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Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:26 am
by lillawyer2
LeavingHomeSoon wrote:I just got in and I'm seriously considering attending. However, I'd like to know more about the employment of recent classes? Is making ~85k a rather rare outcome upon graduation?


This is a good question!

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:03 pm
by potus
I think unsolicited scholly bumps should be happening this week!

I think employment #s would have to come from alum (albeit can be selective). This was the only info I've looked at: https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... dozo-03103. It's low for private/big law and expected for PI. Can compare with Fordham and other schools for #s.

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:14 pm
by Shakawkaw
potus wrote:I think unsolicited scholly bumps should be happening this week!

I think employment #s would have to come from alum (albeit can be selective). This was the only info I've looked at: https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... dozo-03103. It's low for private/big law and expected for PI. Can compare with Fordham and other schools for #s.


https://www.lstreports.com/compare/cardozo/fordham/

Fordham has a slight advantage with big law placement, but they're pretty toe to toe in terms of employment.

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:20 pm
by potus
Shakawkaw wrote:Fordham has a slight advantage with big law placement, but they're pretty toe to toe in terms of employment.


Yeah, too bad Cardozo on LST doesn't have reported salary info. Thanks for this!

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:24 pm
by Shakawkaw
potus wrote:
Shakawkaw wrote:Fordham has a slight advantage with big law placement, but they're pretty toe to toe in terms of employment.


Yeah, too bad Cardozo on LST doesn't have reported salary info. Thanks for this!


No problem! I'm having a hard time justifying the extra debt from Fordham and will likely commit to Dozo. But I don't want biglaw, so I think that helps a bit. From the Dozo alums who are in small-law (like 5 attorneys in the office), they make around 85k w/o bonuses. Mid-law attorneys start around 120k. Not awful, and I'm sure the salary ranges are the same at Fordham too.

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:02 pm
by lillawyer2
Shakawkaw wrote:
potus wrote:
Shakawkaw wrote:Fordham has a slight advantage with big law placement, but they're pretty toe to toe in terms of employment.


Yeah, too bad Cardozo on LST doesn't have reported salary info. Thanks for this!


No problem! I'm having a hard time justifying the extra debt from Fordham and will likely commit to Dozo. But I don't want biglaw, so I think that helps a bit. From the Dozo alums who are in small-law (like 5 attorneys in the office), they make around 85k w/o bonuses. Mid-law attorneys start around 120k. Not awful, and I'm sure the salary ranges are the same at Fordham too.


OMG I love you. This helps my perspective. Do you know how Cardozo's name holds in nyc. Please correct me if I an wrong, but it doesnt seem to have the clout that Fordham,Columbia,NYU has. I really like Dozo and am gratful for the $$$$. I do not want to throw it away for $$$ at Fordham unless its absolutely worth it.

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:07 pm
by Shakawkaw
lillawyer2 wrote:
Shakawkaw wrote:
potus wrote:
Shakawkaw wrote:Fordham has a slight advantage with big law placement, but they're pretty toe to toe in terms of employment.


Yeah, too bad Cardozo on LST doesn't have reported salary info. Thanks for this!


No problem! I'm having a hard time justifying the extra debt from Fordham and will likely commit to Dozo. But I don't want biglaw, so I think that helps a bit. From the Dozo alums who are in small-law (like 5 attorneys in the office), they make around 85k w/o bonuses. Mid-law attorneys start around 120k. Not awful, and I'm sure the salary ranges are the same at Fordham too.


OMG I love you. This helps my perspective. Do you know how Cardozo's name holds in nyc. Please correct me if I an wrong, but it doesnt seem to have the clout that Fordham,Columbia,NYU has. I really like Dozo and am gratful for the $$$$. I do not want to throw it away for $$$ at Fordham unless its absolutely worth it.


:wink:

Dozo definitely holds clout with the old cats of NYC. If your market is NYC, that's a plus. At the end of the day, I don't really think 100k+ is worth it for the small lay prestige of the Fordham name, and the marginally beneficial job placements in big law. It also seems like the career services in Dozo is promising with the new director.

This is the rationale I'm rolling with for myself. I'm torn with whether I want to even go to Fordham's ASD bc I don't want to like their facilities/campus. :?

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:19 pm
by lillawyer2
Shakawkaw wrote:
lillawyer2 wrote:
Shakawkaw wrote:
potus wrote:
Shakawkaw wrote:Fordham has a slight advantage with big law placement, but they're pretty toe to toe in terms of employment.


Yeah, too bad Cardozo on LST doesn't have reported salary info. Thanks for this!


No problem! I'm having a hard time justifying the extra debt from Fordham and will likely commit to Dozo. But I don't want biglaw, so I think that helps a bit. From the Dozo alums who are in small-law (like 5 attorneys in the office), they make around 85k w/o bonuses. Mid-law attorneys start around 120k. Not awful, and I'm sure the salary ranges are the same at Fordham too.


OMG I love you. This helps my perspective. Do you know how Cardozo's name holds in nyc. Please correct me if I an wrong, but it doesnt seem to have the clout that Fordham,Columbia,NYU has. I really like Dozo and am gratful for the $$$$. I do not want to throw it away for $$$ at Fordham unless its absolutely worth it.


:wink:

Dozo definitely holds clout with the old cats of NYC. If your market is NYC, that's a plus. At the end of the day, I don't really think 100k+ is worth it for the small lay prestige of the Fordham name, and the marginally beneficial job placements in big law. It also seems like the career services in Dozo is promising with the new director.

This is the rationale I'm rolling with for myself. I'm torn with whether I want to even go to Fordham's ASD bc I don't want to like their facilities/campus. :?


Did u go to ASD for Dozo? Do not go to ASD for Fordham, because I think they will really sell you. I do not know what to do.

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:20 pm
by Dave118
commlaw05 wrote:Is anyone deciding between Cardozo w/full ride and Fordham w/almost no $? If so, would love another insight because I'm really torn.


You can look at my post history for a discussion about Cardozo with full vs Fordham with $35k/year. If you're absolutely set on big-law (and making the most money with your degree that you can) then the consensus seems to be that Fordham is worth $50k to $100k. In the words of two people that I spoke to who made it to top firms in NYC, "You'll pay off the money with one summer job." Fordham gives you about another 10% chance of making it in big-law, which is a HUGE difference according to these people (one who graduated top of his class and one who graduated in top 5%). There may be other considerations but purely from a financial outlook Fordham seems to be the way to go.

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:26 pm
by lillawyer2
Dave118 wrote:
commlaw05 wrote:Is anyone deciding between Cardozo w/full ride and Fordham w/almost no $? If so, would love another insight because I'm really torn.


You can look at my post history for a discussion about Cardozo with full vs Fordham with $35k/year. If you're absolutely set on big-law (and making the most money with your degree that you can) then the consensus seems to be that Fordham is worth $50k to $100k. In the words of two people that I spoke to who made it to top firms in NYC, "You'll pay off the money with one summer job." Fordham gives you about another 10% chance of making it in big-law, which is a HUGE difference according to these people (one who graduated top of his class and one who graduated in top 5%). There may be other considerations but purely from a financial outlook Fordham seems to be the way to go.



Ah!! but to turn your back on so much money is hard!

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:29 pm
by potus
lillawyer2 wrote:Ah!! but to turn your back on so much money is hard!


And that's exactly what Cardozo wants with their schollys with no stips. I think there's a lot of potential for Cardozo, especially with the new director in career services as pointed out before. But older schools like Fordham have a certain advantage with their network and alums.

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:35 pm
by Legallylawyer2020
I just am concerned about the ramp program at Cardozo and how that positively influences their employment when it's really a 1 year gig for 40K a year with or without benefits. I think that skews the numbers and I'm not convinced it's worth it. But that's just me.

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:57 pm
by potus
Legallylawyer2020 wrote:I just am concerned about the ramp program at Cardozo and how that positively influences their employment when it's really a 1 year gig for 40K a year with or without benefits. I think that skews the numbers and I'm not convinced it's worth it. But that's just me.


Yep, there was that whole web article about it. I'd imagine they would be under full time short term in ABA disclosures but it doesn't seem so.

https://cardozo.yu.edu/sites/default/fi ... 2015_0.pdf

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:29 pm
by Legallylawyer2020
potus wrote:
Legallylawyer2020 wrote:I just am concerned about the ramp program at Cardozo and how that positively influences their employment when it's really a 1 year gig for 40K a year with or without benefits. I think that skews the numbers and I'm not convinced it's worth it. But that's just me.


Yep, there was that whole web article about it. I'd imagine they would be under full time short term in ABA disclosures but it doesn't seem so.

https://cardozo.yu.edu/sites/default/fi ... 2015_0.pdf


Yea I think the ABA only classifies short term as less than 12 months which is unfortunate. I would define it as anything that has a definitive end date.

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:35 pm
by lillawyer2
potus wrote:
lillawyer2 wrote:Ah!! but to turn your back on so much money is hard!


And that's exactly what Cardozo wants with their schollys with no stips. I think there's a lot of potential for Cardozo, especially with the new director in career services as pointed out before. But older schools like Fordham have a certain advantage with their network and alums.


This sounds good and all, but is it worth the risk? How long has the new director being at their job? Has there been any improvements?

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:37 pm
by Charlie802
Legallylawyer2020 wrote:
potus wrote:
Legallylawyer2020 wrote:I just am concerned about the ramp program at Cardozo and how that positively influences their employment when it's really a 1 year gig for 40K a year with or without benefits. I think that skews the numbers and I'm not convinced it's worth it. But that's just me.


Yep, there was that whole web article about it. I'd imagine they would be under full time short term in ABA disclosures but it doesn't seem so.

https://cardozo.yu.edu/sites/default/fi ... 2015_0.pdf


Yea I think the ABA only classifies short term as less than 12 months which is unfortunate. I would define it as anything that has a definitive end date.


So they don't disclose how many people are employed using this program and use it to skew their employment numbers? That's sketchy.

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:38 pm
by lillawyer2
Legallylawyer2020 wrote:I just am concerned about the ramp program at Cardozo and how that positively influences their employment when it's really a 1 year gig for 40K a year with or without benefits. I think that skews the numbers and I'm not convinced it's worth it. But that's just me.


I do NOT like this.

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:40 pm
by Mikey
potus wrote:
Legallylawyer2020 wrote:I just am concerned about the ramp program at Cardozo and how that positively influences their employment when it's really a 1 year gig for 40K a year with or without benefits. I think that skews the numbers and I'm not convinced it's worth it. But that's just me.


Yep, there was that whole web article about it. I'd imagine they would be under full time short term in ABA disclosures but it doesn't seem so.

https://cardozo.yu.edu/sites/default/fi ... 2015_0.pdf

what exactly does "J.D advantage" positions mean?

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:43 pm
by Legallylawyer2020
Charlie802 wrote:
Legallylawyer2020 wrote:
potus wrote:
Legallylawyer2020 wrote:I just am concerned about the ramp program at Cardozo and how that positively influences their employment when it's really a 1 year gig for 40K a year with or without benefits. I think that skews the numbers and I'm not convinced it's worth it. But that's just me.


Yep, there was that whole web article about it. I'd imagine they would be under full time short term in ABA disclosures but it doesn't seem so.

https://cardozo.yu.edu/sites/default/fi ... 2015_0.pdf


Yea I think the ABA only classifies short term as less than 12 months which is unfortunate. I would define it as anything that has a definitive end date.


So they don't disclose how many people are employed using this program and use it to skew their employment numbers? That's sketchy.


The number of people in the ramp program definitely isn't included in the ABA disclosure info. It may be somewhere else- but I haven't found it. I think salaries also vary fwiw but it's meant to be a cheap way for firms to hire an associate for a year and salaries start at 40K I believe (I doubt anyone is making more than 50-60). I also can't find stats as to how many people stay with the firm, but it's probably too early in the program to tell.

I'm not trying to say don't go to Cardozo at all because I'm considering it- this is just one aspect of their stats that makes me curious/worry.

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:45 pm
by lillawyer2
Mikey wrote:
potus wrote:
Legallylawyer2020 wrote:I just am concerned about the ramp program at Cardozo and how that positively influences their employment when it's really a 1 year gig for 40K a year with or without benefits. I think that skews the numbers and I'm not convinced it's worth it. But that's just me.


Yep, there was that whole web article about it. I'd imagine they would be under full time short term in ABA disclosures but it doesn't seem so.

https://cardozo.yu.edu/sites/default/fi ... 2015_0.pdf

what exactly does "J.D advantage" positions mean?



JD not necessary???

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:49 pm
by Charlie802
Legallylawyer2020 wrote:
Charlie802 wrote:
Legallylawyer2020 wrote:
potus wrote:
Legallylawyer2020 wrote:I just am concerned about the ramp program at Cardozo and how that positively influences their employment when it's really a 1 year gig for 40K a year with or without benefits. I think that skews the numbers and I'm not convinced it's worth it. But that's just me.


Yep, there was that whole web article about it. I'd imagine they would be under full time short term in ABA disclosures but it doesn't seem so.

https://cardozo.yu.edu/sites/default/fi ... 2015_0.pdf


Yea I think the ABA only classifies short term as less than 12 months which is unfortunate. I would define it as anything that has a definitive end date.


So they don't disclose how many people are employed using this program and use it to skew their employment numbers? That's sketchy.


The number of people in the ramp program definitely isn't included in the ABA disclosure info. It may be somewhere else- but I haven't found it. I think salaries also vary fwiw but it's meant to be a cheap way for firms to hire an associate for a year and salaries start at 40K I believe (I doubt anyone is making more than 50-60). I also can't find stats as to how many people stay with the firm, but it's probably too early in the program to tell.

I'm not trying to say don't go to Cardozo at all because I'm considering it- this is just one aspect of their stats that makes me curious/worry.


Thanks for the info. SUPER HELPFUL! I am still considering as well, but the more info the better. I'm actually going on a tour next week and have an appointment set up with career services, if this comes up I will let you all know!

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:50 pm
by potus
Mikey wrote:what exactly does "J.D advantage" positions mean?


Defined in Fordham's ABA disclosures:
A position in this category is one for which the employer sought an individual with a J.D., and perhaps even required a J.D., or for which the J.D. provided a demonstrable advantage in obtaining or performing the job, but which does not itself require bar passage or an active law license or
involve practicing law. Examples of positions for which a J.D. is an advantage include a corporate contracts administrator, alternative dispute
resolution specialist, government regulatory analyst, FBI agent, and accountant. Also included might be jobs in personnel or human resources,
jobs with investment banks, jobs with consulting firms, jobs doing compliance work in business and industry, jobs in law firm professional
development, and jobs in law school career services offices, admissions offices, or other law school administrative offices. Doctors or nurses who
plan to work in a litigation, insurance, or risk management setting, or as expert witnesses, would fall into this category, as would journalists and
teachers (in a higher education setting) of law and law related topics. It is an indicator that a position does not fall into this category if a J.D. is
uncommon among persons holding such a position.

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:56 pm
by potus
Legallylawyer2020 wrote:The number of people in the ramp program definitely isn't included in the ABA disclosure info. It may be somewhere else- but I haven't found it. I think salaries also vary fwiw but it's meant to be a cheap way for firms to hire an associate for a year and salaries start at 40K I believe (I doubt anyone is making more than 50-60). I also can't find stats as to how many people stay with the firm, but it's probably too early in the program to tell.

I'm not trying to say don't go to Cardozo at all because I'm considering it- this is just one aspect of their stats that makes me curious/worry.


Just did a quick search since I'm bored at work: https://cardozo.yu.edu/news/cardozo-law ... -graduates

RAMP jobs offered to recent graduates have increased almost four-fold since 2013, when the program was created. In 2015, 130 employers partnered with Cardozo Law to offer jobs through RAMP, and to date, 33 students from the class of 2015 secured jobs through the program.


Using the* 2015 disclosure -- 33 out of 362 or approximately 9% of the 2015 graduating class were employed through RAMP. I'd imagine that eats into the Employed # breakdown whether it's bar passage required or other.

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:58 pm
by Mikey
potus wrote:
Mikey wrote:what exactly does "J.D advantage" positions mean?


Defined in Fordham's ABA disclosures:
[+] Spoiler
A position in this category is one for which the employer sought an individual with a J.D., and perhaps even required a J.D., or for which the J.D. provided a demonstrable advantage in obtaining or performing the job, but which does not itself require bar passage or an active law license or
involve practicing law. Examples of positions for which a J.D. is an advantage include a corporate contracts administrator, alternative dispute
resolution specialist, government regulatory analyst, FBI agent, and accountant. Also included might be jobs in personnel or human resources,
jobs with investment banks, jobs with consulting firms, jobs doing compliance work in business and industry, jobs in law firm professional
development, and jobs in law school career services offices, admissions offices, or other law school administrative offices. Doctors or nurses who
plan to work in a litigation, insurance, or risk management setting, or as expert witnesses, would fall into this category, as would journalists and
teachers (in a higher education setting) of law and law related topics. It is an indicator that a position does not fall into this category if a J.D. is
uncommon among persons holding such a position.

interesting, thanks

Re: Cardozo Law C/O 2020

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:07 pm
by Shakawkaw
potus wrote:
Legallylawyer2020 wrote:The number of people in the ramp program definitely isn't included in the ABA disclosure info. It may be somewhere else- but I haven't found it. I think salaries also vary fwiw but it's meant to be a cheap way for firms to hire an associate for a year and salaries start at 40K I believe (I doubt anyone is making more than 50-60). I also can't find stats as to how many people stay with the firm, but it's probably too early in the program to tell.

I'm not trying to say don't go to Cardozo at all because I'm considering it- this is just one aspect of their stats that makes me curious/worry.


Just did a quick search since I'm bored at work: https://cardozo.yu.edu/news/cardozo-law ... -graduates

RAMP jobs offered to recent graduates have increased almost four-fold since 2013, when the program was created. In 2015, 130 employers partnered with Cardozo Law to offer jobs through RAMP, and to date, 33 students from the class of 2015 secured jobs through the program.


Using the* 2015 disclosure -- 33 out of 362 or approximately 9% of the 2015 graduating class were employed through RAMP. I'd imagine that eats into the Employed # breakdown whether it's bar passage required or other.


My guess is that these are people who are in the bottom of the class.