Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

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Falcon3
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Falcon3 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:22 pm

Well, I got my first stonewall today. My almost-unranked school emailed me back and told me that they rarely reconsider scholarships, even in the face of receiving an almost-full T scholly from a school in the 30's. I was then told I would have to submit an appeal, but was given no instructions on how to do so, other than to email the admissions general email address, which I did with my first inquiry. Basically seems like they're trying to discourage me from pressing further.

So....how hard should I push now? Do I go fairly aggressive (but still polite and reasonable) and tell them how low they're ranked, how many more people lose scholarships, and how much less money they offered me in comparison to the higher ranked school? Or should I temper things and probe them a bit first?

Any suggestions?

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ChemEng1642
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby ChemEng1642 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:29 pm

Falcon3 wrote:Well, I got my first stonewall today. My almost-unranked school emailed me back and told me that they rarely reconsider scholarships, even in the face of receiving an almost-full T scholly from a school in the 30's. I was then told I would have to submit an appeal, but was given no instructions on how to do so, other than to email the admissions general email address, which I did with my first inquiry. Basically seems like they're trying to discourage me from pressing further.

So....how hard should I push now? Do I go fairly aggressive (but still polite and reasonable) and tell them how low they're ranked, how many more people lose scholarships, and how much less money they offered me in comparison to the higher ranked school? Or should I temper things and probe them a bit first?

Any suggestions?


Definitely don't do that

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nosocat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby nosocat » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:30 pm

ChemEng1642 wrote:
Falcon3 wrote:Well, I got my first stonewall today. My almost-unranked school emailed me back and told me that they rarely reconsider scholarships, even in the face of receiving an almost-full T scholly from a school in the 30's. I was then told I would have to submit an appeal, but was given no instructions on how to do so, other than to email the admissions general email address, which I did with my first inquiry. Basically seems like they're trying to discourage me from pressing further.

So....how hard should I push now? Do I go fairly aggressive (but still polite and reasonable) and tell them how low they're ranked, how many more people lose scholarships, and how much less money they offered me in comparison to the higher ranked school? Or should I temper things and probe them a bit first?

Any suggestions?


Definitely don't do that

This made me actually LOL.

Falcon3
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Falcon3 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:37 pm

Well, this is what I was thinking about putting

"T1School is also very competitively ranked. Although I realize the US News & World Report rankings are by no means infallible, they are a well-used way of objectively evaluating a law school. T1School's rank of XX in the nation compared to TTTSchool's ranking of 1XX would seem to suggest that I could get a better legal education at T1School."

I would then go on to explain why, despite many reasons, I would prefer to attend TTTSchool. Is this too harsh? I feel like it's objective and reasoned. I'm sure that the AdComs KNOW their ranking sucks, but by stating this, they will then know that I know I could do better elsewhere.

ETA: T1School basically beats TTT in Employment, Bar Passage, Student/Instructor ratio, total tuition paid, ranking, and scholarship retention-
- please don't lecture me on why I'm wanting to go to this TTT instead of the T1- I have my own reasons-

My question: How many of these factors should I outline in my response email/appeal? I sort of feel like if I put all of them, I'm totally dissing them, but if I don't, I'm potentially leaving stuff on the table. By putting all the reasons down, I can also show them that I've done my research, realized in a perfect world, I WOULDN'T attend their school, but am choosing to continue pursuing them anyway, which should tell them I'm pretty serious about them-

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ChemEng1642
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby ChemEng1642 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:48 pm

Falcon3 wrote:Well, this is what I was thinking about putting

"T1School is also very competitively ranked. Although I realize the US News & World Report rankings are by no means infallible, they are a well-used way of objectively evaluating a law school. T1School's rank of XX in the nation compared to TTTSchool's ranking of 1XX would seem to suggest that I could get a better legal education at T1School."

I would then go on to explain why, despite many reasons, I would prefer to attend TTTSchool. Is this too harsh? I feel like it's objective and reasoned. I'm sure that the AdComs KNOW their ranking sucks, but by stating this, they will then know that I know I could do better elsewhere.


Definitely definitely don't do that.

In all seriousness, you're going to offend the school by suggesting you'll get a worse legal education there because of a ranking system that frankly isn't the best. Emphasize the differences between the two schools without referencing factors that really shouldn't be relevant (read: ranking on USNWR)
Last edited by ChemEng1642 on Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Winston1984
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Winston1984 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:50 pm

nosocat wrote:
ChemEng1642 wrote:
Falcon3 wrote:Well, I got my first stonewall today. My almost-unranked school emailed me back and told me that they rarely reconsider scholarships, even in the face of receiving an almost-full T scholly from a school in the 30's. I was then told I would have to submit an appeal, but was given no instructions on how to do so, other than to email the admissions general email address, which I did with my first inquiry. Basically seems like they're trying to discourage me from pressing further.

So....how hard should I push now? Do I go fairly aggressive (but still polite and reasonable) and tell them how low they're ranked, how many more people lose scholarships, and how much less money they offered me in comparison to the higher ranked school? Or should I temper things and probe them a bit first?

Any suggestions?


Definitely don't do that

This made me actually LOL.

Falcon3
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Falcon3 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:52 pm

ChemEng1642 wrote:
Definitely definitely don't do that.

In all seriousness, you're going to offend the school by suggesting you'll get a worse legal education there because of a ranking system that frankly isn't the best. Emphasize the differences between the two schools without referencing factors that really shouldn't be relevant (read: ranking on USNWR)


So how do people go about mentioning rank? Because using the rankings is a recurring example of what TO do when negotiating-

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spencercross
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby spencercross » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:52 pm

Falcon3 wrote:Well, this is what I was thinking about putting

"T1School is also very competitively ranked. Although I realize the US News & World Report rankings are by no means infallible, they are a well-used way of objectively evaluating a law school. T1School's rank of XX in the nation compared to TTTSchool's ranking of 1XX would seem to suggest that I could get a better legal education at T1School."

I would then go on to explain why, despite many reasons, I would prefer to attend TTTSchool. Is this too harsh? I feel like it's objective and reasoned. I'm sure that the AdComs KNOW their ranking sucks, but by stating this, they will then know that I know I could do better elsewhere.

ETA: T1School basically beats TTT in Employment, Bar Passage, Student/Instructor ratio, total tuition paid, ranking, and scholarship retention-
- please don't lecture me on why I'm wanting to go to this TTT instead of the T1- I have my own reasons-

My question: How many of these factors should I outline in my response email/appeal? I sort of feel like if I put all of them, I'm totally dissing them, but if I don't, I'm potentially leaving stuff on the table. By putting all the reasons down, I can also show them that I've done my research, realized in a perfect world, I WOULDN'T attend their school, but am choosing to continue pursuing them anyway, which should tell them I'm pretty serious about them-
This is a terrible idea. From Spivey's blog post on negotiating:

Telling a school they should increase you award, telling a school they are inferior to another or they have to match another law school’s award — all of these are bad ideas.
They know their ranking sucks. Telling them that is just rubbing salt in the wound. You can tell them the "many reasons you would prefer to attend TTTSchool" without insinuating that they offer inferior education.

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spencercross
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby spencercross » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:55 pm

Falcon3 wrote:
ChemEng1642 wrote:
Definitely definitely don't do that.

In all seriousness, you're going to offend the school by suggesting you'll get a worse legal education there because of a ranking system that frankly isn't the best. Emphasize the differences between the two schools without referencing factors that really shouldn't be relevant (read: ranking on USNWR)


So how do people go about mentioning rank? Because using the rankings is a recurring example of what TO do when negotiating-

You can tell them you got a better offer from" T1School" and they know what rank it is. They're law school admissions professionals. The point is not to imply that you're doing them some kind of favor by attending their poorly ranked school.

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Winston1984
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Winston1984 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:00 pm

Falcon3 wrote:
ChemEng1642 wrote:
Definitely definitely don't do that.

In all seriousness, you're going to offend the school by suggesting you'll get a worse legal education there because of a ranking system that frankly isn't the best. Emphasize the differences between the two schools without referencing factors that really shouldn't be relevant (read: ranking on USNWR)


So how do people go about mentioning rank? Because using the rankings is a recurring example of what TO do when negotiating-

You shouldn't.

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ChemEng1642
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby ChemEng1642 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:06 pm

spencercross wrote:
Falcon3 wrote:
ChemEng1642 wrote:
Definitely definitely don't do that.

In all seriousness, you're going to offend the school by suggesting you'll get a worse legal education there because of a ranking system that frankly isn't the best. Emphasize the differences between the two schools without referencing factors that really shouldn't be relevant (read: ranking on USNWR)


So how do people go about mentioning rank? Because using the rankings is a recurring example of what TO do when negotiating-

You can tell them you got a better offer from" T1School" and they know what rank it is. They're law school admissions professionals. The point is not to imply that you're doing them some kind of favor by attending their poorly ranked school.


+1

supersplittysplitter
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby supersplittysplitter » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:07 pm

when negotiating, shouldn't the ONLY negative thing we mention about the school in question be the cost?

So if I'm negotiating with school A, I should give all the reasons I want to go there and then say the ONLY thing that could possibly force me to choose school B instead is that school B gave me a higher scholly, and that obviously these financial considerations need to be taken into account. So you're presenting a dilemma to the admissions committee where you realllyyy want to go to their law school but the only problem is the $$$ (which they will hopefully fix)

That's my thinking anyway. I get the sense that flattery goes a long way with these university administrator types

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ChemEng1642
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby ChemEng1642 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:11 pm

supersplittysplitter wrote:when negotiating, shouldn't the ONLY negative thing we mention about the school in question be the cost?

So if I'm negotiating with school A, I should give all the reasons I want to go there and then say the ONLY thing that could possibly force me to choose school B instead is that school B gave me a higher scholly, and that obviously these financial considerations need to be taken into account. So you're presenting a dilemma to the admissions committee where you realllyyy want to go to their law school but the only problem is the $$$ (which they will hopefully fix)

That's my thinking anyway. I get the sense that flattery goes a long way with these university administrator types


I think you can throw in other things as long as it ties back to cost. Ex: The area the school is in is expensive --> there I would like more money to attend. But of course it has to be more expensive location than comparable offers.

But then I would be curious to know how you leverage a YHS acceptance with other schools where you have gotten more money than YHS has given you...(and by curious I mean I'm in this situation and would appreciate suggestions :P)

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spencercross
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby spencercross » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:20 pm

ChemEng1642 wrote:But then I would be curious to know how you leverage a YHS acceptance with other schools where you have gotten more money than YHS has given you...(and by curious I mean I'm in this situation and would appreciate suggestions :P)


You leverage them by them being HYS. Quoting from another forum:

When you say negotiate with other schools, could I use an in at Stanford to get money/raise money at a different T14 school? Even if Stanford gives me no money?

Yes, most other schools will recognize that Stanford is usually a terminal outcome for the best applicants and will know that they'd have to offer you something good to skip going there.

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nosocat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby nosocat » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:23 pm

ChemEng1642 wrote:
supersplittysplitter wrote:when negotiating, shouldn't the ONLY negative thing we mention about the school in question be the cost?

So if I'm negotiating with school A, I should give all the reasons I want to go there and then say the ONLY thing that could possibly force me to choose school B instead is that school B gave me a higher scholly, and that obviously these financial considerations need to be taken into account. So you're presenting a dilemma to the admissions committee where you realllyyy want to go to their law school but the only problem is the $$$ (which they will hopefully fix)

That's my thinking anyway. I get the sense that flattery goes a long way with these university administrator types


I think you can throw in other things as long as it ties back to cost. Ex: The area the school is in is expensive --> there I would like more money to attend. But of course it has to be more expensive location than comparable offers.

But then I would be curious to know how you leverage a YHS acceptance with other schools where you have gotten more money than YHS has given you...(and by curious I mean I'm in this situation and would appreciate suggestions :P)

Tough life! One idea (which may or may not be good) would be to say that you're honored to have received offers of admission to so many great schools, including HYS etc., but financial considerations are very important to you, and if they'd increase their offer, it would be sooooo cool. I don't know though, I feel like the tone could seem sort of braggy. :? Maybe someone with experience could chime in.

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ChemEng1642
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby ChemEng1642 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:25 pm

spencercross wrote:
ChemEng1642 wrote:But then I would be curious to know how you leverage a YHS acceptance with other schools where you have gotten more money than YHS has given you...(and by curious I mean I'm in this situation and would appreciate suggestions :P)


You leverage them by them being HYS. Quoting from another forum:

When you say negotiate with other schools, could I use an in at Stanford to get money/raise money at a different T14 school? Even if Stanford gives me no money?

Yes, most other schools will recognize that Stanford is usually a terminal outcome for the best applicants and will know that they'd have to offer you something good to skip going there.


Thanks! I mean more the the phrasing though.

I don't want to say "I really appreciate your half tuition scholly but I got into HYS so...you should give more $$?" I just don't know how to phrase that without blatantly pulling rank.

Alternatively - what is better? Negotiating with a T6 using lower T14 full scholly + stipend offer or with HYS offer?

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ChemEng1642
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby ChemEng1642 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:26 pm

nosocat wrote:Tough life! One idea (which may or may not be good) would be to say that you're honored to have received offers of admission to so many great schools, including HYS etc., but financial considerations are very important to you, and if they'd increase their offer, it would be sooooo cool. I don't know though, I feel like the tone could seem sort of braggy. :? Maybe someone with experience could chime in.


Yeah phrasing was my mine concern - goal is not to sound like an ass :P

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nosocat
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby nosocat » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:35 pm

ChemEng1642 wrote:
spencercross wrote:
ChemEng1642 wrote:But then I would be curious to know how you leverage a YHS acceptance with other schools where you have gotten more money than YHS has given you...(and by curious I mean I'm in this situation and would appreciate suggestions :P)


You leverage them by them being HYS. Quoting from another forum:

When you say negotiate with other schools, could I use an in at Stanford to get money/raise money at a different T14 school? Even if Stanford gives me no money?

Yes, most other schools will recognize that Stanford is usually a terminal outcome for the best applicants and will know that they'd have to offer you something good to skip going there.


Thanks! I mean more the the phrasing though.

I don't want to say "I really appreciate your half tuition scholly but I got into HYS so...you should give more $$?" I just don't know how to phrase that without blatantly pulling rank.

Alternatively - what is better? Negotiating with a T6 using lower T14 full scholly + stipend offer or with HYS offer?

With the caveat that I don't know what's traditionally considered TCR with law school admissions, you could work in both. Mention that you are trying to decide among their school as well as the lower T14 (where you have received offer of $x) and HYS. Then go into the thing about how financial considerations are very important, and would they be able to come closer to the other T14 offer. That way you can bring up HYS without saying, "I got into Harvard, you know ..."

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ChemEng1642
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby ChemEng1642 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:39 pm

nosocat wrote:
ChemEng1642 wrote:
Alternatively - what is better? Negotiating with a T6 using lower T14 full scholly + stipend offer or with HYS offer?

With the caveat that I don't know what's traditionally considered TCR with law school admissions, you could work in both. Mention that you are trying to decide among their school as well as the lower T14 (where you have received offer of $x) and HYS. Then go into the thing about how financial considerations are very important, and would they be able to come closer to the other T14 offer. That way you can bring up HYS without saying, "I got into Harvard, you know ..."


Oh this is good - thanks!

ducks1989
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby ducks1989 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:49 am

Is there an ideal time frame to negotiate? Closer to seat deposit deadlines or is sooner better?

Thanks for any advice on this!

Bust3453
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Bust3453 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:08 pm

ducks1989 wrote:Is there an ideal time frame to negotiate? Closer to seat deposit deadlines or is sooner better?

Thanks for any advice on this!


The logic I've heard is that you want your best offer negotiation with the school you most want to attend to occur as close to the deposit deadline as possible. In other words, if you know you want to attend a T6 with as big of a discount as possible, negotiate your T14 offers against each other a reasonable time before you're going to go attempt to negotiate with the T6. That way, if you can get, say Michigan to raise its offer by 15k because you showed them a Northwestern offer, you'll then have more leverage when you take the Michigan offer to Columbia, or whatever. Obviously all of that is dependent on where your "top school" is, and what other schools you have offers from.

hearsay77
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby hearsay77 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:47 pm

Has anyone tried and/or been successful negotiating with USC yet? If so, can you PM me? I have a question I don't want to post publicly.

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Four Winds
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Four Winds » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:40 pm

What's TCR on how long you should wait after getting an award decision to try and negotiate? I don't want to seem pushy but I also feel like it would behoove me to move sooner rather than later so that I can maximize my chances to get whatever $$ they haven't given out yet.

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Bird Lawyer
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Bird Lawyer » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:51 pm

Why don't you want to seem pushy? You're trying to become a lawyer. Lawyers are pushy.

Which isn't to say you should start now! I honestly have no idea and would like to know the answer to this as well.

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Skool
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Skool » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:09 pm

Four Winds wrote:What's TCR on how long you should wait after getting an award decision to try and negotiate? I don't want to seem pushy but I also feel like it would behoove me to move sooner rather than later so that I can maximize my chances to get whatever $$ they haven't given out yet.
My understanding is that this is the last month to negotiate before the April 1 date where law schools can ask you to enroll after they make a fin aid offer.

To me, that makes it urgent to not waste any time and start negotiating. I truly don't know TCR, but if it were me, I wouldn't wait longer than a few days. There's just not a lot of time to be tactful if you're expecting to go a couple of rounds with these guys.




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