Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

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Aroldis105
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Aroldis105 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:00 pm

Thanks for the advice.

Question, can/should a school be expected to match in-state tuition at a competing school? If I'm in-state at School A and receive 10k a year from them, will school B (OOS) match the 10k plus the in-state discount?

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stillwater
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby stillwater » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:02 pm

You back the Brinks truck up to that bitch?

Username123
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Username123 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:52 am

manofjustice wrote:Ladies and gentleman, you are all being naive.

Using terms like "need-based" and "merit-based" and wondering "if I can do this."

You have numbers and the school has a ranking. Your numbers equals the school's rankings.

Supply and demand. There are only a few people with the numbers you have, and a lot of schools who needs those numbers.

This applies all the way to the top 1. (You don't think Harvard and Yale are in a dogfight?)

So, listen to me, and do the following. I speak from experience, from my friends experience, from cold-hard statistics, and from the wisdom of law professors.

a) STALL!!! Why? Because the longer you stall, the more the supply of numbers dwindles. The best deals always come late in the cycle. How do you stall? Get the fuck out of your "ask permission" mindset. You stall by saying "I'm gonna stall." You don't stay it like that, exactly, but you come up with an excuse and you make it. Say you're poor and you can't afford to make deposits at multiple schools but many schools are still considering your aid package and you can't decide what to do until they are done.

b) Work from the bottom up. Fuck this "peer school" nonsense. If you tell a school a rank-above that the school a rank-below offered me a bunch of money, in this economy, in this legal job market, with tuition at these prices, you say "I have to take the offer of the school a rank-below." They will respond. Then, once you have the new offer in hand, look to the rank above, and climb the ladder.

c) You will get "nos." There are a lot of reasons. Your numbers could be too low. Your numbers could be too high. But the schools profit from this aura of "prestige" and "untouchableness" they cultivate. Do not play into it. Once they accept you, you have the massive upper hand. Use it. The worst they can do is say "no." And at least one school won't.


This might sound dumb, but I just want to clarify - when you say "stall", you're saying to wait later in the cycle because more admitted students are putting deposits elsewhere? So it's a little too early now for best time of negotiation?

Thanks a ton for your advice.

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:53 am

Uschoolqb10 wrote:
manofjustice wrote:Ladies and gentleman, you are all being naive.

Using terms like "need-based" and "merit-based" and wondering "if I can do this."

You have numbers and the school has a ranking. Your numbers equals the school's rankings.

Supply and demand. There are only a few people with the numbers you have, and a lot of schools who needs those numbers.

This applies all the way to the top 1. (You don't think Harvard and Yale are in a dogfight?)

So, listen to me, and do the following. I speak from experience, from my friends experience, from cold-hard statistics, and from the wisdom of law professors.

a) STALL!!! Why? Because the longer you stall, the more the supply of numbers dwindles. The best deals always come late in the cycle. How do you stall? Get the fuck out of your "ask permission" mindset. You stall by saying "I'm gonna stall." You don't stay it like that, exactly, but you come up with an excuse and you make it. Say you're poor and you can't afford to make deposits at multiple schools but many schools are still considering your aid package and you can't decide what to do until they are done.

b) Work from the bottom up. Fuck this "peer school" nonsense. If you tell a school a rank-above that the school a rank-below offered me a bunch of money, in this economy, in this legal job market, with tuition at these prices, you say "I have to take the offer of the school a rank-below." They will respond. Then, once you have the new offer in hand, look to the rank above, and climb the ladder.

c) You will get "nos." There are a lot of reasons. Your numbers could be too low. Your numbers could be too high. But the schools profit from this aura of "prestige" and "untouchableness" they cultivate. Do not play into it. Once they accept you, you have the massive upper hand. Use it. The worst they can do is say "no." And at least one school won't.


This might sound dumb, but I just want to clarify - when you say "stall", you're saying to wait later in the cycle because more admitted students are putting deposits elsewhere? So it's a little too early now for best time of negotiation?

Thanks a ton for your advice.


Correct.

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:59 am

Aroldis105 wrote:Thanks for the advice.

Question, can/should a school be expected to match in-state tuition at a competing school? If I'm in-state at School A and receive 10k a year from them, will school B (OOS) match the 10k plus the in-state discount?


Should a school be expected to? Yes. Can it be expected to? Who knows. Like I said, you'll get "nos" for a lot of reasons and you won't know what the reason is. What are the school's target medians? How close is it to its targets? You won't know.

Every school will have a very hard time meeting its targets this year, however, so you should assume you are well-positioned.

Don't forget too: cost of living. Research a school's cost of living and use it in negotiations with schools in more expensive places to live.

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Xs20
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Xs20 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:11 am

So you're saying to tell schools that you can't pay the first deposit by the deadline because you're waiting on other schools' scholly offers.. in the hopes that the school you're talking to will up your scholly before the deposit deadline? And call, not email, right?

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:25 am

Xs20 wrote:So you're saying to tell schools that you can't pay the first deposit by the deadline because you're waiting on other schools' scholly offers.. in the hopes that the school you're talking to will up your scholly before the deposit deadline?


Just stall. The only side that benefits from the deadline it imposes itself is the law school. So just flat out stall. It's about finding the other side's bottom line. Don't help the other side find yours before you find theirs. Adhering to the other side's deadline is a way to do just that.

First, don't say anything until the deadline approaches. Silence is a good tool: it's worked for me. An unsolicited offer from a T14 arrived in the inbox after weeks of silence. It also distinguishes you and your motivation. Are you just another student takin a crack at some money before saying yes or are you really unsure of what you want to do, maybe not even sure you want to go to law school. Did another school already get you? Do you have a better offer? Silence is golden.

Second, ask for an extension to a specific date you choose. It is helpful to blame your request on other schools. "Outta my hands, school X is still evaluating me for a scholarship. What can I do?" That's also extremely believable. Every school knows that almost every other school will be handing out a lot of scholarships this cycle to survive.

Third, wait a little more.

Fourth: make the case, asking for a specific amount of money. You have to make the case for why you need money and luckily, that's not hard: "I am poor and your tuition has too many zeros after it and no one gets BigLaw jobs" will work. (Really. Law school admissions deans are not somehow offended you've dared to talk about the crisis in legal education--they accept the argument and don't dare to argue with you.) Hopefully, by this time, you also have offers from other schools. Mention those offers, of course.

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:42 am

Xs20 wrote:And call, not email, right?


Email first, make the case, and then close with: plesae give me a call with any other questions.

The benefit to this is two: a) the email affords you more space to actually make your argument and b) if you have a shot at getting what you want, the admissions dean or her representative will call you. Why? Because they'll need to feel you out--again, to find your bottom line. Having her call you is an implicit admission that she wants you, and gives you more power. You can also be very gracious, saying "thank you for the call, I was so pleased to receive it" etc., which will make you look more desirable.

But the call will be high-stakes. Be prepared. Have a cup of coffee. Go over likely questions and your responses. No shame in letting it go to voice mail and then calling back--what I like to do. (But again, when she finally gets a hold of you, be gracious.)

drive4showLSAT4dough
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby drive4showLSAT4dough » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:52 am

This thread, particularly manofjustice's advice, is legendary.

So, the play is basically this as soon as you have been offered substantial money somwhere: "School X is better for me than School Y because of A, B, and C. But, School Y has offered me $$$. Is there anything School X can do to help me with this financial decision? Plz call."

And just resend to higher and higher ranked schools as you negotiate?

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twinkletoes16
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby twinkletoes16 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:59 am

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:This thread, particularly manofjustice's advice, is legendary.

So, the play is basically this as soon as you have been offered substantial money somwhere: "School X is better for me than School Y because of A, B, and C. But, School Y has offered me $$$. Is there anything School X can do to help me with this financial decision? Plz call."

And just resend to higher and higher ranked schools as you negotiate?



except call first and not email, and don't do anything until almost right before the deadline.

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twinkletoes16
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby twinkletoes16 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:00 am

the only place i see this not working is berkeley since they only do matching scholarships.

drive4showLSAT4dough
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby drive4showLSAT4dough » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:07 am

twinkletoes16 wrote:
drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:This thread, particularly manofjustice's advice, is legendary.

So, the play is basically this as soon as you have been offered substantial money somwhere: "School X is better for me than School Y because of A, B, and C. But, School Y has offered me $$$. Is there anything School X can do to help me with this financial decision? Plz call."

And just resend to higher and higher ranked schools as you negotiate?



except call first and not email, and don't do anything until almost right before the deadline.


Would you suggest ennumerating why the school I'm asking for money is actually a better fit (or whatever), or is the fact that I'm calling / emailing / asking for $ evidence of that in the first place.

nba101790
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby nba101790 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:10 am

manofjustice wrote:
Xs20 wrote:And call, not email, right?


Email first, make the case, and then close with: plesae give me a call with any other questions.

The benefit to this is two: a) the email affords you more space to actually make your argument and b) if you have a shot at getting what you want, the admissions dean or her representative will call you. Why? Because they'll need to feel you out--again, to find your bottom line. Having her call you is an implicit admission that she wants you, and gives you more power. You can also be very gracious, saying "thank you for the call, I was so pleased to receive it" etc., which will make you look more desirable.

But the call will be high-stakes. Be prepared. Have a cup of coffee. Go over likely questions and your responses. No shame in letting it go to voice mail and then calling back--what I like to do. (But again, when she finally gets a hold of you, be gracious.)


This is where I'd differ with you, though I think I agree with your intent. Personally, I'd call first, casually, and introduce myself to the Dean. Explain vaguely that I'm uncertain of my choices, do like the school, etc. Keep it brief. Tell him that I'll follow-up with an email. I would then send the said firm email off a day or two later.

I think this adds the personal element before the hard negotiating sets in.

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:14 pm

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:This thread, particularly manofjustice's advice, is legendary.

So, the play is basically this as soon as you have been offered substantial money somwhere: "School X is better for me than School Y because of A, B, and C. But, School Y has offered me $$$. Is there anything School X can do to help me with this financial decision? Plz call."

And just resend to higher and higher ranked schools as you negotiate?


Correct, just don't work too quickly. "Just stall" applies to all schools up and down the ladder. Obviously, don't start working your way up the ladder too late, because your target school at the top of the ladder might not wait. But that you have a scholarship to a school a rank below is valuable information to that school a rank above. Don't be too eager to give that school a rank above that information. As best as you can, wait for when that school is most desperate for your numbers.

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risa
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby risa » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:26 pm

re: "stalling" ... is it common that if you ask, a school will actually extend the deadline by which you have to make a seat deposit? I know some schools have an earlier seat deposit date if you've been offered a scholarship. Are they typically willing to budge in those instances too?

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:26 pm

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:
Would you suggest ennumerating why the school I'm asking for money is actually a better fit (or whatever), or is the fact that I'm calling / emailing / asking for $ evidence of that in the first place.


Great question. The answer is: you must fawn over the school you are asking for money. They need to believe that the only thing stopping you from coming to their school is the money so that all they need to do is give you what you are asking for and you're there.

We should get to the advanced-level now: what the school will do is say "okay, we'll give you x, but we want a firm commitment in the next three days."

This means you're on the right track. You've called their bluff and they know you know they are under a time pressure and need to convince you to move. The exchange is: you give them numbers and a quicker commitment, they give you money.

If the money they are offering you is the best you think you can get, you say: sure thing; I'll fedex my deposit in the next hour. If not, you say: "I could commit to you in the next three days if you gave me x+y." Don't ever, ever blame it on the school. It's not "I am not sure I want to go to your school." Always, always blame it on your family and how poor it is, how horrible the legal economy is, how expensive it is to live around the school, and other schools. "How can I made a decision in the next three days when a) your offer is financially reckless for me and b) the other schools might come through with an offer that hits my target?"

They'll hint that they want you to double-deposit. Reemphasize that you are poor.

Fawning over the school also helps bolster your professionalism: negotiating hard while being incredibly nice and gracious is a wonderful thing to see a prospective applicant for a job in the legal field do. And again, the next headache for the school is to place you into jobs, so professionalism is key.

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:33 pm

risa wrote:re: "stalling" ... is it common that if you ask, a school will actually extend the deadline by which you have to make a seat deposit? I know some schools have an earlier seat deposit date if you've been offered a scholarship. Are they typically willing to budge in those instances too?


Yep. Everything is up for negotiation. You'd be amazed at what hard negotiators get out of schools.

I've never had a school refuse to extend a deadline for me.

And truth is...even if you blow past a deadline...if you change your mind and call um up, they'll prolly let you in. Why? Because school class sizes are contracting. This isn't 2008 when you actually gave up your seat to another applicant. Now, if you don't go, no one fills the seat, unless the school takes a hit to their medians. See the dynamic change?

Sometimes the deadline will just go away. They'll say "look we can't give you any more money, but let us know whenever if you decide to take the other school's offer."

Often, the dean of the school will come in around June and empower the dean of admissions to hand out a lot more money to get late deciders to budge. I am thinking of at least 3 schools for which this happened last cycle.

Campos had reports that around late June, the dean...the dean of the entire school of a T20...was personally calling applicants asking them to come.

Time is ALWAYS your friend. Again, the schools construct this aura: your fancy welcome letter, "oh we really looked hard at your application," "geeze we had to put you on the waitlist because there are just so many great candidates." It's all bull.

The flip side is: are you guaranteed to get what you want? Hell no. But don't let a few "nos" deter you. If you're not hearing "no" more than once from more than one school, you're not doing it right.

And if you get a "no," it doesn't mean that you can't play at that level. It just means that for that specific school, you're demands are not a fit. But I can assure you that for some schools at that level and above, you will be.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby JamesDean1955 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:54 pm

I think emailing first, then a call (if necessary) is TCR.

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Xs20
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Xs20 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:57 pm

Thanks for all your advice, manofjustice. Really appreciate it!

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ariadne328
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby ariadne328 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:03 pm

Xs20 wrote:Thanks for all your advice, manofjustice. Really appreciate it!

Yes! Thanks!

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby JamesDean1955 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:03 pm

On a related note, is there a thread that compiles all of the deposit deadlines for each school and/or by date?

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hobie2515
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby hobie2515 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:36 pm

manofjustice wrote:
risa wrote:re: "stalling" ... is it common that if you ask, a school will actually extend the deadline by which you have to make a seat deposit? I know some schools have an earlier seat deposit date if you've been offered a scholarship. Are they typically willing to budge in those instances too?


Yep. Everything is up for negotiation. You'd be amazed at what hard negotiators get out of schools.

I've never had a school refuse to extend a deadline for me.

And truth is...even if you blow past a deadline...if you change your mind and call um up, they'll prolly let you in. Why? Because school class sizes are contracting. This isn't 2008 when you actually gave up your seat to another applicant. Now, if you don't go, no one fills the seat, unless the school takes a hit to their medians. See the dynamic change?

Sometimes the deadline will just go away. They'll say "look we can't give you any more money, but let us know whenever if you decide to take the other school's offer."



Often, the dean of the school will come in around June and empower the dean of admissions to hand out a lot more money to get late deciders to budge. I am thinking of at least 3 schools for which this happened last cycle.

Campos had reports that around late June, the dean...the dean of the entire school of a T20...was personally calling applicants asking them to come.

Time is ALWAYS your friend. Again, the schools construct this aura: your fancy welcome letter, "oh we really looked hard at your application," "geeze we had to put you on the waitlist because there are just so many great candidates." It's all bull.

The flip side is: are you guaranteed to get what you want? Hell no. But don't let a few "nos" deter you. If you're not hearing "no" more than once from more than one school, you're not doing it right.

And if you get a "no," it doesn't mean that you can't play at that level. It just means that for that specific school, you're demands are not a fit. But I can assure you that for some schools at that level and above, you will be.


Great advice, really appreciate all your input. I just had a question, would you suggest beginning the hardball process at the initial seat deadline, or waiting even further for the 2nd deadline (or even the tuition deadline)?

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manofjustice
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby manofjustice » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:40 am

hobie2515 wrote:
manofjustice wrote:
risa wrote:re: "stalling" ... is it common that if you ask, a school will actually extend the deadline by which you have to make a seat deposit? I know some schools have an earlier seat deposit date if you've been offered a scholarship. Are they typically willing to budge in those instances too?


Yep. Everything is up for negotiation. You'd be amazed at what hard negotiators get out of schools.

I've never had a school refuse to extend a deadline for me.

And truth is...even if you blow past a deadline...if you change your mind and call um up, they'll prolly let you in. Why? Because school class sizes are contracting. This isn't 2008 when you actually gave up your seat to another applicant. Now, if you don't go, no one fills the seat, unless the school takes a hit to their medians. See the dynamic change?

Sometimes the deadline will just go away. They'll say "look we can't give you any more money, but let us know whenever if you decide to take the other school's offer."



Often, the dean of the school will come in around June and empower the dean of admissions to hand out a lot more money to get late deciders to budge. I am thinking of at least 3 schools for which this happened last cycle.

Campos had reports that around late June, the dean...the dean of the entire school of a T20...was personally calling applicants asking them to come.

Time is ALWAYS your friend. Again, the schools construct this aura: your fancy welcome letter, "oh we really looked hard at your application," "geeze we had to put you on the waitlist because there are just so many great candidates." It's all bull.

The flip side is: are you guaranteed to get what you want? Hell no. But don't let a few "nos" deter you. If you're not hearing "no" more than once from more than one school, you're not doing it right.

And if you get a "no," it doesn't mean that you can't play at that level. It just means that for that specific school, you're demands are not a fit. But I can assure you that for some schools at that level and above, you will be.


Great advice, really appreciate all your input. I just had a question, would you suggest beginning the hardball process at the initial seat deadline, or waiting even further for the 2nd deadline (or even the tuition deadline)?


This is a factor-dependent question. So, essentially, you're asking "when should I stop stalling?"

The answer is that if it's your target school, you stop as late as you can. No real school is going to let you go to the tuition deadline without some sort of indication of commitment--they may waive the actual deposit, but would then require you to signal your intent to attend. But after your initial request for money, you'll say "okay, let me think about it." Then you'll go to other schools and at some point will say to the target school "I have informed this other school of your offer and now they are still considering their offer, can you go to x dollars so that I can just put an end to this and go to your school?" That back and forth could go to the tuition deadline, yes. Absolutely.

I'd say start a week before any deadlines the school refuses to push back. At least one extension is usually a gimmie. The second extension, iffy. When they refuse to budge the deadline, start about 5 days before that deadline.

But again, starting the negotiation process and getting an offer should in effect push back the deadline, while other schools are considering what their offers are going to be in light of the offer you get. You say to the one school "thank you for the offer, but the other school is considering or reconsidering theirs."

If it's not your target school, you want to stall a bit to gain leverage, but not too long that when they give you money, it's too late to complete the "ladder-up" process all the way to your target school.

All in all, it's February, and still very, very, very early in the cycle. Very early. You could wait a month or three and it wouldn't phase me.

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sanjola
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby sanjola » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:01 am

tag

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you'rethemannowdawg
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby you'rethemannowdawg » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:44 am

Am I to conclude that an applicant will not lose his/her seat at a T14 if he/she simply ignores the seat deposit deadline? As a splitter, the idea of ignoring the deadline at a place like NYU or Penn makes me uncomfortable.




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