Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

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RareExports
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby RareExports » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:54 pm

retsiger wrote:
Edlund wrote:I believe all schools have the ability to see (through LSAC) if you've deposited elsewhere."


Wait, is that true?

As far as I'm aware, yes.

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/the-mu ... ot-happen/

"schools to which you have deposited can run customized reports to see if any admits have paid additional deposits at other schools. The report contains names of the deposited applicant as well as the other school(s) to which they have deposited."

And http://www.lsac.org/jd/applying-to-law- ... -to-admit/

"Each year, LSAC provides participating law schools with periodic reports detailing the number of applicants who have submitted seat deposits or commitments at other participating schools, along with identification of those other schools. Beginning May 15 each year, these reports also include the names and LSAC account numbers for all candidates who have deposits/commitments at multiple participating schools."

retsiger
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby retsiger » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:59 pm

Edlund wrote:
retsiger wrote:
Edlund wrote:I believe all schools have the ability to see (through LSAC) if you've deposited elsewhere."


Wait, is that true?

As far as I'm aware, yes.

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/the-mu ... ot-happen/

"schools to which you have deposited can run customized reports to see if any admits have paid additional deposits at other schools. The report contains names of the deposited applicant as well as the other school(s) to which they have deposited."

And http://www.lsac.org/jd/applying-to-law- ... -to-admit/

"Each year, LSAC provides participating law schools with periodic reports detailing the number of applicants who have submitted seat deposits or commitments at other participating schools, along with identification of those other schools. Beginning May 15 each year, these reports also include the names and LSAC account numbers for all candidates who have deposits/commitments at multiple participating schools."


Wow, good to know. Thanks.

JMWZ
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby JMWZ » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:27 pm

retsiger wrote:Wow, good to know. Thanks.


However, that's all the way on May 15th. Which gives you a lot of time, also if you read this link, it says how unlikely any school would be to withdraw an admittance or scholarship.

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/the-mu ... ot-happen/

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Drowninmyowntears
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Drowninmyowntears » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:54 am

*Sorry if this has already been addressed, I just don't have time to read all 70 pages of the thread*

A couple questions:

1. When leveraging offers, should you mention the exact number school B offered you to get more from school A? Or can you just say "school B offered me more?" The reason I'm asking is I got a little more from one school than the other and was hoping to get more than just the $5,000/yr bump that would make them even.

2. How close in rank do schools need to be in order for them to be effective leverage against each other? Maybe in the T14 it's more critical, but say the T15-50...are those all fairly comprable or not at all?

3. It seems like a lot of people include a "if you could offer me more money, this would definitely be my top choice" in their negotiations. Is it super unethical to put that if it's not true and I'm just trying to get the highest offer possible?

Any tips/tricks appreciated!!

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PowerHungry
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby PowerHungry » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:19 pm

I feel like I have a million questions for this part of the process, but I'll just start with the most basic.

When should you start negotiating (in terms of the calendar)? Is early Feb too early?

Also, it seems obvious, but shouldn't someone use how much they'd have to borrow for tuition, COA, whatever as the primary leverage more than scholarship offer? For instance, rather than saying, "Peer School X offered me $30K/year and you're only offering me $20K, what can you do?", wouldn't something like this be better "considering their scholarship offer and COA, if I go to Peer School X, I would have to borrow $10K/year, and right now with your offer and COA, I would have to borrow $15K/year. What can you do?"
Last edited by PowerHungry on Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Iwanttolawschool
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Iwanttolawschool » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:20 pm

I had a piggyback question to above, is it normal to scan and show other scholarship offers to other schools, or can I just say it? Hypothetically, what's stopping me from saying school A offered me $100,000 if they only offered $80,000?

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:25 pm

Iwanttolawschool wrote:I had a piggyback question to above, is it normal to scan and show other scholarship offers to other schools, or can I just say it? Hypothetically, what's stopping me from saying school A offered me $100,000 if they only offered $80,000?


Sometimes schools want to see the scholarship letters

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Winston1984
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Winston1984 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:32 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:
Iwanttolawschool wrote:I had a piggyback question to above, is it normal to scan and show other scholarship offers to other schools, or can I just say it? Hypothetically, what's stopping me from saying school A offered me $100,000 if they only offered $80,000?


Sometimes schools want to see the scholarship letters

Exactly. Would be really dumb to lie.

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LawsRUs
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby LawsRUs » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:35 pm

hypothetically some of them cld be friends and call one another and ask why did you guys uncharacteristically give this person so much money

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pcph
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby pcph » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:44 pm

.
Last edited by pcph on Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

hearsay77
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby hearsay77 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:57 pm

PowerHungry wrote:I feel like I have a million questions for this part of the process, but I'll just start with the most basic.

When should you start negotiating (in terms of the calendar)? Is early Feb too early?

Also, it seems obvious, but shouldn't someone use how much they'd have to borrow for tuition, COA, whatever as the primary leverage more than scholarship offer? For instance, rather than saying, "Peer School X offered me $30K/year and you're only offering me $20K, what can you do?", wouldn't something like this be better "considering their scholarship offer and COA, if I go to Peer School X, I would have to borrow $10K/year, and right now with your offer and COA, I would have to borrow $15K/year. What can you do?"


Not sure about the first question, as I'm wondering the same thing.

As for the second, I think thats probably the most effective approach, unless its not in your favor with the school you're trying to get money from.

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Iwanttolawschool
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Iwanttolawschool » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:00 pm

pcph wrote:So should you just say the offers you have from other schools first, and then email proof if they ask? Or show the proof (letters) right up front?

Also, I have been accepted to such a wide range of schools (top 20 to 80s), should I include all scholarship offers when I try to negotiate with a school, or just relevant ones?


This is essentially what I wanted to know as well, and why I asked my hypothetical

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Dipper
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Dipper » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:04 pm

Winston1984 wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:
Iwanttolawschool wrote:I had a piggyback question to above, is it normal to scan and show other scholarship offers to other schools, or can I just say it? Hypothetically, what's stopping me from saying school A offered me $100,000 if they only offered $80,000?


Sometimes schools want to see the scholarship letters

Exactly. Would be really dumb to lie.


That would be a really terrible, terrible idea. Schools do call other schools. http://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2z/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=17

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Winston1984
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Winston1984 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:29 pm

Dipper wrote:
Winston1984 wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:
Iwanttolawschool wrote:I had a piggyback question to above, is it normal to scan and show other scholarship offers to other schools, or can I just say it? Hypothetically, what's stopping me from saying school A offered me $100,000 if they only offered $80,000?


Sometimes schools want to see the scholarship letters

Exactly. Would be really dumb to lie.


That would be a really terrible, terrible idea. Schools do call other schools. http://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2z/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=17

rekt

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:42 pm

Two: whatever you do, don’t lie. Here’s another aphorism: Honesty really is the best policy. What I’ve described is a pretty clear-cut case of deliberate misrepresentation, and in the absence of some astonishing explanation, I am compelled to report the candidate to the Law School Admissions Council for misconduct in the admissions process. That may mean that this candidate doesn’t go to law school at all.

Important thing from that article

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chuckbass
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby chuckbass » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:50 pm

LawsRUs wrote:hypothetically some of them cld be friends and call one another and ask why did you guys uncharacteristically give this person so much money

There's a law school adcomm fb group.

So yeah, just don't be an idiot.

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Skool
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Skool » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:38 am

Dean Z wrote: Now, it is our policy, stated in the scholarship award letters, not to alter scholarship awards once they have been made, but the receptionist quite correctly advised him to email the office with the information about the other awards. However unlikely it may be that we’ll alter our stated policy, she knows that we always want to be able to consider individual circumstances.
There's a lot that could be said about the ethics of this statement.

A reasonable person might be confused about whether Michigan competes against other offers or not. That confusion might cause an applicant to be disadvantaged relative to other candidates in financing their education. Perhaps this confusion (intentionally introduced?) is arbitrary enough to cause some genuine unfairness in the scholarship negotiation?

Of course, asking those questions on a public forum might be an imprudent move for a humble applicant whose future is in the hands of Dean Z.

Suffice it to say there's something strange about a law school threatening to go to the LSAC about "misconduct in the admissions process" because students are trying to out-rip them off in (what some people who are definitely, definitely, not me might call) a giant game of rip-off.

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Dipper
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Dipper » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:46 am

Skool wrote:Suffice it to say there's something strange about a law school threatening to go to the LSAC about "misconduct in the admissions process" because students are trying to out-rip them off in (what some people who are definitely, definitely, not me might call) a giant game of rip-off.


Really? Kid straight-up lied about a scholarship offer. LSAC states clearly that misconduct and irregularities in the admissions process include "providing false, inconsistent, or misleading information in the admission and financial aid/scholarship application process." http://www.lsac.org/jd/lsat/misconduct-and-irregularities

How does this compare at all to Michigan considering certain individuals' circumstances in determining whether or not to adjust a student's scholarship?

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Skool
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Skool » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:12 am

Dipper wrote:
How does this compare at all to Michigan considering certain individuals' circumstances in determining whether or not to adjust a student's scholarship?
Obviously it depends on what it means to "consider certain individuals' circumstances". Is the individual circumstance I have a 180 and a 4.0 1/2 scholarship from elsewhere vs. I have a 170 and a 3.8 1/4 scholarship from elsewhere? If those are the only differences in individual circumstances and the 180's "circumstance" gets a better deal... that's just negotiating with the person who has more bargaining power and telling the other guy to GTFO with his broke ass, not giving special consideration to the fact that he just had to pay out of pocket for a hip replacement, or something.

And if this is what it means to take into account "individual circumstance", and we have a scenario where two people are "similarly situated" but only one has the gumption to ask (the other having been discouraged from asking by Michigan's statements that they don't negotiate, Michigan's discouragement would appear to be misleading, no?

Again, it's a question of what it means to "consider individual circumstances." If Michigan is quietly negotiating with competitive candidates with the gumption to ask (and irl I know someone who last cycle reported negotiating between Michigan and Georgetown with no special circumstance I could discern), it seems the tinsyist bit misleading with the purpose of limiting negotiation.

You see it differently?

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Drowninmyowntears
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Drowninmyowntears » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:53 am

[/quote]
Suffice it to say there's something strange about a law school threatening to go to the LSAC about "misconduct in the admissions process" because students are trying to out-rip them off in (what some people who are definitely, definitely, not me might call) a giant game of rip-off.[/quote]

The misconduct isn't that he tried to get more money, it's that he lied about it. They understand that people are going to negotiate, that is expected. If people were allowed to lie like that and get away with it, then we could all lie and say we got huge scholarships to great schools. Not saying that I necessarily agree with the system... (in fact, I'm entirely opposed to meritocratic systems) but it makes sense that people should not be allowed to lie about how much they were offered at schools.

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Skool
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Skool » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:44 am

I am a little unsettled here. I can't tell if I'm really misstating the case against Michigan or am I on some kind of moral island by myself.

Putting aside the kids actions for a second,

Is it really wrong to say that Michigan misleads applicants in the scholarship process when they say they "don't compete"" Looking through this very thread, there are multiple reports of people hearing from Michigan that they will "negotiate based on other offers, but only this once."

Think about the story told by Dean Z. to begin with. Why would they even waste their breath advising "to email the office with the information about the other awards." If you don't make counter offers, what's the point in asking to see the other offers? Why not just tell him to GTFO to Virginia or whatever.

Honestly, I kind of don't even want to discuss this because, for the first time in my life, I'm actually worried that I could actually face retaliation for discussing something critical of someone.

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cc78
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby cc78 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:56 am

I definitely understand where you're coming from skool, but looks to me like Michigan is playing that game of parsing meaning in the way only a place run by lawyers could.

Of course Michigan doesn't "compete" with other offers, they merely "consider individual circumstance" at select times during the admissions cycle. They can argue that the extent to which a person wants their individual circumstances considered is up to the applicant. Individual circumstance seems to connote situations that are not typical for your usual law school applicant, while competing scholarship offers could happen with anyone. At the end of the day, it has to have a chilling effect on the willingness of some folks to negotiate. I wonder if that just results in those kids heading to other schools or kids enrolling at Michigan paying more than they would have otherwise had to.

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Winston1984
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Winston1984 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:58 am

Skool wrote:
Dipper wrote:
How does this compare at all to Michigan considering certain individuals' circumstances in determining whether or not to adjust a student's scholarship?
Obviously it depends on what it means to "consider certain individuals' circumstances". Is the individual circumstance I have a 180 and a 4.0 1/2 scholarship from elsewhere vs. I have a 170 and a 3.8 1/4 scholarship from elsewhere? If those are the only differences in individual circumstances and the 180's "circumstance" gets a better deal... that's just negotiating with the person who has more bargaining power and telling the other guy to GTFO with his broke ass, not giving special consideration to the fact that he just had to pay out of pocket for a hip replacement, or something.

And if this is what it means to take into account "individual circumstance", and we have a scenario where two people are "similarly situated" but only one has the gumption to ask (the other having been discouraged from asking by Michigan's statements that they don't negotiate, Michigan's discouragement would appear to be misleading, no?

Again, it's a question of what it means to "consider individual circumstances." If Michigan is quietly negotiating with competitive candidates with the gumption to ask (and irl I know someone who last cycle reported negotiating between Michigan and Georgetown with no special circumstance I could discern), it seems the tinsyist bit misleading with the purpose of limiting negotiation.

You see it differently?

I think you misunderstood Dipper's question.

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Skool
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Skool » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:08 am

I understand the question to be asking: how is Michigan's approach to scholarships ("considering certain individuals' circumstances") comparable to the lying applicant's
approach.


My answer: it isn't clear how "considering certain individuals circumstances" is substantively different from only negotiating with people with competitive bargaining positions. In short: their special consideration seems like its just negotiation.

Making applicants think that negotiation is really something you should only try in special individual circumstances is potentially misleading (having a chilling effect on some people's willingness to negotiate for a deal within their reach, to borrow CC's term) and tilts the board even more in the school's favor.

Thus, the Dean and the Kid's approaches compare by both being misleading in the context of scholarship negotiation, which is apparently an LSAC conduct violation.

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Dipper
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Dipper » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:34 am

Skool wrote:I understand the question to be asking: how is Michigan's approach to scholarships ("considering certain individuals' circumstances") comparable to the lying applicant's
approach.


My answer: it isn't clear how "considering certain individuals circumstances" is substantively different from only negotiating with people with competitive bargaining positions. In short: their special consideration seems like its just negotiation.

Making applicants think that negotiation is really something you should only try in special individual circumstances is potentially misleading (having a chilling effect on some people's willingness to negotiate for a deal within their reach, to borrow CC's term) and tilts the board even more in the school's favor.

Thus, the Dean and the Kid's approaches compare by both being misleading in the context of scholarship negotiation, which is apparently an LSAC conduct violation.


Ah, here we have to distinguish between something that may be "misleading" and something that is outright "providing false information." I think that distinction is pretty clear.

Additionally, from the UMich FAQ: "While the University of Michigan Law School devotes many of its financial aid funds to applicants who have demonstrated financial need, we also offer merit awards. The Admissions Office administers our two merit aid programs: Darrow Scholarships, which cover as much as full tuition plus a stipend, are awarded to a handful of exceptional students in each entering class selected by the faculty in reflection of the recipient's outstanding scholastic achievements, as well as the sense that they will one day go on to a remarkable career; we also offer Dean's Scholarships, which vary in size, and are offered to those whose academic achievements and demonstrated leadership promise significant contributions to both the Law School and the legal profession. All admitted applicants will be considered for merit-based aid, and no separate application is required. If you have additional questions about merit aid, please contact the Admissions Office... In cases where no merit aid has been offered, the Financial Aid Office is occasionally able to take financial aid offers from competing schools into account."

I don't know when/if the policy changed from when the initial blog post was written, but I think this FAQ establishes that an individual can still negotiate.




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