UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

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PinoyMamba
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby PinoyMamba » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:28 am

mudiverse wrote:
PinoyMamba wrote:
khaleesi_k wrote:For people who went to ASW - what did you think?


They did a good job selling the school... almost too good. Very impressed.


Can you offer some details or a quick rundown? Any word on Dean C's departure etc?


Dean C gave a morning welcome speech on Day 2 and addressed it saying that he may or may not leave and nothing is final. He assures that the success, community culture, public service mission and strong faculty will continue whether or not he leaves.

You could tell he's very emotionally invested with UCI. He's done a terrific job with the school and believes if it wasn't for the way USNWR considers job placement, UCI should be ranked higher than it actually is.

lawboundsomeday
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby lawboundsomeday » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:58 am

zot1 wrote:
lawboundsomeday wrote:
zot1 wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:
zot1 wrote:
BobBoblaw wrote:
zot1 wrote:
I get that you have the "experience of alumni." But I'm telling you what I've seen while a clerk in multiple chambers. I mean, just last month we interviewed someone that was below our typical cutoff on Chem's recommendation.

Anyways, I'll stop posting in the Irvine thread and leave you to it, and I guess ultimately, the next few years will show the level of significance Chem had.


I agree that it will be a major hit. You guys are ignoring an important aspect IMHO: if he is dean at BERKELEY, he will be using those networks and connections on behalf of THEM. So it’s worse than if he just weren’t dean anymore, or retired. He will be fighting and using his power to get those spots for a DIFFERENT group of students not at UCI.

If he goes to Berkeley as dean, predict that within three years Irvine’s clerkship rate will be half what it is now . . . . at best. That’s not a dig at Irvine, or a at Erwin, it’s just a reality. And anyone want to make a bet on Irvine’s USN rating in three years if Erwin is dean at another law school? It won’t be higher, I would bet a years law school tuition on that. The question is just how much lower will it be? Again, no one’s fault, and not trying to criticize UCI. I actually think UCI has done majorly well for a school so brand-new. And lots of deans don’t matter that much to a story of a school. But this one did and does and what he does next does too.


I'm not ignoring anything. A few things: not every UCI student who gets a clerkship gets it because of Dean C. Thinking this is silly. You can't call favors for several years. Instead, he recommends some students and I'm sure some of those judges consider the recommendation highly. Still, we are not talking about the entire UCI clerking pool.

Sure, if he goes to Berkeley, he'll likely do the same for Berkeley students. But you're assuming that more people at Berkeley would like to clerk than already do and that somehow one Berkeley student getting a clerkship equals one UCI student not getting it.


Yes, more students at Berkeley (especially medium-strong but not superstar students) would be interested in clerking. No question. And yes, Chem using his juice to help them means not using it for UCI students. It doesnt’ mean that UCI students won’t have other paths. But I think you are radically underestimating Chem’s power and influence here if you don’t think that a big part of UCI’s placement on this score isn’t cuz of him. Not trying to dish on UCI or on Chem, and I think they’ll still get a few clerkships without him thanks to judges who have had good experiences with UCI. but it will matter, probably fair amount. That’s all.

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zot1
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby zot1 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:39 pm

lawboundsomeday wrote:
Yes, more students at Berkeley (especially medium-strong but not superstar students) would be interested in clerking. No question. And yes, Chem using his juice to help them means not using it for UCI students. It doesnt’ mean that UCI students won’t have other paths. But I think you are radically underestimating Chem’s power and influence here if you don’t think that a big part of UCI’s placement on this score isn’t cuz of him. Not trying to dish on UCI or on Chem, and I think they’ll still get a few clerkships without him thanks to judges who have had good experiences with UCI. but it will matter, probably fair amount. That’s all.


I don't know, bro. I know roughly who's gotten clerkships because of him and who hasn't. You don't. So there's that.

EDIT: you're not discussing this with a fellow 0L with no experience with the school or the legal market. When I was applying to UCI, back when it was unranked, I was told countless of times by other 0Ls who were t-14 bound to enjoy my debt and unemployment since I was going to a school that couldn't make it past a few years. You're not the first one to this party and you won't be the last. Enjoy your t-14 and let others enjoy their time at UCI.

That being said, I'll follow my own advice since I feel I've crowded this thread too much. Good luck to those of you going to UCI or any other school!
Last edited by zot1 on Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

estateplanning
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby estateplanning » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:18 pm

I'll add my thoughts on ASW:

Like a previous poster stated, Dean C addressed, in his own words, the "elephant in the room." He stated that his original intention all along was to stay for 10 years (next year will be his 10th year) and have a reevaluation to see the progress of the school and how it could go forward. He stated that he was not the one to lead the reevaluation. He also qualified his statement that he could leave the deanship a little before or stay a little while after his tenth year. Nothing is set in stone. During the Q&A session, several students asked about his how his potential leaving could affect clerkship rates. He said that judges are very impressed with UCI clerks, and that his personal advocacy with judges for UCI grads trying to clerk was more prominent in the first couple years of the law school. UCI grads attaining clerkships now are not dependent on his personal advocacy. (please note that this paragraph is what Dean C said. I have not included any personal thoughts, as to try and remain as objective and informative as possible)

On that note, I met a 2L who will be clerking for a circuit judge. He stated that he secured his clerkship without Dean C.

Overall, I was very impressed, particularly with Dean C's class and UCI Talks with professors. If Dean C and professors who hosted the talks are a microcosm of the rest of the faculty at UCI Law, I can see why the faculty is ranked 6th in the country. But aside from the scholarship, they seem to do a great job at teaching and very enthralling when they speak (another 2L I talked to told me that all the professors at UCI Law are like that).

estateplanning
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby estateplanning » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:54 pm

Also wanted to add one more thing:

Dean C also talked at length about the law-school funded jobs, which he believes are not accurately represented by US News and Report rankings. He stated that many of these law school funded jobs are in the public sector, and that they lead to full-time employment. An example he mentioned was Gideon's Promise, where the law school will sponsor the graduate for one year in a public defender's office, and then the PD's office will guarantee a full-time position. Dean C stated that UCI Law has placed more grads in Gideon's Promise than any other law school (I think he said over the last three years, if my memory is correct).

I wanted to do some research myself on Gideon's Promise, and it seems like it does lead to full-time employment after one year. Link here: http://www.gideonspromise.org/programs/lspp

kingwhereofis
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby kingwhereofis » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:35 pm

But I think you are radically underestimating Chem’s power and influence here if you don’t think that a big part of UCI’s placement on this score isn’t cuz of him.

As anyone who actually goes or has gone to UCI will tell you, Chem's influence in securing student clerkships is radically overstated.

And to be honest, if you were only thinking of coming here in reliance on the dean procuring you a clerkship I would wholeheartedly discourage you from doing so. Our clerkship numbers are a product of very hard work from students and an unusually supportive faculty and administration, not favors from our Dean!

WheninLaw
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby WheninLaw » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:10 pm

kingwhereofis wrote:
But I think you are radically underestimating Chem’s power and influence here if you don’t think that a big part of UCI’s placement on this score isn’t cuz of him.

As anyone who actually goes or has gone to UCI will tell you, Chem's influence in securing student clerkships is radically overstated.

And to be honest, if you were only thinking of coming here in reliance on the dean procuring you a clerkship I would wholeheartedly discourage you from doing so. Our clerkship numbers are a product of very hard work from students and an unusually supportive faculty and administration, not favors from our Dean!


I do not understand why many of you are so aggressive about this. Chem has an appreciable effect on the clerkship rate, and those of us that have worked for CA9, CDCA, SDCA, etc. can attest to it. He makes a significant number of calls, and those calls matters. It is silly to argue otherwise, and defies reality. It also comes off as insecure. Like, I went to Chicago, and there are two or three professors that are responsible for a good chunk of the elite clerkships. Without them, our %'s would decrease, or stay the same but with less elite positions. The same is true of UCI.

I mean, there's a reason why UCI's clerkship rate began at Yale-level numbers and has decreased consistently almost every year. Once Chem leaves, I would be VERY surprised if it did not continue to decrease, and end up settling near where UCLA and USC are (6-8%).

Edit: I also do not understand the outrage at "favors" from your Dean. Clerkships are difficult to get, and every law school in the country has professors that make calls and write letters on behalf of otherwise qualified candidates.

kingwhereofis
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby kingwhereofis » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:34 pm

WheninLaw wrote:
kingwhereofis wrote:
But I think you are radically underestimating Chem’s power and influence here if you don’t think that a big part of UCI’s placement on this score isn’t cuz of him.

As anyone who actually goes or has gone to UCI will tell you, Chem's influence in securing student clerkships is radically overstated.

And to be honest, if you were only thinking of coming here in reliance on the dean procuring you a clerkship I would wholeheartedly discourage you from doing so. Our clerkship numbers are a product of very hard work from students and an unusually supportive faculty and administration, not favors from our Dean!


I do not understand why many of you are so aggressive about this. Chem has an appreciable effect on the clerkship rate, and those of us that have worked for CA9, CDCA, SDCA, etc. can attest to it. He makes a significant number of calls, and those calls matters. It is silly to argue otherwise, and defies reality. It also comes off as insecure. Like, I went to Chicago, and there are two or three professors that are responsible for a good chunk of the elite clerkships. Without them, our %'s would decrease, or stay the same but with less elite positions. The same is true of UCI.

I mean, there's a reason why UCI's clerkship rate began at Yale-level numbers and has decreased consistently almost every year. Once Chem leaves, I would be VERY surprised if it did not continue to decrease, and end up settling near where UCLA and USC are (6-8%).

Edit: I also do not understand the outrage at "favors" from your Dean. Clerkships are difficult to get, and every law school in the country has professors that make calls and write letters on behalf of otherwise qualified candidates.


I apologize for being unclear! I didn't mean to come across as aggressive. I understand that recommendations are crucial to the process, and like you say, every law school has people going to bat for students. I'm not saying the Dean doesn't recommend students, but our clerkship numbers "dependence" on his recommendations is greatly overstated, despite your assertion to the contrary.

I don't think it's insecure to think that those of us who actually go or have gone to UCI have a good idea of what's happening on our campus, and the effect our dean potentially leaving would have. That said, an outsider's perspective can also be valuable, and I wholly believe 0Ls should be critical consumers of a wide range of information regarding their choice of law school!

I mean, there's a reason why UCI's clerkship rate began at Yale-level numbers and has decreased consistently almost every year. Once Chem leaves, I would be VERY surprised if it did not continue to decrease, and end up settling near where UCLA and USC are (6-8%).


Our clerkship numbers have actually increased every year since 2014 in both absolute numbers and as a percent of class size. :)

WheninLaw
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby WheninLaw » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:25 am

kingwhereofis wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:
kingwhereofis wrote:
But I think you are radically underestimating Chem’s power and influence here if you don’t think that a big part of UCI’s placement on this score isn’t cuz of him.

As anyone who actually goes or has gone to UCI will tell you, Chem's influence in securing student clerkships is radically overstated.

And to be honest, if you were only thinking of coming here in reliance on the dean procuring you a clerkship I would wholeheartedly discourage you from doing so. Our clerkship numbers are a product of very hard work from students and an unusually supportive faculty and administration, not favors from our Dean!


I do not understand why many of you are so aggressive about this. Chem has an appreciable effect on the clerkship rate, and those of us that have worked for CA9, CDCA, SDCA, etc. can attest to it. He makes a significant number of calls, and those calls matters. It is silly to argue otherwise, and defies reality. It also comes off as insecure. Like, I went to Chicago, and there are two or three professors that are responsible for a good chunk of the elite clerkships. Without them, our %'s would decrease, or stay the same but with less elite positions. The same is true of UCI.

I mean, there's a reason why UCI's clerkship rate began at Yale-level numbers and has decreased consistently almost every year. Once Chem leaves, I would be VERY surprised if it did not continue to decrease, and end up settling near where UCLA and USC are (6-8%).

Edit: I also do not understand the outrage at "favors" from your Dean. Clerkships are difficult to get, and every law school in the country has professors that make calls and write letters on behalf of otherwise qualified candidates.


I apologize for being unclear! I didn't mean to come across as aggressive. I understand that recommendations are crucial to the process, and like you say, every law school has people going to bat for students. I'm not saying the Dean doesn't recommend students, but our clerkship numbers "dependence" on his recommendations is greatly overstated, despite your assertion to the contrary.

I don't think it's insecure to think that those of us who actually go or have gone to UCI have a good idea of what's happening on our campus, and the effect our dean potentially leaving would have. That said, an outsider's perspective can also be valuable, and I wholly believe 0Ls should be critical consumers of a wide range of information regarding their choice of law school!


I did not say UCI was dependent on UCI, but rather, that he is responsible for a non-insignificant number, and his absence will have an appreciable effect on the clerkship rate. I would be very surprised if it stayed above 10%.

At this point, we can agree to disagree. You have your personal UCI experiences and anecdotes of classmates, and I have my personal experience of chambers plus the anecdotes of co-clerks. We can come back to this in 2020 and see who is right :)

UCIpost
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby UCIpost » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:52 am

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Last edited by UCIpost on Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

kingwhereofis
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby kingwhereofis » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:24 am

WheninLaw wrote:At this point, we can agree to disagree. You have your personal UCI experiences and anecdotes of classmates, and I have my personal experience of chambers plus the anecdotes of co-clerks. We can come back to this in 2020 and see who is right :)


Don't just take my word for it. Take the Dean's, or anyone else from UCI who has clerked. :)

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Kimmysradscreenname
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby Kimmysradscreenname » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:46 pm

Assasindowntheavenue wrote:
Kimmysradscreenname wrote:
Assasindowntheavenue wrote:Did they bump the date we'd hear about housing offers or am I remembering incorrectly? Thought we'd hear in May, not June.


From the email that the Dir. of Student Financial Srvcs just sent out:

Housing Offer: Housing preferences recorded in your application will be used to make a “best fit” offer from the available spaces across the six participating communities. Offers will be sent via email by June 1st, 2017. Follow all instructions contained in your offer email and respond by the deadline indicated.

So we should hear sometime in May, unless for some reason they save one big email blast for June 1.


Yeah it was this email that I was referring to because in a previous email they said they'd let us know by May 27 (just looked it up). I guess waiting 5 days longer isn't a bit deal, just was curious about it.


Just saw on the Admitted Students main page of the website that May 18 is the "deadline" for accepting/declining guaranteed student housing offers... so you are right, there is some inconsistency.

WheninLaw
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby WheninLaw » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:16 pm

UCIpost wrote:Do you think the potential clerkship hit UCI could take would be as pronounced if he decides to take some time off after stepping down as Dean at the end of next year and then returns to the faculty as an adjunct professor instead of leaving the school to become Dean of Berkeley (assuming he is still willing to give students recommendations, although to a lesser extent)? Also, in your experience at what point does a law school student/graduate usually have a faculty member reach out to a Judge in regards to clerkships (2L, 3L, after graduating, etc.)?


No, I do not think the hit would be nearly as pronounced. Of course, there would be some impact, considering (1) Chem's not hustling for clerkships while he takes time off, and (2) his impact might be less in an adjunct professor role, but overall, I think UCI would still have a strong clerkship rate. The school is obviously well-aware of Chem's placement power (despite the assertions to the contrary above), and would push hard to keep that train moving.

As for reaching out, totally depends. At Circuit Court, it was more common for a professor to make a call before the student had even applied, and I would often get their materials after an interview was scheduled. For District Court, the call usually came after the application.

kingwhereofis
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby kingwhereofis » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:44 pm

WheninLaw wrote:
UCIpost wrote:Do you think the potential clerkship hit UCI could take would be as pronounced if he decides to take some time off after stepping down as Dean at the end of next year and then returns to the faculty as an adjunct professor instead of leaving the school to become Dean of Berkeley (assuming he is still willing to give students recommendations, although to a lesser extent)? Also, in your experience at what point does a law school student/graduate usually have a faculty member reach out to a Judge in regards to clerkships (2L, 3L, after graduating, etc.)?


The school is obviously well-aware of Chem's placement power (despite the assertions to the contrary above), and would push hard to keep that train moving.

More importantly, the number of students that Chemerinsky felt deserved a recommendation wouldn't change just because he was no longer Dean. The school isn't and wouldn't "push" him to do anything, that's just not how our community works!

yeezytaughtme
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby yeezytaughtme » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:13 pm

Why is everyone on this website so hell-bent on bringing UCI down?

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charles117
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby charles117 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:36 pm

yeezytaughtme wrote:Why is everyone on this website so hell-bent on bringing UCI down?


Prospective students doing due diligence is hardly the same as trying to bring the law school down.

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zot1
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby zot1 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:57 am

I know I promised to stay away, but...

I'm currently in DC for a business trip. My schedule is packed at the moment, but in case someone considering UCI is in the D.C. area and would like to meet with me sometimes this week to discuss the school, please PM me to see if we can arrange it.

Zot out.

WheninLaw
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby WheninLaw » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:52 pm

kingwhereofis wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:
UCIpost wrote:Do you think the potential clerkship hit UCI could take would be as pronounced if he decides to take some time off after stepping down as Dean at the end of next year and then returns to the faculty as an adjunct professor instead of leaving the school to become Dean of Berkeley (assuming he is still willing to give students recommendations, although to a lesser extent)? Also, in your experience at what point does a law school student/graduate usually have a faculty member reach out to a Judge in regards to clerkships (2L, 3L, after graduating, etc.)?


The school is obviously well-aware of Chem's placement power (despite the assertions to the contrary above), and would push hard to keep that train moving.

More importantly, the number of students that Chemerinsky felt deserved a recommendation wouldn't change just because he was no longer Dean. The school isn't and wouldn't "push" him to do anything, that's just not how our community works!


You are really harping on singular words and ignoring the general point. Of course, UCI is not going to waterboard Chem until he calls twenty judges. But whomever the new Dean is + career services + clerkship office will certainly encourage him to reach out on behalf of star students.

@Yeezy, bringing UCI down? To the contrary. I'm a big UCI fan, and have encouraged my employers to hire them. But the notion that Chem's absence will not have an appreciable effect on employment rates is fiction.

kingwhereofis
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby kingwhereofis » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:21 pm

WheninLaw wrote:You are really harping on singular words and ignoring the general point. Of course, UCI is not going to waterboard Chem until he calls twenty judges. But whomever the new Dean is + career services + clerkship office will certainly encourage him to reach out on behalf of star students.

@Yeezy, bringing UCI down? To the contrary. I'm a big UCI fan, and have encouraged my employers to hire them. But the notion that Chem's absence will not have an appreciable effect on employment rates is fiction.

Again, no offense, but that's just not how our community works. You're entitled to believe whatever you want about our school, but I don't want potential students missing the other side of the story.
Last edited by kingwhereofis on Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WheninLaw
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby WheninLaw » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:22 pm

kingwhereofis wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:You are really harping on singular words and ignoring the general point. Of course, UCI is not going to waterboard Chem until he calls twenty judges. But whomever the new Dean is + career services + clerkship office will certainly encourage him to reach out on behalf of star students.

@Yeezy, bringing UCI down? To the contrary. I'm a big UCI fan, and have encouraged my employers to hire them. But the notion that Chem's absence will not have an appreciable effect on employment rates is fiction.

Again, no offense, but that's just not how our community works.


You're not saying anything of substance. Tell me how the community works.

kingwhereofis
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby kingwhereofis » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:25 pm

WheninLaw wrote:
kingwhereofis wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:You are really harping on singular words and ignoring the general point. Of course, UCI is not going to waterboard Chem until he calls twenty judges. But whomever the new Dean is + career services + clerkship office will certainly encourage him to reach out on behalf of star students.

@Yeezy, bringing UCI down? To the contrary. I'm a big UCI fan, and have encouraged my employers to hire them. But the notion that Chem's absence will not have an appreciable effect on employment rates is fiction.

Again, no offense, but that's just not how our community works.


You're not saying anything of substance. Tell me how the community works.


Our professors are given almost absolute academic freedom. They can teach how they want, research what they want, recommend who they want, use whatever materials they want. It is just one way that we've attracted a faculty that ranks 6th in the nation.

No one pressures, and indeed never would pressure, the Dean or any professor to recommend any more students than he or she wanted.

WheninLaw
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby WheninLaw » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:39 pm

kingwhereofis wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:
kingwhereofis wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:You are really harping on singular words and ignoring the general point. Of course, UCI is not going to waterboard Chem until he calls twenty judges. But whomever the new Dean is + career services + clerkship office will certainly encourage him to reach out on behalf of star students.

@Yeezy, bringing UCI down? To the contrary. I'm a big UCI fan, and have encouraged my employers to hire them. But the notion that Chem's absence will not have an appreciable effect on employment rates is fiction.

Again, no offense, but that's just not how our community works.


You're not saying anything of substance. Tell me how the community works.


Our professors are given almost absolute academic freedom. They can teach how they want, research what they want, recommend who they want, use whatever materials they want. It is just one way that we've attracted a faculty that ranks 6th in the nation.

No one pressures, and indeed never would pressure, the Dean or any professor to recommend any more students than he or she wanted.


Goodness. Read my posts. I did not say (or mean to imply) that the school would force Chem to recommend people. What I said was that the school is obviously well-aware of his significance on clerkships, and would encourage him to continue to do so if he took a reduced role. I envision it would be as simple as "x student is tremendous, we think she has a good shot of y clerkship."

I truly, TRULY do not understand what (or why) you are disputing here. Sure, UCI's faculty is great, but every law professor has "absolute academic freedom." Every Dean recommends students for clerkships, why wouldn't they? My ultimate point was that assuming Chem does not leave, the clerkship rate will decrease, but stay healthy. That's it.

abcdefg1234567
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby abcdefg1234567 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:43 pm

Dean C said that his calls were, for good reason, much more important in the first few years of the law school and that this year he made only a few calls/recommendations and that he wasn't sure how important they were in securing clerkships for those students. Additionally, he said now that UCI graduates have been clerking for a sufficient amount of time, their reputation has led to more and more judges hiring second and third UCI judges. Couple this with the rest of UCI's faculty and their connections/influence, growing alumni reach, and an awesome CDO and I think that UCI will no doubt continue to shine in both employment statistics and bar pass rate.

abcdefg1234567
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby abcdefg1234567 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:45 pm

WheninLaw wrote:
kingwhereofis wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:
kingwhereofis wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:You are really harping on singular words and ignoring the general point. Of course, UCI is not going to waterboard Chem until he calls twenty judges. But whomever the new Dean is + career services + clerkship office will certainly encourage him to reach out on behalf of star students.

@Yeezy, bringing UCI down? To the contrary. I'm a big UCI fan, and have encouraged my employers to hire them. But the notion that Chem's absence will not have an appreciable effect on employment rates is fiction.

Again, no offense, but that's just not how our community works.


You're not saying anything of substance. Tell me how the community works.


Our professors are given almost absolute academic freedom. They can teach how they want, research what they want, recommend who they want, use whatever materials they want. It is just one way that we've attracted a faculty that ranks 6th in the nation.

No one pressures, and indeed never would pressure, the Dean or any professor to recommend any more students than he or she wanted.


Goodness. Read my posts. I did not say (or mean to imply) that the school would force Chem to recommend people. What I said was that the school is obviously well-aware of his significance on clerkships, and would encourage him to continue to do so if he took a reduced role. I envision it would be as simple as "x student is tremendous, we think she has a good shot of y clerkship."

I truly, TRULY do not understand what (or why) you are disputing here. Sure, UCI's faculty is great, but every law professor has "absolute academic freedom." Every Dean recommends students for clerkships, why wouldn't they? My ultimate point was that assuming Chem does not leave, the clerkship rate will decrease, but stay healthy. That's it.


Let's say he does go to Cal in the Fall, do you think that UCI's chancellor, faculty, and administrators wouldn't do all that they could to recruit an equally if not more influential dean in his place?

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zot1
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Re: UC Irvine c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017)

Postby zot1 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:52 pm

WheninLaw wrote:
You are really harping on singular words and ignoring the general point. Of course, UCI is not going to waterboard Chem until he calls twenty judges. But whomever the new Dean is + career services + clerkship office will certainly encourage him to reach out on behalf of star students.

@Yeezy, bringing UCI down? To the contrary. I'm a big UCI fan, and have encouraged my employers to hire them. But the notion that Chem's absence will not have an appreciable effect on employment rates is fiction.


I really wanted to stay out...

Why do you think it's possible for you to a big UCI fan and not for employers to feel the same way? You've had positive interactions with UCI grads that led to you forming your feelings. Why can't employers feel the same way?

I think the problem those connected with UCI have with your assertions is that it completely undermines the hard work of students to get to where they are now or where they will be later on. Additionally, I don't want potential students to believe that if Dean C stays that means they can cruise through three years of schooling because he's just going to get them a job because it simply doesn't work that way.

If all it takes for someone to get a job is for Dean C to make a call, then why does UCI still have unemployment?

You assume Dean C makes calls for stars but do stars need that call even? You even mentioned that the person you know of didn't have good enough stats to get in your chambers. That doesn't sound like a star to me now, does it?

At all of my interviews for jobs, except for my post grad job, I was either told "we've been eager to try out a UCI student" or "we had a UCI student last summer and wanted another one!" (This is personal experience different from what I related about clerkships before since for those I know what I'm told).

I must add Dean C isn't connected to all of the judiciary. Yes, he knows many judges but not all and not all would listen to him. So I do believe his impact is overstated as many clerks have in fact been hired without Dean C having any type of involvement.

Plus, the other thing I think you're missing is that those at UCI who clerked generally have biglaw offers. So while I concede is plausible federal clerkship placement could slow down, presumably general employment numbers won't because this people would simply go to their firm without going to a clerkship.




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