the total quality of the school brand. If I remember correctly, Seton Hall has a very large evening and "part time" day program (larger than their actual full time class). Again this is from my memory, but the quality of the students in the part time and evening programs are significantly less than Seton Hall's full-time, Rutgers full-time or even Rutgers part-time students (in regard to lsat and gpa). At the same time, Rutgers does not offer a "part time" day program and has a relatively small evening program with similar lsat/gpa numbers to their day program.

Quite frankly, the part time day program at Seton Hall seems like a blatant attempt to take lower qualified students money and avoid having to report them to US News for ranking purposes... now that part time programs are being ranked it will be very interesting to see if Seton Hall abandons this practice. Maybe I'm biased against Seton Hall, but it is certainly something to think hard about.

skamanindc
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby skamanindc » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:07 pm

I didnt mean to suggest that they have more clerks than Rutgers, only that it must be more than 9.6% in big firms. Further, according to the statistics you posted was 5% not 10%. In either case, it doesn't really make that much a difference. The job prospects seem to be relatively equivalent. At either school you will need to work hard to get a good job. But there are plenty of both alums in big firms, just check the web sites.

I am not bashing Rutgers, I very may well end up going there.

Another thing to keep in mind, in addition to your point about part time programs is state budget cuts which affect Rutgers more than SHU. That and SHU seems to go up in rank while Rutgers seems to go down. The difference between the rankings is irrelevant, however, since there is no NY regional school in between them. For all intensive purposes, they are ranked consecutively.

It is a hard decision.

vyper
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby vyper » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:36 pm

Sorry, I was referring to law firms over 100 in size. You'll find that almost all of the of the "big" NJ firms aren't in the 500+ category (in fact Lowenstein, which I think is still the biggest despite the recent layoffs, is in the 200ish range). Some would consider 100+ firms midlaw, but in NJ, that is your biglaw imo.

9.17 % Seton Hall's class ended up at firms with more than 100 attorneys... 19.97% of Rutgers class ended up at firms with more than 100 attorneys (not to mention students from both schools who took the clerkship route and could have gone to mid-size and large firms)


So just over 10% class size difference in 100+ lawyer firm placement.

skamanindc
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby skamanindc » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:53 pm

vyper wrote:RUTGERS-N DATA:

15.7% of the 46% are at firms of 501+ attorneys


SETON HALL DATA:


9.56% of the 39% are at firms of 500+ attorneys with an average salary of $135,385


If biglaw is what you want, Rutgers gives you a pretty significant edge.


I thought we were limiting our discussion to BigLaw not midsize, hence the 5% discrepancy.

vyper
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby vyper » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:01 pm

Yeah I got confused too. The poster (might've been you, don't have time to go look) said they didn't care about NY biglaw and would take New Jersey "biglaw", but that doesn't really exist. New Jersey market paying firms (and 120k - 140k starting firms) are more in the 100+ lawyer variety.

Less than a handful of "biglaw" firms which are in NJ are satellites of NY firms that I can recall off hand. Lowenstein is the largest NJ firm, and it only has 200-250 lawyers, so would be considered midlaw by many.

Biglaw in NJ is pretty much 100+ or nonexistent.

skamanindc
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby skamanindc » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:08 pm

right that was me, but as I said, i am interested in the jersey firms that have philly offices, as i would want to end up in philly. True those offices have 200 lawyers but the firm over all has 500 + attorneys, its going to be a hard decision. I really dont know what to do.

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dapoetic1
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby dapoetic1 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:34 pm

Just because a firm has 500+lawyers overall and they have a satellite office it doesn't mean it's going to be the same office.
As an example Latham and Watkins has a NJ firm. Obvioulsy L&M is one of the top 10 (or so I haven't memorized rankings) firm in the US. But the NJ firm has a much smaller number and pays much less to associates in NJ than it's NY associates.
Having said that if you made $125k in NJ you'd still be doing as good or better than a counterpart making $150 in NY. So there's also something to look at in terms of actual biglaw. A firm that has 200+atty's in an office is going to have very different work available. As a matter of fact L&M in NJ doesnt' even offer summer associate positions. You may not have access to the same number of practice groups.

I know that a number of large firms in NJ indirectly require a clerkship. But they don't specify which type. This may explain Rutgers (and Seton's) push to get thier folks clerkships. If you consider there's only 3 law schools in NJ and there's a number of judges that need clerks that's a pretty good market. There's a graph on WSJ.com that was written on how to get a clerkship. It specifically follows a judge in Pennsylvania, but they broke down the numbers and 10 Pitt Law grads got clerkships in one year. What does this tell you? That the regional pull+Regional Law school+Good Clerkship opportunity. The NY clerkship route is oversaturated with the eleventy billion law schools in NY and the millions of law school grads from all over the country that want to clerk in NY. But being a NJ law student you've got a little bit of the inside advantage to clerkships and then which ever form of biglaw you want.

skamanindc
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby skamanindc » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:04 am

so in other words, seton or rutgers doesnt really make that much of a difference?

passitback
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby passitback » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:29 am

What percentage of Seton Hall student that receive clerkships, go into BIGLAW?

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coolkatz321
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby coolkatz321 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:30 am

passitback wrote:What percentage of Seton Hall student that receive clerkships, go into BIGLAW?


More into clerkships (but not by much), significantly less into Biglaw.

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dapoetic1
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby dapoetic1 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:18 am

passitback wrote:What percentage of Seton Hall student that receive clerkships, go into BIGLAW?


I don't know if these numbers are necessarily available. What you're going to find are charts that show where any number of graduates of a given class find employment. The number of grads employed in "government" included judicial clerkships (at all levels). Those clerks will be employed in those jobs for a year or two. Afterwards they are free to seek employment anywhere they choose. The great thing about clerkships is that you know have 1-2 years of experience, you have a great resume boost, and a fantastic LOR if you've done well as a clerk. so you can probably write your own ticket. A lot of clerks probably end up working in whateve job they want. YOu know judges have some amazing contacts. So if you clerk for one and then want a follow-on to biglaw I'm certain that's easy as pie to obtain. Also a lot of people end up getting great work in the private sector working for various businesses and corporations, and some even turn to top Public Interst jobs. One of the things that makes R-N such a great deal is that the graduates leave with so little debt that they don't have to necessarily pull in a 6-figure salaray. They can choose work they want to do rather than work they have to do.
don't get me wrong some people absolutely WANT biglaw, but some just know it's the only way to have a decent lifestyle because of school debt. But there are tons of jobs available to lawyers. Once you've done a clerkship you're exposed to the people that can point you in a million directions.

So...I don't think R-N has the market on clerkships or biglaw or employment in general. Based on each school's reported research R-N does tend to do slightly better than their cross-street rival. But in NJ i'm sure both do extremely well!! for most I think R-N proves to be a better option becasue SH is usually more expensive than R-N, and nobody thinks it's a good idea to take on more debt for the same options in the end.
I do think R-N does better in the NY market than SH. And like I said not a lot of NJ firms have a summer associate program. So if you're interested in working for a firm you'll most likely work in their NY firm and accept a NJ job afterwards--if you can get the Summer position in NY. And I think that's where R-N has the advantage.

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dapoetic1
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby dapoetic1 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:31 am

Got a new avatar!!
Thoughts?

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Zeph
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Re: In at Rutgers Newark!!!

Postby Zeph » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:54 am

dapoetic1 wrote:Got a new avatar!!
Thoughts?



Loving it




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