Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

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upandup
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby upandup » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:23 pm

whsy wrote:
upandup wrote:So if I have two equally ranked schools in the same area with the same two deposit deadlines and similar though not identical awards, is there really any reason why I shouldn't put down two deposits (assuming I have the cash for both)?


You can put down multiple deposits. Not sure why you'd put down two deposits though, in your case, are you negotiating or still deciding between the two schoosl?


Trying to negotiate between the two..if more money supposedly opens up after some of the first deposit deadlines, wouldn't you think the extra $500 would be worth it for six more weeks? Especially if the two schools are already aware of each other's offers (they're not yet, but they will be within the next week)?

bigdog9
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby bigdog9 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:28 pm

I'm somewhat unclear about how much deposit info schools share w/ one another. Suppose you have a fat scholarship from school A, but for certain reasons you are sure you want to attend similarly ranked school B that hasn't offered one. Once you let the deadline for the seat deposit from school A pass, is your negotiating power gone? I mean, how can I say, "well they offered me this much more, but even though I didn't deposit, please still give me $." I know I want to go to school B, but they have made it clear that more $ will be distributed AFTER their seat deposit deadine, which is after seat deposit deadline from school A. Depositing $200 just for a stronger bluff hand seems bizarre, but if they KNOW I haven't deposited elsewhere, I have no hand to play at all. It seems crazy that only if I'm truly undecided can I get more $. Or do they just wait until may 15 or do we just not know?

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alwayssunnyinfl
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby alwayssunnyinfl » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:30 pm

bigdog9 wrote:I'm somewhat unclear about how much deposit info schools share w/ one another. Suppose you have a fat scholarship from school A, but for certain reasons you are sure you want to attend similarly ranked school B that hasn't offered one. Once you let the deadline for the seat deposit from school A pass, is your negotiating power gone? I mean, how can I say, "well they offered me this much more, but even though I didn't deposit, please still give me $." I know I want to go to school B, but they have made it clear that more $ will be distributed AFTER their seat deposit deadine, which is after seat deposit deadline from school A. Depositing $200 just for a stronger bluff hand seems bizarre, but if they KNOW I haven't deposited elsewhere, I have no hand to play at all. It seems crazy that only if I'm truly undecided can I get more $. Or do they just wait until may 15 or do we just not know?


If you want to use school A to negotiate more money out of them, you had better make sure that that offer is still on the table. You're not in a good place if school A's deadline passes, you send a new email to school B referencing school A's offer, and school B calls school A to verify.

wannabelawstudent
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby wannabelawstudent » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:50 am

bigdog9 wrote:I'm somewhat unclear about how much deposit info schools share w/ one another. Suppose you have a fat scholarship from school A, but for certain reasons you are sure you want to attend similarly ranked school B that hasn't offered one. Once you let the deadline for the seat deposit from school A pass, is your negotiating power gone? I mean, how can I say, "well they offered me this much more, but even though I didn't deposit, please still give me $." I know I want to go to school B, but they have made it clear that more $ will be distributed AFTER their seat deposit deadine, which is after seat deposit deadline from school A. Depositing $200 just for a stronger bluff hand seems bizarre, but if they KNOW I haven't deposited elsewhere, I have no hand to play at all. It seems crazy that only if I'm truly undecided can I get more $. Or do they just wait until may 15 or do we just not know?



http://www.lsac.org/jd/apply/whom-to-admit.asp

"LSAC provides participating law schools with periodic reports fetailing the number of applicants who have submitted seat deposits or commitments at other participating schools, along with identification of those other schools. Beginning May 15 each year, these reports now also include the names and LSAC account numbers for all candidates who have deposits/commitments at multiple participating schools."

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alwayssunnyinfl
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby alwayssunnyinfl » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:05 am

wannabelawstudent wrote:
http://www.lsac.org/jd/apply/whom-to-admit.asp

"LSAC provides participating law schools with periodic reports fetailing the number of applicants who have submitted seat deposits or commitments at other participating schools, along with identification of those other schools. Beginning May 15 each year, these reports now also include the names and LSAC account numbers for all candidates who have deposits/commitments at multiple participating schools."


I also like this bit:

Except under binding early decision plans, or for academic terms beginning in the spring or summer, no law school should require an enrollment commitment of any kind, to an offer of admission or scholarship prior to April 1. Admitted applicants who have submitted a timely financial aid application should not be required to commit to enroll by having to make a nonrefundable financial commitment until notified of financial aid awards that are within the control of the law school.


It seems like a lot of schools are going to be bending that rule this cycle.

wannabelawstudent
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby wannabelawstudent » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:14 am

That's just the "LSAC Statement of Good Admissions and Financial Aid Practices" it's more like a guideline than a rule. :(

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sublime
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby sublime » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:24 am

..

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annet
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby annet » Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:24 am

bigdog9 wrote:I'm somewhat unclear about how much deposit info schools share w/ one another. Suppose you have a fat scholarship from school A, but for certain reasons you are sure you want to attend similarly ranked school B that hasn't offered one. Once you let the deadline for the seat deposit from school A pass, is your negotiating power gone? I mean, how can I say, "well they offered me this much more, but even though I didn't deposit, please still give me $." I know I want to go to school B, but they have made it clear that more $ will be distributed AFTER their seat deposit deadine, which is after seat deposit deadline from school A. Depositing $200 just for a stronger bluff hand seems bizarre, but if they KNOW I haven't deposited elsewhere, I have no hand to play at all. It seems crazy that only if I'm truly undecided can I get more $. Or do they just wait until may 15 or do we just not know?


You don't necessarily have to bluff, it never hurts to just ask. Be honest. Email both schools and ask for extensions for your particular deposit deadline. Explain that you're having a very hard time deciding and that you are still struggling with how you are going to finance your legal education. Once the official deposit deadline for school B passes, ask them for a decision based on the extension school A gave you. Explain that you really want to attend school B but school A has not only offered you money but been kind enough to give you another week to decide, the only thing that will change your mind is a workable offer from school B, so could they please re-review your file.

The worst School A can say is no, in which case you may want to just eat the $200 because the leverage could be worth thousands of dollars for school B.

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deuceindc
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby deuceindc » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:25 am

alwayssunnyinfl wrote: You're not in a good place if school A's deadline passes, you send a new email to school B referencing school A's offer, and school B calls school A to verify.


Obviously a lot of the Admissions people know each other, but isn't that some sort of privacy violation? I can see them calling each other if, for example, they see you're deposited at 2+ schools and you're telling them that you're definitely coming in the fall. But to call another school and ask "Hey, is this offer still on the table?" seems over the line.

Regardless, they can see who has multiple deposits after a certain point (May 15, I think), so if you're only deposited there and trying to do this, they'll know you're full of shit. If they just stall you until 5/15, you're done.

In any case, you definitely don't want to get caught doing something like the above, there's a huge risk of getting reported to LSAC for misconduct.

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alwayssunnyinfl
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby alwayssunnyinfl » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:04 pm

deuceindc wrote:
alwayssunnyinfl wrote: You're not in a good place if school A's deadline passes, you send a new email to school B referencing school A's offer, and school B calls school A to verify.

Obviously a lot of the Admissions people know each other, but isn't that some sort of privacy violation? I can see them calling each other if, for example, they see you're deposited at 2+ schools and you're telling them that you're definitely coming in the fall. But to call another school and ask "Hey, is this offer still on the table?" seems over the line.


No, but if you say to one school "I'm being offered an excellent scholarship at this other school" AFTER the deposit deadline has passed and you know for a fact that that offer is no longer on the table, you have lied. I don't remember the specifics, but there is at least one story on the boards somewhere here where someone just flat out lied and said they had a huge scholarship package from a school (I think it was somewhere in the Midwest, Michigan or Notre Dame or something.) The school they were negotiating with got suspicious and contacted the other school's admissions office.

shntn
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby shntn » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:06 pm

alwayssunnyinfl wrote:
deuceindc wrote:
alwayssunnyinfl wrote: You're not in a good place if school A's deadline passes, you send a new email to school B referencing school A's offer, and school B calls school A to verify.

Obviously a lot of the Admissions people know each other, but isn't that some sort of privacy violation? I can see them calling each other if, for example, they see you're deposited at 2+ schools and you're telling them that you're definitely coming in the fall. But to call another school and ask "Hey, is this offer still on the table?" seems over the line.


No, but if you say to one school "I'm being offered an excellent scholarship at this other school" AFTER the deposit deadline has passed and you know for a fact that that offer is no longer on the table, you have lied. I don't remember the specifics, but there is at least one story on the boards somewhere here where someone just flat out lied and said they had a huge scholarship package from a school (I think it was somewhere in the Midwest, Michigan or Notre Dame or something.) The school they were negotiating with got suspicious and contacted the other school's admissions office.

Which is why I haven't withdrawn from anywhere yet.

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letsjustsee
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby letsjustsee » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:12 pm

.
Last edited by letsjustsee on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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alwayssunnyinfl
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby alwayssunnyinfl » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:17 pm

letsjustsee wrote:It was Michigan. Dean Zearfoss didn't reveal what school the applicant claimed to have a scholarship from, but it threw up red flags so she contacted the dean at the other law school. When the other dean confirmed it was a bluff, Dean Z reported the violation to LSAC. I don't have time to look up the link, but Dean Z wrote about it on her blog.

Thank you for helping me remember.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby NoodleyOne » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:32 pm

So some advice:

My target school offered me the largest scholly of any other school I got into. More than the ones I got schollys from below it, and the one above it hasn't gotten back to me with scholly offer yet. I get the feeling that means I have no leg to stand on as far as negotiations go. What should I do?

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annet
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby annet » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:21 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:So some advice:

My target school offered me the largest scholly of any other school I got into. More than the ones I got schollys from below it, and the one above it hasn't gotten back to me with scholly offer yet. I get the feeling that means I have no leg to stand on as far as negotiations go. What should I do?


Have you negotiated at all yet with any of the schools?

Your leverage is you showing up and being in their class. I'm pretty sure you will single handed make a school's 75% LSAT median.

I'd email the three schools where you've gotten money so far and explain that you're having a very hard time with the debt picture. Ask them what the chance for additional money is and what the schedule for getting notified will be. If you get a solid date from any of them use that to ask for seat deposit extensions at all of them. Hopefully this will give the highest ranked school time to give you some money, and then that offer can be used in another round of emails. I think for you time will help with leverage, if you can get extensions suddenly you'll be the highest LSAT score on the dean's desk in late April when they are really starting to sweat next year's medians.

csexton182
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby csexton182 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:38 pm

You guys think I'm justified for sending a e-mail asking if they have received my first one with my scholarship negotiation letter? I sent it on March 18th, and havent heard a thing since. I dont want to annoy them, but deposit deadlines for some schools are on monday. Any input would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Username123
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby Username123 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:51 pm

csexton182 wrote:You guys think I'm justified for sending a e-mail asking if they have received my first one with my scholarship negotiation letter? I sent it on March 18th, and havent heard a thing since. I dont want to annoy them, but deposit deadlines for some schools are on monday. Any input would be much appreciated.

Thanks.


Yeah of course you're justified. This is your life, not their's. Who cares if you annoy them.

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annet
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby annet » Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:42 pm

csexton182 wrote:You guys think I'm justified for sending a e-mail asking if they have received my first one with my scholarship negotiation letter? I sent it on March 18th, and havent heard a thing since. I dont want to annoy them, but deposit deadlines for some schools are on monday. Any input would be much appreciated.

Thanks.


Yup, just politely mention your (very good and valid) reason for emailing again.

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TripTrip
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby TripTrip » Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:54 pm

Real good article from Johann at NU today: --LinkRemoved--

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annet
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby annet » Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:02 pm

I love that this was posted. It's awesome information for applicants. But it needs dissecting, especially for those of us who are not T14 bound.

First, let's highlight what Dean Lee did NOT say. He did not say that if you try to negotiate your scholarship that he would laugh at you and take away your acceptance. From the tone of so many posts here I feel like it's important to keep reiterating this. Unless you lie to the school, attempting to negotiate your financial aid package will never, ever, ever result in your offer being rescinded.

The scholarship process as of right now and re-opening the award process.

The bulk of our scholarship offers were released this past week. We are also continuing to fully consider all admits (regular/hold/waitlist) for aid, providing all the deadlines are met.

The release of offers also brings another rite of the admissions process, "scholarship negotiations."

A big problem with these "negotiations" is that they are usually approached from the wrong perspective. Last year, we received about 255 aid appeals. A majority of these appeals were written identically, as if there was a template out on the Internet. If you do decide to walk down this road, here are my tips so that your request will be reviewed in the best possible light.

On the one hand, it's hard to make a 5-7 sentence email really stand out. On the other hand, this comment shows that it's certainly worth your time to try. Mention specific attributes of the school you're interested in. And do not copy-and-paste the sample letters from the content competition thread. Srsly.

YMMV- these tips are my opinion for NU only:

What this means for us is that these tips are from a Dean who can make a reasonable case for the sticker price of his school while keeping a straight face.

1. Don't call it a "scholarship negotiation"?

We are not a dealership and I'm not going to comp mudflaps. If you wish for us to "re-examine your financial aid package" or you wish to "appeal your financial aid package," we are open to taking that request. It may just be semantics, but it goes a long way.

This is very true. We can call it negotiating but in all of your conversations with schools it should be strictly "availability of additional merit aid," "re-examining your financial aid package," or something involving your personal ability to attend the school in question. Silly? Maybe. But Deans control the negotiation and they do not want to be treated like car salesmen. Legit at the NU level, dubious laTTTer down the list.

2. Chicago can be expensive
3. Your tuition is expensive
4. Your cost of living is so high

I know how much it costs to live in Chicago. I know what our tuition will be next year. I also know how much it costs to live in a "college town" versus a city. Understood, I get it. This is low hanging fruit with very minimal persuasive value. No need to write about it.

We'll ignore 2 and 4. But 3 is the single biggest factor for the negotiating student.

Tuition at almost every school is so high that it will result in student loan debt that is not serviceable at the employment outcomes probable for the average student. I consider it quite polite that incoming students haven't taken to explicitly mentioning the 50/50 shot at a JD required job or the non-existent possibility of big law offered by most schools. I think "I've seen your NALP report and your tuition is a scam, let's talk about how we can adjust this aid package so I don't ruin my life" might not be the best opener, but it is true for most schools.

Ability to service law school debt is the only thing you should be thinking about in negotiations. And that means paying as little as possible. Period. If you're here on TLS you already know all of this so I'll restate briefly. If you have decided that you want to be a lawyer (in order to practice law, no boomer versatility shit here) you need to do everything in your power to leverage your numbers to pay as little as possible for law school. Until law schools stop thinking that they are special academic snowflakes rather than trade schools (and lower tuition accordingly), cost should be the most important factor in your application cycle.

Unless you get a full-ride offer right out of the gate, you will need to negotiate with the schools that admit you.

5. All offers not created equal

It is very tempting to send us all your awards. If you decide to send an award, it should be the "best" award. The one you are most likely to accept. At max, send 2 awards for our consideration.

This is fair and I think all of the advice in this thread reflects this position. Only try to leverage awards from peer schools. You can, however, use the seat deposit dates of lower-ranked schools to which you have applied to ask for more time to make your decision. I'd like to see LSAC demand that schools standardize seat deposit dates and scholarship award notification timelines for on-time applicants. But, as it stands, schools have different dates and you should not be expected to make a decision with incomplete information.

6. Is there is a personal reason for attending NU

Significant other, specific education opportunity, special relatives, something I can't even conceive?

I'm having a hard time imagining a cycle where this hasn't been brought up earlier in the process but feel free to reiterate your reasons during the negotiation process.

7. Only engage us if you are very serious about attending.

I can't stress this enough. No appeal will be dismissed pro forma. However, I want people who want to be at Northwestern. Please don't use this as a phishing expedition.

This is where Dean Lee and I have differing opinions. He's wrong and I'm right. Ignore number 7. You've paid an application fee (or not) and jumped through some serious hoops to get to the point of negotiating scholarships. Email everyone. Email them twice! How clogged up a Dean's inbox looks in the morning is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. Phish away my friends. I don't recommend lying about your intentions (don't use the phrases 'first choice' or 'will attend if' unless you mean them), but you are absolutely entitled to ask for anything you want. And Deans are entitled to shoot you a standard response of 'no' back. Number 7 is pure snark that Dean Lee can get away with because NU is a T14 school.

There's always a chance that a school you're less than enthused about attending will answer your email and give you a solid scholarship increase. This is now great leverage to go and ask a school you want to attend for more money. You're negotiating and this is how it works. You're not stealing money from anyone or doing anything unscrupulous (but seriously, don't lie to schools).

8. Chances of success

Earlier, I mentioned the 255 recorded appeals last year. Of those appeals, only 15% were successful. Those who were not initially receiving an award were successful 17% of the time. Those already receiving an award were successful 8% of the time.

Using the ABA data on LSAC Northwestern offered admission to 864 people. It's mind-boggling that only around 30% of them tried to negotiate. Clearly TLS has work to do.

AnaMariana42
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby AnaMariana42 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:59 pm

Would anybody be willing to look at the email I'm drafting re: negotiating my scholarship from Duke?

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby DoveBodyWash » Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:03 pm

AnaMariana42 wrote:Would anybody be willing to look at the email I'm drafting re: negotiating my scholarship from Duke?


sure PM it over

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby NoodleyOne » Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:13 pm

How about for me?

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby DoveBodyWash » Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:17 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:How about for me?


my inbox is always open lol

wannabelawstudent
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Re: Negotiating scholarships works!!!!!

Postby wannabelawstudent » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:37 pm

cusenation wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:How about for me?


my inbox is always open lol

Lies.




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