Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

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ticklemesilly
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Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby ticklemesilly » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:38 pm

I'm trying to negotiate up to 75K from Duke.

3.6X/170

Offers:

60K Duke
75K Michigan

135K WUSTL
60K Cornell
95K Vandy

If you are willing, I have two questions for y'all.

First, if Duke isn't willing to raise my offer, what would you choose- Duke or Michigan.

Second, which offers should I use to negotiate with Duke? Do I even bring Vandy or WUSTL into the picture?

Thanks all!!
Last edited by ticklemesilly on Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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downbeat14
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby downbeat14 » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:48 pm

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Last edited by downbeat14 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ticklemesilly
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby ticklemesilly » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:41 pm

Cornell only offered me 60K though so because I got less to a lower ranked school and am heavily leaning toward public interest (it's my ultimate goal but have to pay off those pesky loans first) I completely took it off the table.

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tincan678
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby tincan678 » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:57 pm

downbeat14 wrote:Ok so you might want big law... why the hell are you not considering Cornell over Duke and Michigan here?

FYI:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/ ... igan/duke/

I'll save you the suspense... Cornell places a higher percentage into BL and Fed Clerk than the other two you are considering. You should get Cornell to raise their offer using the Michigan and Duke offers via negotiating and go there where your odds at big law are better.


A little aggressive there. Biglaw exists outside of NYC. if OP wants to practice in DC or Chicago, then Cornell would be a huge mistake. Likewise Cornell would be worse than either Michigan or Duke for PI.

OP: If negotiating doesn't work, you should visit both schools and talk to alumni. Both schools will give you plenty of opportunities.

BigZuck
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:58 pm

downbeat14 wrote:Ok so you might want big law... why the hell are you not considering Cornell over Duke and Michigan here?

FYI:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/ ... igan/duke/

I'll save you the suspense... Cornell places a higher percentage into BL and Fed Clerk than the other two you are considering. You should get Cornell to raise their offer using the Michigan and Duke offers via negotiating and go there where your odds at big law are better.

Why do you think it would be easier to get big law from Cornell as opposed to Duke/Michigan? Because the percentages on LST are higher? Percentages fluctuate from year to year, some times Duke "outplaces" Cornell and vice versa. I doubt it's actually any easier to get big law at Cornell than at the other two. (Also, check out the class of 2012 and 2011)

All three schools are basically a wash, cost and other factors should rule the day here.

OP- show the Michigan offer to Duke and watch the magic happen.

BigZuck
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:01 pm

tincan678 wrote:
downbeat14 wrote:Ok so you might want big law... why the hell are you not considering Cornell over Duke and Michigan here?

FYI:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/ ... igan/duke/

I'll save you the suspense... Cornell places a higher percentage into BL and Fed Clerk than the other two you are considering. You should get Cornell to raise their offer using the Michigan and Duke offers via negotiating and go there where your odds at big law are better.


A little aggressive there. Biglaw exists outside of NYC. if OP wants to practice in DC or Chicago, then Cornell would be a huge mistake. Likewise Cornell would be worse than either Michigan or Duke for PI.

OP: If negotiating doesn't work, you should visit both schools and talk to alumni. Both schools will give you plenty of opportunities.

I think you're being aggressive as well.

Cornell and Duke are, like, pretty much the exact same school. I don't see either offering something that the other does not.

Nomo
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby Nomo » Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:15 pm

Depends on what your total debt at repayment will be (which includes tuition increases, COL, loan origination fees, and interest that builds while you're in school). Do you know what that number is for each school? There are calculators that can help.

Nobody can give you a good response without knowing this.

ticklemesilly
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby ticklemesilly » Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:09 pm

So if I approach Duke, do I show them the Vandy/WUSTL offer as well or no?

How long should the email be?

BigZuck
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:32 pm

ticklemesilly wrote:So if I approach Duke, do I show them the Vandy/WUSTL offer as well or no?

How long should the email be?

Two cycles ago, I had 60K at Duke and 90K at Cornell. Just showed them the Cornell offer and they matched.

woeisme
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby woeisme » Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:49 pm

You should show all offers to all schools and let them determine what they care about. I'd cross WUSTL and Vanderbilt off your list since they overlap geographically with Michigan and Duke and aren't as strong, and since you've already got good T14 money. But bring those offers to your T14 options and see if they'll be swayed - why wouldn't you do that? In fact, you should definitely bring all of your offers to all of your schools... what's the downside of holding back?

As between Cornell, Duke, and Michigan, don't worry about any difference in ranking here. These are all peer schools and your decision should come down to personal preference, cost, and geography; ever-so-slight edge to Cornell for Northeast (Boston/NYC), to Duke for South (Atlanta/Miami), and to Michigan for West and Mid-West (Chicago/California). But these three schools can open the same doors so definitely tell all of them about all your other offers and then reevaluate when you know your final options.

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downbeat14
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby downbeat14 » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:44 pm

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Last edited by downbeat14 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tkim88
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby tkim88 » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:30 pm

duke ftw

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Winston1984
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby Winston1984 » Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:07 pm

woeisme wrote:You should show all offers to all schools and let them determine what they care about. I'd cross WUSTL and Vanderbilt off your list since they overlap geographically with Michigan and Duke and aren't as strong, and since you've already got good T14 money. But bring those offers to your T14 options and see if they'll be swayed - why wouldn't you do that? In fact, you should definitely bring all of your offers to all of your schools... what's the downside of holding back?

As between Cornell, Duke, and Michigan, don't worry about any difference in ranking here. These are all peer schools and your decision should come down to personal preference, cost, and geography; ever-so-slight edge to Cornell for Northeast (Boston/NYC), to Duke for South (Atlanta/Miami), and to Michigan for West and Mid-West (Chicago/California). But these three schools can open the same doors so definitely tell all of them about all your other offers and then reevaluate when you know your final options.

Definitely second this. OP, where are you interested in working? It's definitely possible to get to Atlanta from Michigan, but it would probably be easier coming from Duke, for example.

ticklemesilly
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby ticklemesilly » Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:11 pm

Northern CA/ West Coast (Seattle, for example)
Washington D.C.
Atlanta

I have no idea where I'll end up but these are all places I love and could see myself living. So I'm hoping for the degree that gives me the most mobility. I like that both Michigan and Duke don't have a central market and seem to send their alumni all over.

woeisme
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby woeisme » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:58 pm

ticklemesilly wrote:Northern CA/ West Coast (Seattle, for example)
Washington D.C.
Atlanta

I have no idea where I'll end up but these are all places I love and could see myself living. So I'm hoping for the degree that gives me the most mobility. I like that both Michigan and Duke don't have a central market and seem to send their alumni all over.


But this is self selection from the perspective of students and employers alike. Because NYC is such a huge legal market, it's going to be the "central market" for any school located in New York. Columbia and NYU, like Cornell, predominantly place their graduates in NYC. But this isn't because these schools aren't mobile, ... it's just the nature of being located near NYC. Like NYC is already one of the most popular destinations for T14 grads.

I think you're definitely confusing self-selection for a lack of mobility. C, D, and M are peers in the In the aggregate; if you have the right ties and grades, these three schools open the exact same doors and give you the exact same mobility. The difference comes into play most in the event you don't do well in law school or are extremely socially awkward or something. In those situations, the regional areas I previously identified come into play as a practical matter and given the amount of regional employers looking at each school.

In the end, because you are not interested in working in the northeast and seem to otherwise have a personal preference for Michigan and Duke, I'd follow that instinct. I get the impression that you want to go to Duke and are asking us how to go about getting them to match Michigan. Have you tried asking? As I keep saying, these schools are peers so there's a good chance they'll match one another's offers. Good luck.

ticklemesilly
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby ticklemesilly » Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:18 am

Thanks for all the advice. At this point it's Duke if they match Michigan and Michigan if they don't :)

ticklemesilly
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby ticklemesilly » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:49 am

Anyone know what the culture is like at Duke vs Michigan? A Georgetown lawyer I was interviewing with scared me a little when she said she did not fit in with the people at the admitted students week at Duke. She said the girls were all wearing pearls and were perfect little southern belles. I'm sure this is an exasperation but I started to become worried because I know that alumni contacts are very important in law school and I'm terrified of not fitting in.

Can anyone shed some light on the culture of these two schools? I'm a feminist (NOT A MAN HATER, totally not the same thing), atheist, very liberal (but not offensive about it), and used to be a vegetarian (and strongly leaning toward it).

BigZuck
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby BigZuck » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:32 pm

ticklemesilly wrote:Anyone know what the culture is like at Duke vs Michigan? A Georgetown lawyer I was interviewing with scared me a little when she said she did not fit in with the people at the admitted students week at Duke. She said the girls were all wearing pearls and were perfect little southern belles. I'm sure this is an exasperation but I started to become worried because I know that alumni contacts are very important in law school and I'm terrified of not fitting in.

Can anyone shed some light on the culture of these two schools? I'm a feminist (NOT A MAN HATER, totally not the same thing), atheist, very liberal (but not offensive about it), and used to be a vegetarian (and strongly leaning toward it).

That person was exaggerating

It'll be the same pretty much everywhere. The biggest problem is that you'll be going to law school with a bunch of law students. That'll probably be their biggest character flaw, not their political beliefs or their desire to uphold the cult of domesticity or whatever.

ticklemesilly
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby ticklemesilly » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:36 pm

BigZuck wrote:
ticklemesilly wrote:Anyone know what the culture is like at Duke vs Michigan? A Georgetown lawyer I was interviewing with scared me a little when she said she did not fit in with the people at the admitted students week at Duke. She said the girls were all wearing pearls and were perfect little southern belles. I'm sure this is an exasperation but I started to become worried because I know that alumni contacts are very important in law school and I'm terrified of not fitting in.

Can anyone shed some light on the culture of these two schools? I'm a feminist (NOT A MAN HATER, totally not the same thing), atheist, very liberal (but not offensive about it), and used to be a vegetarian (and strongly leaning toward it).

That person was exaggerating

It'll be the same pretty much everywhere. The biggest problem is that you'll be going to law school with a bunch of law students. That'll probably be their biggest character flaw, not their political beliefs or their desire to uphold the cult of domesticity or whatever.


Yeah I started laughing when I realized I wrote "exasperation" rather than exaggeration in my original post. I also think it's an exaggeration but I am wondering if me strong West Coast mentality will alienate me. I hopefully harbor no prejudices against others but I'm still nervous about fitting in.

BigZuck
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby BigZuck » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:49 pm

ticklemesilly wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
ticklemesilly wrote:Anyone know what the culture is like at Duke vs Michigan? A Georgetown lawyer I was interviewing with scared me a little when she said she did not fit in with the people at the admitted students week at Duke. She said the girls were all wearing pearls and were perfect little southern belles. I'm sure this is an exasperation but I started to become worried because I know that alumni contacts are very important in law school and I'm terrified of not fitting in.

Can anyone shed some light on the culture of these two schools? I'm a feminist (NOT A MAN HATER, totally not the same thing), atheist, very liberal (but not offensive about it), and used to be a vegetarian (and strongly leaning toward it).

That person was exaggerating

It'll be the same pretty much everywhere. The biggest problem is that you'll be going to law school with a bunch of law students. That'll probably be their biggest character flaw, not their political beliefs or their desire to uphold the cult of domesticity or whatever.


Yeah I started laughing when I realized I wrote "exasperation" rather than exaggeration in my original post. I also think it's an exaggeration but I am wondering if me strong West Coast mentality will alienate me. I hopefully harbor no prejudices against others but I'm still nervous about fitting in.

It won't, you'll be 100% fine

Honestly, if you have a problem with other people and feel alienated it would almost certainly be because you're judgmental of their politics or meat eaterdom or whatever, not because they are judging you. And if you really can't stand the carnivorous God-fearing Republicans you meet for whatever reason there will be plenty of people whose interests/outlook aligns with yours. Law school is filled with all kinds, especially in 2015.

I don't go to Duke but I did go to their ASW and I go to law school in TX now and "the south" (at least through the law school lens) is nowhere near as scary as people on the west coast assume it is.

ticklemesilly
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Re: Pls Help Choose/Negotiate Michigan (75K) or Duke (60K)

Postby ticklemesilly » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:05 pm

I'm sure you're right Big Zuck. I think my worries are unfounded but in the US I've always lived on the West Coast so I'm not quite sure what to expect.

By the way, can't judge meat eaters as I'm eating chicken right now =)




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