Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:27 am

joshuajsmith wrote:If one has already RSVP'd for an admitted student day, would it be better to wait to talk about $$$ after attending, or does it not really matter?


See above re: stalling. Why would you talk about money before attending admitted student day? So they can get admit another student, who will ask for less money, from the waitlist and invite that student to said day?

This is all about getting results that outperform what the school was inclined to give you in the first place.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby JamesDean1955 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:35 am

manofjustice wrote:
joshuajsmith wrote:If one has already RSVP'd for an admitted student day, would it be better to wait to talk about $$$ after attending, or does it not really matter?


See above re: stalling. Why would you talk about money before attending admitted student day? So they can get admit another student, who will ask for less money, from the waitlist and invite that student to said day?

This is all about getting results that outperform what the school was inclined to give you in the first place.


Wait, what? Your post is confusing. Isn't he simply asking about whether to inquire about aid before going to the admitted students weekend? Why are you assuming someone else will get admitted as a result of this? No one said anything about withdrawing.

IMO asking before an upcoming admitted students weekend is valid, especially if you have big offers from peer or higher ranked schools, and said ASW is late in March/early April when most awards roll out anyways. That's plenty of stalling IMO. For example, my thoughts are why the hell would I want to go to an ASW located at a school way out of my way, incurring expenses for which I will not be fully reimbursed, if they offer me nothing?

EDIT: To add to the above scenario, let's say peer schools have an ASW on the same weekend, one of which offered you a ton of money and the other nothing. Obviously, you would go to the one that offered you more money. So in this case especially, it could not hurt to ask about aid, when most schools give out plenty of aid before their ASW's.

mambar
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby mambar » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:55 am

manofjustice wrote:
joshuajsmith wrote:If one has already RSVP'd for an admitted student day, would it be better to wait to talk about $$$ after attending, or does it not really matter?


See above re: stalling. Why would you talk about money before attending admitted student day? So they can get admit another student, who will ask for less money, from the waitlist and invite that student to said day?

This is all about getting results that outperform what the school was inclined to give you in the first place.

What kind of advantage do you think signaling your possible intention to attend via ASW would give you? Anything beyond the obvious? Thanks for your advice thus far by the way.

joshuajsmith
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby joshuajsmith » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:04 pm

manofjustice wrote:
joshuajsmith wrote:If one has already RSVP'd for an admitted student day, would it be better to wait to talk about $$$ after attending, or does it not really matter?


See above re: stalling. Why would you talk about money before attending admitted student day? So they can get admit another student, who will ask for less money, from the waitlist and invite that student to said day?

This is all about getting results that outperform what the school was inclined to give you in the first place.


This was my gut instinct as well. Thanks!

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby JamesDean1955 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:24 pm

You lose nothing by asking for money before an ASW. I'm not saying it's leverage to do so before, but I disagree that you lose leverage by doing so, and if you are in a situation like I mentioned above, it is the smart thing to do.

If they say they will consider your request, or even reply "no", you can and should ask again right before the deposit deadline, where the real leverage occurs. You should ask and ask until you receive an award/increase or are told "no" at least twice.

But to each his own, in the end these timing strategies will matter much less for most applicants than is being purported ITT.

Alassio
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Alassio » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:15 pm

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Last edited by Alassio on Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

atay
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby atay » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:07 am

Alassio wrote:W.r.t. negotiating with CCN (and HYS), should you negoitate before you get your initial financial aid offer?

Also, has anyone heard of HYS being moved by large $$$ offers from CCN?

thanks!


How can you ask for more porridge before you've eaten your first bowl?

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:00 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:
manofjustice wrote:
joshuajsmith wrote:If one has already RSVP'd for an admitted student day, would it be better to wait to talk about $$$ after attending, or does it not really matter?


See above re: stalling. Why would you talk about money before attending admitted student day? So they can get admit another student, who will ask for less money, from the waitlist and invite that student to said day?

This is all about getting results that outperform what the school was inclined to give you in the first place.


Wait, what? Your post is confusing. Isn't he simply asking about whether to inquire about aid before going to the admitted students weekend? Why are you assuming someone else will get admitted as a result of this? No one said anything about withdrawing.


You're not getting it. Between two people, both with the same effect on medians, the school will take the one willing to come for less money. The countervailing effect on yield rate to admitting another person off the waitlist is negligible.

So, you negotiate when the waitlist is dried up of people with numbers acceptable for the school...when people have withdrawn and started their move to another city and put in their deposits at another school.

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:02 pm

atay wrote:
Alassio wrote:W.r.t. negotiating with CCN (and HYS), should you negoitate before you get your initial financial aid offer?

Also, has anyone heard of HYS being moved by large $$$ offers from CCN?

thanks!


How can you ask for more porridge before you've eaten your first bowl?


Stall.

There is only one rule to negotiating with law schools--in fact, if you'd like to get extremely abstract...there is only one always effective way to negotiate in any decentralized matching market. It's to stall.

Also relevant to legal employment. Legal employment is also a decentralized matching market.

But forget about decentralized matching markets for a moment (or google it if you'd like) and just remember: stall.

Stall, then negotiate.
Last edited by manofjustice on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby dingbat » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:03 pm

manofjustice wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:
manofjustice wrote:
joshuajsmith wrote:If one has already RSVP'd for an admitted student day, would it be better to wait to talk about $$$ after attending, or does it not really matter?


See above re: stalling. Why would you talk about money before attending admitted student day? So they can get admit another student, who will ask for less money, from the waitlist and invite that student to said day?

This is all about getting results that outperform what the school was inclined to give you in the first place.


Wait, what? Your post is confusing. Isn't he simply asking about whether to inquire about aid before going to the admitted students weekend? Why are you assuming someone else will get admitted as a result of this? No one said anything about withdrawing.


You're not getting it. Between two people, both with the same effect on medians, the school will take the one willing to come for less money. The countervailing effect on yield rate to admitting another person off the waitlist is negligible.

So, you negotiate when the waitlist is dried up of people with numbers acceptable for the school...when people have withdrawn and started their move to another city and put in their deposits at another school.

Of course, you run the risk that the school's already run out of money.
Wait. Are you arguing for negotiating sooner or later?

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby dingbat » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:04 pm

manofjustice wrote:
atay wrote:
Alassio wrote:W.r.t. negotiating with CCN (and HYS), should you negoitate before you get your initial financial aid offer?

Also, has anyone heard of HYS being moved by large $$$ offers from CCN?

thanks!


How can you ask for more porridge before you've eaten your first bowl?


Stall.

There is only one rule to negotiating with law schools--in fact, if you'd like to get extremely abstract...there is only one always effective way to negotiate in any decentralized matching market. It's to stall.

Also relevant to legal employment. Legal employment is also a decentralized matching market.

But forget about decentralized matching markets for a moment (or google it if you'd like) and just remember: stall.

Stall, then negotiate.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but Manofjustice knows nothing about economics and this doesn't make sense (especially regarding legal employment, where this is the worst fucking advice possible)

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:06 pm

Later.

The school never "runs out of money." There is no money. Your scholarship is just an accounting entry.

True, the school has a budget. But budgets can be broken. And just as important as the school's operating budget are the school's median targets--essentially, it's "budget" of below-target-median students it can accept. The latter budget is more pressing: a school can always borrow money from a bank or ask for a loan from its parent university or ask to give less money to its parent university or slow hiring or take on more 2L transfers who don't count toward medians but who usually pay full-freight...all these are ways it can address over-committing its scholarships. A school cannot do anything if it misses its median targets and as a result drops in the rankings.
Last edited by manofjustice on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:08 pm

dingbat wrote:
manofjustice wrote:
atay wrote:
Alassio wrote:W.r.t. negotiating with CCN (and HYS), should you negoitate before you get your initial financial aid offer?

Also, has anyone heard of HYS being moved by large $$$ offers from CCN?

thanks!


How can you ask for more porridge before you've eaten your first bowl?


Stall.

There is only one rule to negotiating with law schools--in fact, if you'd like to get extremely abstract...there is only one always effective way to negotiate in any decentralized matching market. It's to stall.

Also relevant to legal employment. Legal employment is also a decentralized matching market.

But forget about decentralized matching markets for a moment (or google it if you'd like) and just remember: stall.

Stall, then negotiate.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but Manofjustice knows nothing about economics and this doesn't make sense (especially regarding legal employment, where this is the worst fucking advice possible)


Dingbat, I am only going to say this once. You are dumb. And in our last debate over law school economics, guess who agreed with me and said you were wrong? Oh yea, Kyle McIntyre, the director of Law School Transparency.

MOJ 1. DingBat: .
Last edited by manofjustice on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby dingbat » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:09 pm

manofjustice wrote:Later.

The school never "runs out of money." There is no money. Your scholarship is just an accounting entry.

True, the school has a budget. But budgets can be broken. And just as important as the school's operating budget are the school's median targets--essentially, it's "budget" of below-target-median students they can accept. The latter budget is more pressing: a school can always borrow money from a bank or ask for a loan from its parent university or ask to give less money to its parent university or slow hiring or take on more 2L transfers who don't count toward medians but who usually pay full-freight...all these are ways it can address over-committing its scholarships. I school cannot do anything if it misses its median targets and as a result drops in the rankings.

There is so much wrong here I can't begin to address the issue.
Everyone who reads it, please use critical thinking. If you conclude the above makes sense, by all means follow said advice

atay
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby atay » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:42 pm

dingbat wrote:
manofjustice wrote:Later.

The school never "runs out of money." There is no money. Your scholarship is just an accounting entry.

True, the school has a budget. But budgets can be broken. And just as important as the school's operating budget are the school's median targets--essentially, it's "budget" of below-target-median students they can accept. The latter budget is more pressing: a school can always borrow money from a bank or ask for a loan from its parent university or ask to give less money to its parent university or slow hiring or take on more 2L transfers who don't count toward medians but who usually pay full-freight...all these are ways it can address over-committing its scholarships. I school cannot do anything if it misses its median targets and as a result drops in the rankings.

There is so much wrong here I can't begin to address the issue.
Everyone who reads it, please use critical thinking. If you conclude the above makes sense, by all means follow said advice


I think it makes sense. Think about it this way, say a clothing store makes 50% profit on an item, an item that costs them $10 to produce sells for $20 netting the store a $10 profit. A law school may charge $40k for tuition but it doesn't really cost them 40k per student that goes there, maybe it costs 20k. So if they give full rides to a third of the students and the rest pay full freight than they are not really "losing" money, they are just making less. My bet would be that the "costs" of giving out all of these scholarships is already built into the cost of tuition. How else can you explain the inflation of tuition compared to the rise of other costs? Why not make the crappy students overpay, freeing up money to attract the high scores and buy rankings? Would you rather buy the $100 model vacuum cleaner or the $200 model with the $100 off coupon on the front? Which would make you think you were getting the better value?

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby dingbat » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:58 pm

atay wrote:
dingbat wrote:
manofjustice wrote:Later.

The school never "runs out of money." There is no money. Your scholarship is just an accounting entry.

True, the school has a budget. But budgets can be broken. And just as important as the school's operating budget are the school's median targets--essentially, it's "budget" of below-target-median students they can accept. The latter budget is more pressing: a school can always borrow money from a bank or ask for a loan from its parent university or ask to give less money to its parent university or slow hiring or take on more 2L transfers who don't count toward medians but who usually pay full-freight...all these are ways it can address over-committing its scholarships. I school cannot do anything if it misses its median targets and as a result drops in the rankings.

There is so much wrong here I can't begin to address the issue.
Everyone who reads it, please use critical thinking. If you conclude the above makes sense, by all means follow said advice


I think it makes sense. Think about it this way, say a clothing store makes 50% profit on an item, an item that costs them $10 to produce sells for $20 netting the store a $10 profit. A law school may charge $40k for tuition but it doesn't really cost them 40k per student that goes there, maybe it costs 20k. So if they give full rides to a third of the students and the rest pay full freight than they are not really "losing" money, they are just making less. My bet would be that the "costs" of giving out all of these scholarships is already built into the cost of tuition. How else can you explain the inflation of tuition compared to the rise of other costs? Why not make the crappy students overpay, freeing up money to attract the high scores and buy rankings? Would you rather buy the $100 model vacuum cleaner or the $200 model with the $100 off coupon on the front? Which would make you think you were getting the better value?
No, the issue I have is where he talks about "budgets can be broken", or that the school can always borrow money from a bank. Whatthefuck? Is he seriously suggesting that maintaining medians is more important than keeping the school's finances in order

Last year Louisville law school screwed up by accidentally ending up giving out way too many scholarships.
link; my analysis on this last year

Think about it. Their entire budget is $8.2 million. That money needs to come from somewhere, and all the students together, at full sticker, would only net $9m. They ordinarily give out approximately $550k to each incoming class, so even if half of all scholarships are lost (that's a really bad attrition rate), that's operating at a loss (the rest of the budget will come from donations, endowment investments, etc.). A school can't afford to give significant discounts in the way he's suggesting, or the school won't be able to remain open.

goCATSgo
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby goCATSgo » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:11 am

This used to be my favorite thread to come to for legitimate informations.

Now, y'all have turned it into a screaming bitchfest.

Peace.

atay
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby atay » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:33 am

dingbat wrote:
atay wrote:
dingbat wrote:
manofjustice wrote:Later.

The school never "runs out of money." There is no money. Your scholarship is just an accounting entry.

True, the school has a budget. But budgets can be broken. And just as important as the school's operating budget are the school's median targets--essentially, it's "budget" of below-target-median students they can accept. The latter budget is more pressing: a school can always borrow money from a bank or ask for a loan from its parent university or ask to give less money to its parent university or slow hiring or take on more 2L transfers who don't count toward medians but who usually pay full-freight...all these are ways it can address over-committing its scholarships. I school cannot do anything if it misses its median targets and as a result drops in the rankings.

There is so much wrong here I can't begin to address the issue.
Everyone who reads it, please use critical thinking. If you conclude the above makes sense, by all means follow said advice


I think it makes sense. Think about it this way, say a clothing store makes 50% profit on an item, an item that costs them $10 to produce sells for $20 netting the store a $10 profit. A law school may charge $40k for tuition but it doesn't really cost them 40k per student that goes there, maybe it costs 20k. So if they give full rides to a third of the students and the rest pay full freight than they are not really "losing" money, they are just making less. My bet would be that the "costs" of giving out all of these scholarships is already built into the cost of tuition. How else can you explain the inflation of tuition compared to the rise of other costs? Why not make the crappy students overpay, freeing up money to attract the high scores and buy rankings? Would you rather buy the $100 model vacuum cleaner or the $200 model with the $100 off coupon on the front? Which would make you think you were getting the better value?
No, the issue I have is where he talks about "budgets can be broken", or that the school can always borrow money from a bank. Whatthefuck? Is he seriously suggesting that maintaining medians is more important than keeping the school's finances in order

Last year Louisville law school screwed up by accidentally ending up giving out way too many scholarships.
link; my analysis on this last year

Think about it. Their entire budget is $8.2 million. That money needs to come from somewhere, and all the students together, at full sticker, would only net $9m. They ordinarily give out approximately $550k to each incoming class, so even if half of all scholarships are lost (that's a really bad attrition rate), that's operating at a loss (the rest of the budget will come from donations, endowment investments, etc.). A school can't afford to give significant discounts in the way he's suggesting, or the school won't be able to remain open.


Agreed.

atay
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby atay » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:39 am

Also, if your stats on law professor salaries are correct then I think I have a new career goal.

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kaf5250
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby kaf5250 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:44 pm

I already had some luck negotiating this cycle. I got my stipulation for my scholarship at Temple lowered from top 50% to top 75%, got my offer from William and Mary upped by a few thousand a year, and am currently speaking with both BU and Fordham. My logic was to ask early to everyone and then wait until way later in the cycle to either ask for reconsideration if they say no or ask for even more if they up it once. I want to give myself adequate time to negotiate as many times as I can with each school until they say no before seat deposits are due. I will keep everyone posted on my success/failure

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby JamesDean1955 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:42 pm

manofjustice wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:
manofjustice wrote:
joshuajsmith wrote:If one has already RSVP'd for an admitted student day, would it be better to wait to talk about $$$ after attending, or does it not really matter?


See above re: stalling. Why would you talk about money before attending admitted student day? So they can get admit another student, who will ask for less money, from the waitlist and invite that student to said day?

This is all about getting results that outperform what the school was inclined to give you in the first place.


Wait, what? Your post is confusing. Isn't he simply asking about whether to inquire about aid before going to the admitted students weekend? Why are you assuming someone else will get admitted as a result of this? No one said anything about withdrawing.


You're not getting it. Between two people, both with the same effect on medians, the school will take the one willing to come for less money. The countervailing effect on yield rate to admitting another person off the waitlist is negligible.

So, you negotiate when the waitlist is dried up of people with numbers acceptable for the school...when people have withdrawn and started their move to another city and put in their deposits at another school.


I really don't think a school is going to pull someone off the waitlist if a student merely asks for money before an ASW. That is why I mentioned withdrawing - the only reason a school is going to pull a student from the waitlist is if someone withdraws, otherwise they are compromising yield for nothing.

Let's say someone asks for money before ASW. Let's go even more extreme and say that said person, contrary to conventional wisdom, comes right out and asks the school for a specific amount, lets say 3/4 tuition. The school cannot rescind this dude's acceptance, and pulling someone off the waitlist at that point in time would be premature. If the school doesn't want to give this guy anything and admit a waitlisted person they believe will attend for less or at sticker, they would simply wait until the deposit deadline has past to call this guy's bluff. If he doesn't deposit, THEN they will take someone off the waitlist for less money. If he does deposit, they are going to keep waiting. AT THAT POINT, the person can negotiate again, this time with more leverage, because there are fewer waitlisted people the school can draw from (they have moved on and deposited elsewhere). The school will either say no again, or cave and give this guy some money. If they say no again, the person will either attend at sticker or low cost, or withdraw (in which case THEN THEY WILL FINALLY TAKE SOMEONE OFF THE WAITLIST).

Tl;dr : The above is merely meant to prove my original, simple point: that you lose nothing by asking for money before an ASW. In fact, if attending an ASW would be a financial burden or create a scheduling conflict, you should definitely ask before because why waste your time and money going to an ASW at a school that has offered you nothing? Assuming you have other options, of course.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby JamesDean1955 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:44 pm

goCATSgo wrote:This used to be my favorite thread to come to for legitimate informations.

Now, y'all have turned it into a screaming bitchfest.

Peace.


I agree with you, but some of us are trying to make sure that this thread doesn't have a bunch of misinformation.

EDIT: And +1 to Dingbat's counter-post to ManofJustice above.
Last edited by JamesDean1955 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby dingbat » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:45 pm

^youre arguing with an idiot

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jbagelboy
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:51 pm

Hey, so is anyone currently considering the matching scholarship option for Berkeley and mulling over possibilities? I'd like to get some feedback and maybe start a new topic regarding how people are going about the matching scholarship application in terms of timing, types of peer schools, and quantities proposed/granted. thought I'd start here first if anyone has thoughts.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby JamesDean1955 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:58 pm

dingbat wrote:^youre arguing with an idiot


That, or this guy is actually a genius spreading bad scholarship advice to others to increase his own chances, lol.




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