Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

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twinkletoes16
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby twinkletoes16 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:41 pm

Teflon_Don wrote:Is 105k at UVA or 60-75k at Chicago/NYU better to approach Berkeley with??



+1 I don't know how to negotiate with berk since they do matching and they only take one offer. No negotiating apparently.

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:46 pm

twinkletoes16 wrote:
Teflon_Don wrote:Is 105k at UVA or 60-75k at Chicago/NYU better to approach Berkeley with??



+1 I don't know how to negotiate with berk since they do matching and they only take one offer. No negotiating apparently.


I am not urging you to be reckless. If that's what Berk says, then you should factor that into your risk assessment of various options.

But it is simply flat wrong to equate "what they say" with "what they do." They are trying to limit your options. It's the same thing they do when they proffer the false distinction between "merit-based" and "need-based."

And especially this cycle, what schools may have held hard to in cycles past, they may abandon now.

If you are worried that Berk will say "no" and refer to its "policy," then just negotiate hard. Wait longer and get better offers from other schools.

No school is going to say "well the policy says" when they want you, or perhaps need you, it's late in the cycle, and you've made clear it's an on/off proposition: either you give me the money and I come or you don't and I don't.

What if the school's LSAT median hinged on your matriculation. Would they really insist on a few extra tuition dollars over their US News and World Report ranking?

The Fordham dean of admissions recently admitted in an interview with TLS that often medians really do "come down to the last few candidates" (*not word-for-word quote).

And 75th and 25th matter too. While they don't matter for the US News and World report rankings, they matter for marketing. 170-171-178 is a lot nicer than 165-171-171. Schools often just omit the median and market the 25th and 75th. 170-178 v 165-171? No contest.

I haven't been emphasizing much the "honestly evaluate your own position" tenant in negotiations because there's not much reason to decline to ask for more. There might be a reason to decline to blow past a deadline, in which case, the strength of your own position would be relevant.

But at least for your emotional perspective, take note that if your LSAT or GPA is above a school's 75th percentile of last cycle, you are in an extremely strong position. And if it's late in the cycle, you can literally, literally, literally be the last few people on the dean's desk with such numbers. That's why stalling is important.

Hard negotiating for money now, in February, is useless. They just say "we'll review," stall YOU, and go to the waitlist. That is what we call a FAIL in negotiation.

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:55 pm

champs03 wrote:Couple of questions for you guys,

When negotiating scholarships, should you include the offers from other schools in your first correspondence?

Also, should you include all offers you have received even if it is from an inferior school? And should you address that yes you know it is an inferior school but any help they can give would be great?

Thanks for the help!


To the second bolded: hell no. What would be the reason to give them, ready made, their response to your request, as well as evidence, ready-made, that you're likely to go to their school anyway whether they give you what you want or not. Who goes to an "inferior school?"

To the first bolded: you want to include offers that you can credibly argue you will take. I touched on this above. Jobs, jobs, jobs and debt, debt, debt. That's the formula for turning an "inferior school with a great scholarship" into a "peer school." Fact is, GW with a scholarship is a peer school to Georgetown with none. NYU with a scholarship is a peer school to Columbia with none. Jobs, jobs, jobs and debt, debt, debt.

When the admissions dean says "but we have better job numbers." It's still "jobs, jobs, jobs and debt, debt, debt." You focus on the jobs that pay enough to service debt--big law--and note how far the number strays from 100%.

And then, you can add "gpa, gpa, gpa." There is no way around it: your GPA will probably be a little better at a lower-ranked school than at a higher-ranked school. There is some empirical reason to suspect that the career benefit to a higher-ranked school is offset to a significant extent by students earning a higher GPA at a lower-ranked school, with respect to a student who has a choice between the two. The single most important determinate of career earnings for most schools is law school GPA, not the rank of the law school, above a certain rank of law school.

You mostly are in charge of your destiny, not the admissions office of a school that refuses to recognize the financial distress of its applicants and graduates.
Last edited by manofjustice on Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:58 pm

divster wrote:
wisteria wrote:
manofjustice wrote:
manofjustice wrote:
To the first bolded: there is no such thing as "merit" and "need"--no actual distinction beyond a made-up name--except at a handful of schools. But even at those schools the financial aid office does what the dean of admissions says.




There is talk over on the Columbia thread that they don't give any merit aid after the offer you are given at the time of admittance. They do accept requests for "need-based aid" though. Does anyone have CLS specific knowledge about this? Is there just one pool of money for them but they refuse to give it out as "merit-based-aid"?


Read my posts above and stop using the terms "need-based" and "merit-based."


I guess what I meant was, is CLS one of those handful of schools that does make a distinction and thus would not be worth negotiating with.


Not that I know of. And no school is not worth negotiating with.

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby dingbat » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:58 pm

champs03 wrote:When negotiating scholarships, should you include the offers from other schools in your first correspondence?

Also, should you include all offers you have received even if it is from an inferior school? And should you address that yes you know it is an inferior school but any help they can give would be great?

Thanks for the help!

I mentioned that I had other offers, but named neither the schools nor the amounts

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby dingbat » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:02 pm

manofjustice wrote:
To the first bolded: there is no such thing as "merit" and "need"--no actual distinction beyond a made-up name--except at a handful of schools. But even at those schools the financial aid office does what the dean of admissions says.

This is about as accurate as your knowledge of economics - aka not at all.
It's a myth that schools don't give out need aid, or that there's no distinction, but this is simply not true. While details vary from school to school, quite a few give genuine need aid.
However, I'm fairly certain that any need aid will be adjusted to take into consideration any merit aid you receive (no double-dipping).

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:06 pm

dingbat wrote:
champs03 wrote:When negotiating scholarships, should you include the offers from other schools in your first correspondence?

Also, should you include all offers you have received even if it is from an inferior school? And should you address that yes you know it is an inferior school but any help they can give would be great?

Thanks for the help!

I mentioned that I had other offers, but named neither the schools nor the amounts


Every single student this cycle will get a scholarship offer, because the lower-tier schools will be giving nearly every one of their admitted students scholarships. Only decline to name the schools and the amounts if the schools and the amounts are more than one rank below. That way, you at least benefit from the ambiguity ("maybe it's a school just one rank below?" the admissions dean might think).

But before doing that, you must try to ladder up. Use the offer of the school two ranks below against a school one rank below. Then go to the target school with the offer of the school one rank below.

Another angle, by the way, if you can pull it off: noncompetitive, low paying public interest. If you can credibly and truthfully say "I want to be a DA in the city and that's it" or "I want to be a pubic defender and that's it," then you can make the case that 90% tuition at Harvard isn't a better offer than 100% at Brooklyn Law School.

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:07 pm

dingbat wrote:
manofjustice wrote:
To the first bolded: there is no such thing as "merit" and "need"--no actual distinction beyond a made-up name--except at a handful of schools. But even at those schools the financial aid office does what the dean of admissions says.

This is about as accurate as your knowledge of economics - aka not at all.
It's a myth that schools don't give out need aid, or that there's no distinction, but this is simply not true. While details vary from school to school, quite a few give genuine need aid.
However, I'm fairly certain that any need aid will be adjusted to take into consideration any merit aid you receive (no double-dipping).


Dingbat, shut up. This is an on-topic thread for the purpose of advising 0Ls, not the lounge where we bicker and debate, and my scholarship offers up and down the rankings last cycle would make you shit your pants. So I sure as hell know what I am talking about.

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby dingbat » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:09 pm

manofjustice wrote:
dingbat wrote:
manofjustice wrote:
To the first bolded: there is no such thing as "merit" and "need"--no actual distinction beyond a made-up name--except at a handful of schools. But even at those schools the financial aid office does what the dean of admissions says.

This is about as accurate as your knowledge of economics - aka not at all.
It's a myth that schools don't give out need aid, or that there's no distinction, but this is simply not true. While details vary from school to school, quite a few give genuine need aid.
However, I'm fairly certain that any need aid will be adjusted to take into consideration any merit aid you receive (no double-dipping).


Dingbat, shut up. This is an on-topic thread for the purpose of advising 0Ls, not the lounge where we bicker and debate, and my scholarship offers up and down the rankings last cycle, with my numbers, would make you shit your pants, so I sure as hell know what I am talking about.

I don't plan on debating, but there is absolutely a difference between "merit" and "need".
Also, I severely doubt I'll be impressed with your offers
(want me to pick out some more errors you've posted on this page?)

az21833
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby az21833 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:25 pm

how do we negotiate? just email the admissions bucket list? or the director of admissions? or finaid?

is it better to wait until you get an initial offer from the school or proactively address?

has anybody started negotiating this cycle yet and has anybody been successful yet?

thank you. az.

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby dingbat » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:30 pm

az21833 wrote:how do we negotiate? just email the admissions bucket list? or the director of admissions? or finaid?

is it better to wait until you get an initial offer from the school or proactively address?

has anybody started negotiating this cycle yet and has anybody been successful yet?

thank you. az.

At the very least give them enough time to make an offer (if it's been a month since your acceptance, it's fairly safe to assume you're not getting one without asking)
After that, it varies. Some schools/adcoms prefer to deal with everything over email, others might warrant a phone call.
Everyone will give different advice as to what worked for them, but just about everyone will tell you to be polite and direct. Don't be over-inclusive, there's no need to write 5 paragraphs as to why you, in particular, need more money. 2-3 lines will suffice. Also, it helps to know where you stand; if you're above both 75%s, then you'll probably need to convince them that you want to attend their school, while if you're below both 25%, you're basically throwing a hail mary and will need to tailor your approach accordingly

champs03
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby champs03 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:41 pm

manofjustice wrote:
champs03 wrote:Couple of questions for you guys,

When negotiating scholarships, should you include the offers from other schools in your first correspondence?

Also, should you include all offers you have received even if it is from an inferior school? And should you address that yes you know it is an inferior school but any help they can give would be great?

Thanks for the help!


To the second bolded: hell no. What would be the reason to give them, ready made, their response to your request, as well as evidence, ready-made, that you're likely to go to their school anyway whether they give you what you want or not. Who goes to an "inferior school?"

To the first bolded: you want to include offers that you can credibly argue you will take. I touched on this above. Jobs, jobs, jobs and debt, debt, debt. That's the formula for turning an "inferior school with a great scholarship" into a "peer school." Fact is, GW with a scholarship is a peer school to Georgetown with none. NYU with a scholarship is a peer school to Columbia with none. Jobs, jobs, jobs and debt, debt, debt.

When the admissions dean says "but we have better job numbers." It's still "jobs, jobs, jobs and debt, debt, debt." You focus on the jobs that pay enough to service debt--big law--and note how far the number strays from 100%.

And then, you can add "gpa, gpa, gpa." There is no way around it: your GPA will probably be a little better at a lower-ranked school than at a higher-ranked school. There is some empirical reason to suspect that the career benefit to a higher-ranked school is offset to a significant extent by students earning a higher GPA at a lower-ranked school, with respect to a student who has a choice between the two. The single most important determinate of career earnings for most schools is law school GPA, not the rank of the law school, above a certain rank of law school.

You mostly are in charge of your destiny, not the admissions office of a school that refuses to recognize the financial distress of its applicants and graduates.


Thanks for the help, should I say something along the lines of "if given a scholarship it will confirm my enrollment at your school"?

Rolltide52
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Rolltide52 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:55 pm

Has anyone tried just emailing this video into your school of choice? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFaAs32aw6Q

mambar
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby mambar » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:12 pm

Rolltide52 wrote:Has anyone tried just emailing this video into your school of choice? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFaAs32aw6Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbwqeSV8Wc4

I think this is the way to go when negotiating

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:34 pm

champs03 wrote:
manofjustice wrote:
champs03 wrote:Couple of questions for you guys,

When negotiating scholarships, should you include the offers from other schools in your first correspondence?

Also, should you include all offers you have received even if it is from an inferior school? And should you address that yes you know it is an inferior school but any help they can give would be great?

Thanks for the help!


To the second bolded: hell no. What would be the reason to give them, ready made, their response to your request, as well as evidence, ready-made, that you're likely to go to their school anyway whether they give you what you want or not. Who goes to an "inferior school?"

To the first bolded: you want to include offers that you can credibly argue you will take. I touched on this above. Jobs, jobs, jobs and debt, debt, debt. That's the formula for turning an "inferior school with a great scholarship" into a "peer school." Fact is, GW with a scholarship is a peer school to Georgetown with none. NYU with a scholarship is a peer school to Columbia with none. Jobs, jobs, jobs and debt, debt, debt.

When the admissions dean says "but we have better job numbers." It's still "jobs, jobs, jobs and debt, debt, debt." You focus on the jobs that pay enough to service debt--big law--and note how far the number strays from 100%.

And then, you can add "gpa, gpa, gpa." There is no way around it: your GPA will probably be a little better at a lower-ranked school than at a higher-ranked school. There is some empirical reason to suspect that the career benefit to a higher-ranked school is offset to a significant extent by students earning a higher GPA at a lower-ranked school, with respect to a student who has a choice between the two. The single most important determinate of career earnings for most schools is law school GPA, not the rank of the law school, above a certain rank of law school.

You mostly are in charge of your destiny, not the admissions office of a school that refuses to recognize the financial distress of its applicants and graduates.


Thanks for the help, should I say something along the lines of "if given a scholarship it will confirm my enrollment at your school"?


No because they'll give you 5 grand and call it a day. High-ball your initial request and say "if given this scholarship I will submit my deposit." Ideally you are asking them to match an offer at a "peer" school or a school a rank-below, so you'd say something like "if your school is able to match this other schools offer, I will submit my deposit." As to how to negotiations with offers from schools of lower ranks, see above. If another school comes through late with a higher offer, you can just burn your deposit.

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:36 pm

dingbat wrote:
az21833 wrote:how do we negotiate? just email the admissions bucket list? or the director of admissions? or finaid?

is it better to wait until you get an initial offer from the school or proactively address?

has anybody started negotiating this cycle yet and has anybody been successful yet?

thank you. az.

At the very least give them enough time to make an offer (if it's been a month since your acceptance, it's fairly safe to assume you're not getting one without asking)
After that, it varies. Some schools/adcoms prefer to deal with everything over email, others might warrant a phone call.
Everyone will give different advice as to what worked for them, but just about everyone will tell you to be polite and direct. Don't be over-inclusive, there's no need to write 5 paragraphs as to why you, in particular, need more money. 2-3 lines will suffice. Also, it helps to know where you stand; if you're above both 75%s, then you'll probably need to convince them that you want to attend their school, while if you're below both 25%, you're basically throwing a hail mary and will need to tailor your approach accordingly


Recommend writing more.

rshw89
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby rshw89 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:06 pm

mambar wrote:
Rolltide52 wrote:Has anyone tried just emailing this video into your school of choice? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFaAs32aw6Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbwqeSV8Wc4

I think this is the way to go when negotiating


I think it is more like this. We are Rod Tidwell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTFJocQBLyE

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halestorm
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby halestorm » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:33 pm

.
Last edited by halestorm on Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Micdiddy
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Micdiddy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:41 pm

.
Last edited by Micdiddy on Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

az21833
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby az21833 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:55 pm

i like the last idea. get boalt to match. then talk about some other erason why you are drawn to boalt that would make u go there if $ was equal. uva may bump up then. worth a shot - none of your other offers will matter

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby dingbat » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:32 pm

Or, you could use vague terms - I've been fortunate enough to have been accepted to such great schools as X and Y. Z is my top choice, but finances are a big concern, especially considering the significant scholarship offers I've received from other schools. Is there any way you can increase your offer?

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:33 pm

Why did we get some post deletes?

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby dingbat » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:44 pm

manofjustice wrote:Why did we get some post deletes?

Privacy

joshuajsmith
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby joshuajsmith » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:30 am

If one has already RSVP'd for an admitted student day, would it be better to wait to talk about $$$ after attending, or does it not really matter?

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby dingbat » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:17 am

joshuajsmith wrote:If one has already RSVP'd for an admitted student day, would it be better to wait to talk about $$$ after attending, or does it not really matter?

I don't think it matters, but you can fit it into your narrative
"when I visited I felt it was where I belonged, it's a perfect fit, now if only we can get those pesky financial issues smoothed away..."




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