Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

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annet
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby annet » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:24 pm

Re-posting this answer here since I'm not sure everyone else is reading Dean Perez's original thread (though you should be).

SPerez wrote:
ewoods wrote:Does Tech ever negotiate scholarship amounts or stipulations? I have some offers from other Texas schools and was wondering if I could at least get that pesky top 50% stipulation removed.


wert3813 is right that I'm not going to discuss the specifics of any individual student on here. Call my office or email me if you want to do that.

I will, however, broadly address the topic.

First, I will say that I abhor the term "negotiate" when it comes to scholarships. Call me idealistic, but I'd like to think that choosing a law school is not on the same level as buying a car in the minds of most students. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that students shouldn't aggressively yet ethically pursue the best options for themselves, taking into account overall quality, cost, employment prospects, etc. I just feel that education, even professional school, is not a "product" in that sense and using terms like "negotiate" and "sticker" can create the idea that it is.

So, I don't "negotiate". I will re-evaluate based on new information, e.g. updated GPA, LSAT score, or a competitive offer from another school. The amount of available funds at the time also plays a factor. It is not a back-and-forth process with me, though. I do what I can. I never change stipulations. In my opinion, it's not fair to other scholarship recipients. Our scholarships are still merit based (broadly defined) so if I am able to increase an award, it is still because I believe the strength of the file warrants it and there's no reason that person shouldn't be held to the same performance expectation as the person with about the same scholarship sitting next to them. The way I look at it, if I'm giving a full ride to a 170/4.0 I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that they live up to their potential in law school. Other schools do things differently, of course.

Our stipulations are about as generous as they get short of none at all (i.e. simply good standing). Last year's scholarships required top half standing. This year I decided to try something a little different, with small scholarships requiring only good standing and the larger ones still requiring top half. We'll see how it works. I think top half is high enough to keep people motivated, but not so high that someone will be hosed if they take a semester or two to figure out law school.


SPerez wrote:
wert3813 wrote:Can you give us a frank assessment of negotiation from the other side? Lots of Deans like to pretend they don't negotiate but it seems to happen quite a bit. What goes into your assessment of whether to beat, match, or let your offer stand?


There are no absolutes. So a dean may have a policy of not negotiating and 99% of the time it holds. That number not being 100% doesn't mean the person is "pretending". There are all sorts of reasons I won't get into as to why exceptions might be made. At the same time, I don't think it's hard to understand how any school would be hesitant to proclaim "We Negotiate!". That would create an administrative nightmare and make it incredibly hard to manage a scholarship budget when 100% of your class tries to "get a deal".

Personally, I don't enjoy it. It would make everyone's life easier if we (law schools) just gave our best offer and students simply made a decision. I wish I could give everyone a huge scholarship, but I can't. So every dollar I increase someone means I have one less dollar to give someone else. I bet at many schools the practice doesn't actually end up in a better class, only in the school spending more money on the class it would have had anyway.

I approach my decision as if I were the student asking. I ask for the letter from the other school (notice that's singular) and I engage the student in a discussion about what it is they're looking for in a law school. With that information, I think about what it would take for me to choose Texas Tech if I had the same options. I don't want to lose a great student if I can help it so I will do what I can. At some point, though, students have to make a decision. Fish or cut bait. #*&% or get off the pot. :) And hey, sometimes the best decision for a student isn't Texas Tech even if I can offer a full-ride. I get that.

It's becoming so pervasive now, and that's not fun. It's usually pretty clear when someone just wants to use my offer to take back to their real 1st choice.

Also, please know how to do simple math. I had one student repeatedly come back to me for increases even though the other school she said she was considering was MORE expensive than we were even with their scholarship.

I want students that want to be here and are serious about their intention to come. Every year there are a handful of students who say they want to practice in Texas, but who I lose to out-of-state schools who wooed with large scholarships and the big city. And I just shake my head and wish them luck because, even if those schools are a little cheaper or slightly higher ranked, it's usually going to be much harder for them to find work, contacts back in Texas than it would have been had they come here (or anywhere else in Texas for that matter).

And since this post passed TL;DNR status a LONG time ago I will add a small request: Please write your request yourself. I've gotten up to three requests in a 2-day period that were almost identical. That tells me that you either don't actually care about coming to Tech and probably sent the same email to every other school, which doesn't make me all that inclined to do anything for you.

OK, if I were at home in my sweats I'd keep going, but I've been at work all day so I'm headed home. I left a lot on the table up there. Feel free to ask follow-up questions, and please remember that these are just my opinions jotted down as I wind down from reviewing files. I haven't gone over this like it was a law review article for submission so if I need to clarify or explain something I said a bit more, I will do so.

liupang
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby liupang » Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:11 am

Quick question: when mention your "substantial scholarship from other schools", do you just mention the number , or you enclose a PDF of acceptance package to prove it? Would the attachment of acceptance package from another school breaks the code of Confidentiality Statement?

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sublime
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby sublime » Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:26 am

..

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annet
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby annet » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:36 am

liupang wrote:Quick question: when mention your "substantial scholarship from other schools", do you just mention the number , or you enclose a PDF of acceptance package to prove it? Would the attachment of acceptance package from another school breaks the code of Confidentiality Statement?


There isn't a hard and fast rule. I mentioned the general offer "full ride" and then highlighted what I had calculated the difference between the two offers to be ("just over $30,000"). I didn't attach a pdf but I was ready to if it was requested.

As sublime said, don't worry about the confidentiality statement.

jackbauer10
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby jackbauer10 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:13 pm

wamanda wrote:Since schools are often painfully aware of being lower than others in rank, you generally don't need to do anything beyond informing them of the offer. Just email them, explain the offer as a new development that is making your decision more difficult, and politely inquire whether it would be possible to increase your merit aid. When I was negotiating between UCLA (offering $120K) and Michigan (offering $60K), I discussed the specific differences I perceived between the schools without directly mentioning rank. For instance, I mentioned that I was concerned that Michigan might give me more national reach, which is important to me, since I am not sure where I want to practice. I also mentioned Michigan's superior LRAP. You can throw in little details like that to make your request stronger, but for many schools, it may already be obvious that they need to throw more aid your way to justify the difference in rank.


I know this is many pages back, but has anyone been successful with Michigan on this?

Franciscus
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Franciscus » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:53 pm

I need some advice: I plan to negotiate with a lower T-14 that isn't offering me any scholarship money. I have a $60k scholarship from a lower T-20 and a $120k scholarship from a lower T-30. Which offer would be best to use when I attempt to negotiate?

On the one hand, I feel the T-20, being a lot closer in rank, might force them to respond with something. My only reservation is that it is only half the amount of my other scholarship. I'm going into this expecting the lower t-14, at best, to give me a fraction of the scholarship I send them. That is why, on the other hand, I feel that using the $120k scholly could result in a higher offer than if I used the $60k offer since the difference is much greater. I could use both but I'm trying to maximize the amount I receive and I feel the 60K offer limits what I could be offered. Thoughts?

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TripTrip
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby TripTrip » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:03 pm

Franciscus wrote:I need some advice: I plan to negotiate with a lower T-14 that isn't offering me any scholarship money. I have a $60k scholarship from a lower T-20 and a $120k scholarship from a lower T-30. Which offer would be best to use when I attempt to negotiate?

On the one hand, I feel the T-20, being a lot closer in rank, might force them to respond with something. My only reservation is that it is only half the amount of my other scholarship. I'm going into this expecting the lower t-14, at best, to give me a fraction of the scholarship I send them. That is why, on the other hand, I feel that using the $120k scholly could result in a higher offer than if I used the $60k offer since the difference is much greater. I could use both but I'm trying to maximize the amount I receive and I feel the 60K offer limits what I could be offered. Thoughts?

That looks like it could be a stretch, but it's hard to tell without naming the schools.

Franciscus
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Franciscus » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:12 pm

TripTrip wrote:
Franciscus wrote:I need some advice: I plan to negotiate with a lower T-14 that isn't offering me any scholarship money. I have a $60k scholarship from a lower T-20 and a $120k scholarship from a lower T-30. Which offer would be best to use when I attempt to negotiate?

On the one hand, I feel the T-20, being a lot closer in rank, might force them to respond with something. My only reservation is that it is only half the amount of my other scholarship. I'm going into this expecting the lower t-14, at best, to give me a fraction of the scholarship I send them. That is why, on the other hand, I feel that using the $120k scholly could result in a higher offer than if I used the $60k offer since the difference is much greater. I could use both but I'm trying to maximize the amount I receive and I feel the 60K offer limits what I could be offered. Thoughts?

That looks like it could be a stretch, but it's hard to tell without naming the schools.


PM'd

shntn
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby shntn » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:12 pm

sublime wrote:And I wouldn't worry about the confidentiality statement.

Now that's what I call lawyerin'!

efin12
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby efin12 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:45 am

So if I don't deposit at UVa on Friday, does that mean I can't use my scholarship offer from there in negotiating with other schools? Columbia doesn't send out financial aid packages until after UVa's deadline (I suspect on purpose), so does that mean I lose it as a bargaining chip? Or is there no way Columbia cares about my UVa scholarship, so I shouldn't worry about it at all?

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby DoveBodyWash » Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:46 am

efin12 wrote:So if I don't deposit at UVa on Friday, does that mean I can't use my scholarship offer from there in negotiating with other schools? Columbia doesn't send out financial aid packages until after UVa's deadline (I suspect on purpose), so does that mean I lose it as a bargaining chip? Or is there no way Columbia cares about my UVa scholarship, so I shouldn't worry about it at all?


If you don't deposit you lose that bargaining chip. Whether or not Columbia cares about your UVA offer will depend on how much UVA gave you and what your numbers are

efin12
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby efin12 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:06 am

cusenation wrote:
efin12 wrote:So if I don't deposit at UVa on Friday, does that mean I can't use my scholarship offer from there in negotiating with other schools? Columbia doesn't send out financial aid packages until after UVa's deadline (I suspect on purpose), so does that mean I lose it as a bargaining chip? Or is there no way Columbia cares about my UVa scholarship, so I shouldn't worry about it at all?


If you don't deposit you lose that bargaining chip. Whether or not Columbia cares about your UVA offer will depend on how much UVA gave you and what your numbers are


I received $75k from UVa (numbers in profile). Is it worth the $500 for a small chance to bargain? I received exactly $0 from NYU, so I know my chances are slim.

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby DoveBodyWash » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:09 am

efin12 wrote:
cusenation wrote:
efin12 wrote:So if I don't deposit at UVa on Friday, does that mean I can't use my scholarship offer from there in negotiating with other schools? Columbia doesn't send out financial aid packages until after UVa's deadline (I suspect on purpose), so does that mean I lose it as a bargaining chip? Or is there no way Columbia cares about my UVa scholarship, so I shouldn't worry about it at all?


If you don't deposit you lose that bargaining chip. Whether or not Columbia cares about your UVA offer will depend on how much UVA gave you and what your numbers are


I received $75k from UVa (numbers in profile). Is it worth the $500 for a small chance to bargain? I received exactly $0 from NYU, so I know my chances are slim.


I'd actually be surprised if NYU/Columbia didn't end up giving you some money after the deadline...isn't 173 right around their median? I know they're popular schools but there isn't exactly a surplus of 173's right now...Personally i think it could be worth it. Is the UVA offer set in stone? You could try upping their offer using your Columbia/NYU admit, and then use an improved UVA offer to go back to Columbia/NYU.

GertrudeR
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby GertrudeR » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:16 am

I just sent NYU my appeal to try to up my 62,500 using an offer of 120,000 from Duke and the fact that I'm broke. I know others have been unsuccessful negotiating with lower ranked T-14s at NYU but figured it was worth a shot. I'll let ya'll know what happens.

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elterrible78
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby elterrible78 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:20 am

GertrudeR wrote:I just sent NYU my appeal to try to up my 62,500 using an offer of 120,000 from Duke and the fact that I'm broke. I know others have been unsuccessful negotiating with lower ranked T-14s at NYU but figured it was worth a shot. I'll let ya'll know what happens.


Good luck to you! I tried negotiating my $87,500 with full rides from Michigan, UVA, and $120k from Chicago, and they wouldn't move. Hope it works out better for you than it did me!

efin12
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby efin12 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:21 am

cusenation wrote:
efin12 wrote:
cusenation wrote:
efin12 wrote:So if I don't deposit at UVa on Friday, does that mean I can't use my scholarship offer from there in negotiating with other schools? Columbia doesn't send out financial aid packages until after UVa's deadline (I suspect on purpose), so does that mean I lose it as a bargaining chip? Or is there no way Columbia cares about my UVa scholarship, so I shouldn't worry about it at all?


If you don't deposit you lose that bargaining chip. Whether or not Columbia cares about your UVA offer will depend on how much UVA gave you and what your numbers are


I received $75k from UVa (numbers in profile). Is it worth the $500 for a small chance to bargain? I received exactly $0 from NYU, so I know my chances are slim.


I'd actually be surprised if NYU/Columbia didn't end up giving you some money after the deadline...isn't 173 right around their median? I know they're popular schools but there isn't exactly a surplus of 173's right now...Personally i think it could be worth it. Is the UVA offer set in stone? You could try upping their offer using your Columbia/NYU admit, and then use an improved UVA offer to go back to Columbia/NYU.


It's just above both their medians, but I'm in that awkward place where my parents have money but aren't paying for my law school. UVa isn't reconsidering merit aid offers until after the first deposit deadline. I suppose I could deposit and then renegotiate with UVa and then try to use that for Columbia, but it seems like a long shot and $500 is so much money to me at the moment. I guess I'm just getting nervous about letting my first deposit deadline pass. I don't want to throw the money away if there's not some chance at getting aid from Columbia out of it. I didn't apply to Chicago and I can't pay Penn to make a decision on my application, so UVa really is my only bargaining chip at the moment.

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annet
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby annet » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:23 am

Big Dog wrote:why not play their game? Request an extension of the deposit deadline.

Simple.


Hat tip here since this had genuinely not occurred to me until Big Dog suggested it a few pages back. Don't be afraid to ask for extensions. You cannot make a decision with incomplete information. And the schools that have accepted you with money clearly want you there so they're the most likely to play ball and keep the chance of you attending open.

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby DoveBodyWash » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:24 am

annet wrote:
Big Dog wrote:why not play their game? Request an extension of the deposit deadline.

Simple.


Hat tip here since this had genuinely not occurred to me until Big Dog suggested it a few pages back. Don't be afraid to ask for extensions. You cannot make a decision with incomplete information. And the schools that have accepted you with money clearly want you there so they're the most likely to play ball and keep the chance of you attending open.


+1
Forgot abt this

GertrudeR
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby GertrudeR » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:25 am

elterrible78 wrote:
GertrudeR wrote:I just sent NYU my appeal to try to up my 62,500 using an offer of 120,000 from Duke and the fact that I'm broke. I know others have been unsuccessful negotiating with lower ranked T-14s at NYU but figured it was worth a shot. I'll let ya'll know what happens.


Good luck to you! I tried negotiating my $87,500 with full rides from Michigan, UVA, and $120k from Chicago, and they wouldn't move. Hope it works out better for you than it did me!


Well fuck. :|

efin12
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby efin12 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:31 am

annet wrote:
Big Dog wrote:why not play their game? Request an extension of the deposit deadline.

Simple.


Hat tip here since this had genuinely not occurred to me until Big Dog suggested it a few pages back. Don't be afraid to ask for extensions. You cannot make a decision with incomplete information. And the schools that have accepted you with money clearly want you there so they're the most likely to play ball and keep the chance of you attending open.


I think I saw on another UVa thread that someone requested an extension and was denied. I think they even repeat that they can't extend the deadline "out of fairness to other students" several times in emails and on the website. What about out of fairness to me?!

shedl001
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby shedl001 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:54 pm

Anyone have advice on what to do when you have asked for more money and they offer you a seat deposit extension. I really want to attend this school, however i really need more money.

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deuceindc
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby deuceindc » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:00 pm

shedl001 wrote:Anyone have advice on what to do when you have asked for more money and they offer you a seat deposit extension. I really want to attend this school, however i really need more money.


Use another school's offer against them. If you don't have one, offer to deposit now in exchange for $X. They offered you a seat extension so they likely care about keeping you interested.

shedl001
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby shedl001 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:07 pm

deuceindc wrote:
shedl001 wrote:Anyone have advice on what to do when you have asked for more money and they offer you a seat deposit extension. I really want to attend this school, however i really need more money.


Use another school's offer against them. If you don't have one, offer to deposit now in exchange for $X. They offered you a seat extension so they likely care about keeping you interested.


what are the repercussions of doing this??

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deuceindc
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby deuceindc » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:38 pm

shedl001 wrote:
deuceindc wrote:
shedl001 wrote:Anyone have advice on what to do when you have asked for more money and they offer you a seat deposit extension. I really want to attend this school, however i really need more money.


Use another school's offer against them. If you don't have one, offer to deposit now in exchange for $X. They offered you a seat extension so they likely care about keeping you interested.


what are the repercussions of doing this??


If they give you the money you want, you owe them a deposit. If they don't, you don't owe them anything.

JesusChrist
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby JesusChrist » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:57 pm

So I tried my hands at negotiating and got a decent bump, but then again, my negotiation email might have been irrelevant to my bump. Anyways, I have no offer that comes even close to what WUSTL gave me. I didn't bother applying to many safety schools, and the 2 that I applied to decided they wanted to WL me. So I have no other offers. How do you think I should go about asking for a 3rd consideration? If at all, I do sorta feel bad about asking again. Especially since I feel like I'm getting the market rate, given my GPA. Maybe even above market-rate since my GPA is below the 25th percentile.




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