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Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:50 pm
by EnglishApplicant2017
Andersblooms93 wrote:Does anyone here know how an african-american who studied abroad (UK) with a 170 would do?
The unreportable gpa is making my sisters chances far more unpredictable than mine (though she's a better student) I had a 3.6gpa I think she has a 'superior' rating and/or first class honor something something from england. Any insight from y'all is welcome :)



I don't know very much about URM stats (and certainly not URM/international stats) but generally it seems as though for all international students without a reportable GPA they focus far more on the LSAT. The superior rating will help somewhat as it demonstrates a good academic record, but arguably the main reason law schools care disproportionately about the LSAT and GPAs is that they influence the rankings. LSAC don't translate foreign transcripts into a GPA but rather just a classification: superior, above average, average and below average. Your sister's grades (and my own) won't impact on the GPA proportion of the ranking at all, this data is excluded from what they report to the ABA. Probably best to view her grades as roughly median GPA for a non-URM candidate but that involves some speculation.

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:47 pm
by InterLaw
EnglishApplicant2017 wrote:Checking in. 172 and awaiting the submission and evaluation of my transcript (hoping for Superior but feel like it will somehow be an unjustified Above Average). From the UK (apologies for the utterly boring username). Still in undergrad although I have a year of political/legal work experience as my degree includes a work placement year. Anyone else still in undergrad and/or from the UK!?

Thank you for your great insights InterLaw and freekick. I made some similar spreadsheets but they are essentially just worse versions of yours, InterLaw!

Has anyone got any fee waivers yet? I got one from Cornell a while back but nowhere else. Do international students have to solicit more fee waivers as our lack of a GPA means we turn up less in applicant searches? Anyone had any luck with solicited or unsolicited fee waivers?

Either way, thank you all again (especially InterLaw) for the great work in setting up the thread. It's so good to have a community of people is somewhat similar situations to agonise, commiserate and hopefully celebrate with over the coming months.


Hi British mate! I'm glad that you find my research somewhat useful!

Speaking of fee waivers, I just got 1 from W&M, which is good because I wanted to apply there... But nothing else! Not even Cornell... And we share numbers, so I'm pretty sad for that...

EnglishApplicant2017 wrote:
Andersblooms93 wrote:Does anyone here know how an african-american who studied abroad (UK) with a 170 would do?
The unreportable gpa is making my sisters chances far more unpredictable than mine (though she's a better student) I had a 3.6gpa I think she has a 'superior' rating and/or first class honor something something from england. Any insight from y'all is welcome :)



I don't know very much about URM stats (and certainly not URM/international stats) but generally it seems as though for all international students without a reportable GPA they focus far more on the LSAT. The superior rating will help somewhat as it demonstrates a good academic record, but arguably the main reason law schools care disproportionately about the LSAT and GPAs is that they influence the rankings. LSAC don't translate foreign transcripts into a GPA but rather just a classification: superior, above average, average and below average. Your sister's grades (and my own) won't impact on the GPA proportion of the ranking at all, this data is excluded from what they report to the ABA. Probably best to view her grades as roughly median GPA for a non-URM candidate but that involves some speculation.


+1

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:52 pm
by InterLaw
Also, the question of the day: do you mention any language certificate in your CV / did you send your certificate to LSAC?

I know that Duke wants it, but they seem to be the only one among top schools...

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:40 pm
by makingthemove
InterLaw wrote:Also, the question of the day: do you mention any language certificate in your CV / did you send your certificate to LSAC?



I am just going to list my level of proficiency in the skills sections in the CV and in the forms. But I have an advanced degree and I work in the US, so I am not too worried about establishing that I have good English skills.

About your toefl score, I don't know what that means since I'm from an older generation that operated in a scale that went to 600 or something. Is that considered passing? I can't imagine they are going to care about the TOEFL beyond treating it as a Pass/Fail grade.

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:05 am
by daiff
Thank you for collecting all the data :D

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:28 pm
by makingthemove
InterLaw wrote:
Has anyone got any fee waivers yet? I got one from Cornell a while back but nowhere else. Do international students have to solicit more fee waivers as our lack of a GPA means we turn up less in applicant searches? Anyone had any luck with solicited or unsolicited fee waivers?



Didn't get much either. Waiting for the LSAC's evaluation of my transcript before requesting via e-mail.

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:51 am
by appind
any reapplicants here can say how their cycle went relative to their numbers at t14?

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:23 am
by tuna_wasabi
makingthemove wrote:
InterLaw wrote:
Has anyone got any fee waivers yet? I got one from Cornell a while back but nowhere else. Do international students have to solicit more fee waivers as our lack of a GPA means we turn up less in applicant searches? Anyone had any luck with solicited or unsolicited fee waivers?



Didn't get much either. Waiting for the LSAC's evaluation of my transcript before requesting via e-mail.


I have an LSAC GPA and similar LSAT. So far, got waivers from Duke, UVA, Cornell. Received emails (and invitations for interviews?) from UCLA, Columbia, Berkeley, and WUTSL.

These outcomes are most likely because of my LSAC GPA.

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:27 pm
by makingthemove
How long did the LSAC evaluation take for you guys? It's been over two weeks here. I want to know my evaluation level.

EDIT: nm got the results. Above average.

Also, crazy trend: last year's international applicants' spreadshee had 16 entries, 14 seem to be no reported GPA type people. Of those, only 1 failed to get admission in one of the T-15. The total of non-reported GPA applicants that enrolled in the T-15s from ABA 509s for 2016 is 103. These numbers are so small.

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:50 pm
by ThatOneAfrican
Anyone know if the URM boost also applies to internationals? I get the feeling that it doesn't but not sure.

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:35 pm
by albanach
InterLaw wrote:
UVA. This is painful. Why? What did we do to you? I wanted to go there so much… But man! ABA says 3.7 n/r aliens a year (lowest) and 0 unreported GPAs (lowest). MYlsn says 13.64% a.r. (2nd lowest, 6/44), 0% mid acceptance rate (lowest, 0/17!). If you really want to go to Charlottesville (bad timing for that), just apply early (33%, 5/15) and hope. If you are a full international (you don’t have a GPA) start considering other options.


Admittedly I was in the class of 2014, so admission was a while ago now, but I had no problem with UVA handling my application. I was ED for various reasons that made sense in the mad world that existed back then, but I was accepted inside 24 hours of applying.

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:38 pm
by InterLaw
albanach wrote:
InterLaw wrote:
UVA. This is painful. Why? What did we do to you? I wanted to go there so much… But man! ABA says 3.7 n/r aliens a year (lowest) and 0 unreported GPAs (lowest). MYlsn says 13.64% a.r. (2nd lowest, 6/44), 0% mid acceptance rate (lowest, 0/17!). If you really want to go to Charlottesville (bad timing for that), just apply early (33%, 5/15) and hope. If you are a full international (you don’t have a GPA) start considering other options.


Admittedly I was in the class of 2014, so admission was a while ago now, but I had no problem with UVA handling my application. I was ED for various reasons that made sense in the mad world that existed back then, but I was accepted inside 24 hours of applying.


Well that is a great news, even though those numbers are still less than encouraging... Would you mind sharing a bit more about your app, like numbers or geographic provenience? Did you attend college in the US?

But most of all: are you glad of your choice? Would you recommend it to us?

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:01 pm
by albanach
InterLaw wrote:
albanach wrote:
InterLaw wrote:
UVA. This is painful. Why? What did we do to you? I wanted to go there so much… But man! ABA says 3.7 n/r aliens a year (lowest) and 0 unreported GPAs (lowest). MYlsn says 13.64% a.r. (2nd lowest, 6/44), 0% mid acceptance rate (lowest, 0/17!). If you really want to go to Charlottesville (bad timing for that), just apply early (33%, 5/15) and hope. If you are a full international (you don’t have a GPA) start considering other options.


Admittedly I was in the class of 2014, so admission was a while ago now, but I had no problem with UVA handling my application. I was ED for various reasons that made sense in the mad world that existed back then, but I was accepted inside 24 hours of applying.


Well that is a great news, even though those numbers are still less than encouraging... Would you mind sharing a bit more about your app, like numbers or geographic provenience? Did you attend college in the US?

But most of all: are you glad of your choice? Would you recommend it to us?


Sure, I attended an average school (far from Oxbridge or even LSE) in the UK. Graduated with a 2:2. Classified as above average.

Non traditional applicant, so lots of work experience. No nobel prizes or anything like that. LSAT was 173. I was, however, in-state at the time of applying.

As for whether I would recommend UVA? Yes, without a shadow of a doubt. I loved my three years there, the atmosphere is incredibly collegial. Professors are brilliant, engaging and genuinely want you to enjoy your time studying.

If you're looking at other schools, ask some alumni if they had fun and enjoyed their time at law school. Hopefully the answer is yes, because UVA demonstrates in class after class that s great legal education doesn't have to be miserable.

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:14 am
by Haburo
UK applicant here. How do we get fee waivers?

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:30 am
by InterLaw
albanach wrote:
InterLaw wrote:
albanach wrote:
InterLaw wrote:
UVA. This is painful. Why? What did we do to you? I wanted to go there so much… But man! ABA says 3.7 n/r aliens a year (lowest) and 0 unreported GPAs (lowest). MYlsn says 13.64% a.r. (2nd lowest, 6/44), 0% mid acceptance rate (lowest, 0/17!). If you really want to go to Charlottesville (bad timing for that), just apply early (33%, 5/15) and hope. If you are a full international (you don’t have a GPA) start considering other options.


Admittedly I was in the class of 2014, so admission was a while ago now, but I had no problem with UVA handling my application. I was ED for various reasons that made sense in the mad world that existed back then, but I was accepted inside 24 hours of applying.


Well that is a great news, even though those numbers are still less than encouraging... Would you mind sharing a bit more about your app, like numbers or geographic provenience? Did you attend college in the US?

But most of all: are you glad of your choice? Would you recommend it to us?


Sure, I attended an average school (far from Oxbridge or even LSE) in the UK. Graduated with a 2:2. Classified as above average.

Non traditional applicant, so lots of work experience. No nobel prizes or anything like that. LSAT was 173. I was, however, in-state at the time of applying.

As for whether I would recommend UVA? Yes, without a shadow of a doubt. I loved my three years there, the atmosphere is incredibly collegial. Professors are brilliant, engaging and genuinely want you to enjoy your time studying.

If you're looking at other schools, ask some alumni if they had fun and enjoyed their time at law school. Hopefully the answer is yes, because UVA demonstrates in class after class that s great legal education doesn't have to be miserable.


Well thanks for the insight! I'm gonna apply to UVA in a couple of days, finger crossed!!

Haburo wrote:UK applicant here. How do we get fee waivers?


You can find a standardized e-mail to send in this website! Basically write your LSAT score and gpa evaluation and hope...

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:30 am
by conejitonatalka
Checking in! Every time I see the numbers for internationals I almost break. Cruel cruel cruel... Anyway good luck, everyone! I'm still waiting for my Sep score, but I am not very optimistic, to be honest. It's either my English (which I refuse to accept) or I'm not cut out to be LSAT God (which I refuse to accept too). I hope my academic record will speak louder than some exam. I've got Sup for both undergrad and masters, AA from another undergrad, and a number of publications in peer-review journals. Why can't that be enough of a proof that I will thrive in a rigorous academic setting like a top law school? :roll:

Hey, unrelated question, do you consider your different cultural background as a reason to include a DS? It would be unfair for me to claim that I've faced discrimination because of my identity, but DS usually asks about "how will my experience contribute to the diversity of the faculty", so it would make sense to point out my probably unique perspective.

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:06 am
by makingthemove
conejitonatalka wrote:.


I'm doing that. Some schools ask you to discuss challenges in the upbringing - to those schools I'm not sending one because I'm ~model minority~ immigrant. But the ones that ask how I can add to the diversity by adding a different perspective, I'm sending one.

If it helps, here's the criteria that I came up with after debating if I should write one: (1) I need to say something that's not on the PS and (2) the essay is a short, fun, feel-good soft ball that would take 5 mins to read and will give "OK THIS GUY IS DIFFERENT" feels. Criteria (2) is mostly because my diversity and identity is really low in the things that I find interesting about myself: I want this to be a quick "oh by the way" material for the admissions committees. You should probably adjust that according to how you're marketing yourself.

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:31 am
by conejitonatalka
makingthemove wrote:
conejitonatalka wrote:.


I'm doing that. Some schools ask you to discuss challenges in the upbringing - to those schools I'm not sending one because I'm ~model minority~ immigrant. But the ones that ask how I can add to the diversity by adding a different perspective, I'm sending one.

If it helps, here's the criteria that I came up with after debating if I should write one: (1) I need to say something that's not on the PS and (2) the essay is a short, fun, feel-good soft ball that would take 5 mins to read and will give "OK THIS GUY IS DIFFERENT" feels. Criteria (2) is mostly because my diversity and identity is really low in the things that I find interesting about myself: I want this to be a quick "oh by the way" material for the admissions committees. You should probably adjust that according to how you're marketing yourself.



Thanks! That helps! I was thinking the same thing; I never intended to claim "I had it more difficult" but rather "I had it really different than most of those applicants, let me tell you about it". But then I talked to a URM student and he was really sensitive about the issue, as if I was taking advantage of the challenges/discrimination he's been through by attaching a DS. And I don't want to be perceived that way, of course, so he made me feel pretty ignorant about other people, and frankly, quite miserable and embarrassed.

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:22 pm
by magic
Haburo wrote:UK applicant here. How do we get fee waivers?


You can sign up for CRS or contact the schools via e-mail directly.

Pro-tip: If you're applying to Northwestern, you can sign up for a fee waiver here: https://apply.law.northwestern.edu/regi ... eWaiverReq 8)

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:28 pm
by makingthemove
conejitonatalka wrote: But then I talked to a URM student and he was really sensitive about the issue, as if I was taking advantage of the challenges/discrimination he's been through by attaching a DS. And I don't want to be perceived that way, of course, so he made me feel pretty ignorant about other people, and frankly, quite miserable and embarrassed.


yeah. i wouldn't particularly care about how this one person felt. no sensible person would think you're taking advantage of someone's experiences - it's not like an admissions officer would think that you are pretending to be an URM by just writing a diversity statement. but he's right in that diversity statements are made for someone to have a space to tell a "life was hard to me but i made it through" narrative and breaking from it might irk someone in admissions. i'm hedging that by making it short and light and if they ignore it, i should still be fine.

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:35 am
by Haburo
I have a basic question: how do I send my UG transcripts to get them evaluated?

Sorry, but I'm kind of unclear about how to actually do this. I don't get what CAS is.

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:31 am
by SamuelJ.H
CAS (credential assembly service) is literally just that, a service which assembles and presents your credentials in coherent fashion to x, y, z law schools you eventually decide to apply to. It's the equivalent (for British folks) of the UCAS prior to undergrad.

In any case, you need to follow the steps outlined on LSAC but broadly speaking:
- create an LSAC account
- request transcripts from your undergrad. institution and get them sent to LSAC
- pay for the CAS (and they will automatically get translated)

Around the same time think about your LOR.

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:28 pm
by InterLaw
How are you all guys doing? Did you apply? Are you waiting for the LSAT score?

I applied to 9 schools so far, still 4/5 to go... Not sure about Columbia though, I feel like my chances there are very slim and that I would need a huge scholly to attend, which is not gonna happen. At the same time, their LSATS stats just dropped and they might like a 172...

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:33 pm
by EnglishApplicant2017
InterLaw wrote:How are you all guys doing? Did you apply? Are you waiting for the LSAT score?

I applied to 9 schools so far, still 4/5 to go... Not sure about Columbia though, I feel like my chances there are very slim and that I would need a huge scholly to attend, which is not gonna happen. At the same time, their LSATS stats just dropped and they might like a 172...


Why do you feel like Columbia is such a reach for admission (obviously scholarship is another kettle of fish)? You do have an above median LSAT there and Columbia is very numbers-oriented. Whats your GPA evaluation?

I'm still waiting for my transcripts to be submitted by my university and the letters of recommendation to be completed. The delay for transcripts are starting to really irritate me (especially considering that LSAC will take a few weeks to evaluate them) but I am meeting with the recommenders next week so hopefully I'll be submitted by mid-October and complete soon after.

Good luck!

Re: International Applicants 2017-2018

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:03 pm
by InterLaw
EnglishApplicant2017 wrote:
InterLaw wrote:How are you all guys doing? Did you apply? Are you waiting for the LSAT score?

I applied to 9 schools so far, still 4/5 to go... Not sure about Columbia though, I feel like my chances there are very slim and that I would need a huge scholly to attend, which is not gonna happen. At the same time, their LSATS stats just dropped and they might like a 172...


Why do you feel like Columbia is such a reach for admission (obviously scholarship is another kettle of fish)? You do have an above median LSAT there and Columbia is very numbers-oriented. Whats your GPA evaluation?

I'm still waiting for my transcripts to be submitted by my university and the letters of recommendation to be completed. The delay for transcripts are starting to really irritate me (especially considering that LSAC will take a few weeks to evaluate them) but I am meeting with the recommenders next week so hopefully I'll be submitted by mid-October and complete soon after.

Good luck!


My degree gpa evaluation is superior but I have more than one transcript with many red flags, so you know... It will be a hard cycle! The Columbia issue is the following: they say that they really care about international transcripts, and those are my red flags... Still worth it? (DON'T QUOTE THIS PART)