Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

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AT9
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby AT9 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:32 pm

Yanky91 wrote:
AT9 wrote:In case any of you guys are still agonizing over the employment stats (like me), I thought it would be helpful to take a bigger-picture view by looking at Wake's performance over the past 5 years vs. schools who will be offering the most competition in nearby states:

In order, here are the 5-year averages of the percentage of graduates in long-term, full-time, bar-passage-required, non-school-funded jobs:

Georgia: 72%
North Carolina: 71%
Wake Forest/George Washington/Tennessee: 68%
South Carolina: 67%
Emory: 66%
William & Mary: 64%
Richmond: 61%*
Washington & Lee: 58%
George Mason: 54%

This doesn't answer all my concerns, but it shows that in the long-term, Wake is still among the better choices in the region. I applied to and was accepted at 6 of these schools, and Wake was the cheapest because of the $ they throw out. Hope this serves as some comfort for those of you matriculating this fall :)


How did you calculate the percentages?


I just used LST. You can pretty easily switch between years and look at the percentage of grads working in the bar passage required, long-term, full-time jobs. I just took that number, subtracted the full-time, "long-term" school funded jobs, and averaged the years 5 years of 2009-2013.

Baby_Got_Feuerbach
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby Baby_Got_Feuerbach » Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:16 pm

Has anyone who has visited Winston-Salem and the Wake Forest campus + surrounding area thought they could get away without a car?

HRomanus
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby HRomanus » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:26 pm

AT9 wrote:
Yanky91 wrote:
AT9 wrote:In case any of you guys are still agonizing over the employment stats (like me), I thought it would be helpful to take a bigger-picture view by looking at Wake's performance over the past 5 years vs. schools who will be offering the most competition in nearby states:

In order, here are the 5-year averages of the percentage of graduates in long-term, full-time, bar-passage-required, non-school-funded jobs:

Georgia: 72%
North Carolina: 71%
Wake Forest/George Washington/Tennessee: 68%
South Carolina: 67%
Emory: 66%
William & Mary: 64%
Richmond: 61%*
Washington & Lee: 58%
George Mason: 54%

This doesn't answer all my concerns, but it shows that in the long-term, Wake is still among the better choices in the region. I applied to and was accepted at 6 of these schools, and Wake was the cheapest because of the $ they throw out. Hope this serves as some comfort for those of you matriculating this fall :)


How did you calculate the percentages?


I just used LST. You can pretty easily switch between years and look at the percentage of grads working in the bar passage required, long-term, full-time jobs. I just took that number, subtracted the full-time, "long-term" school funded jobs, and averaged the years 5 years of 2009-2013.


These statistics are fairly misleading for someone who doesn't utilize LST often. Can you compare the employment outcomes of a South Carolina grad working at a 3 attorney firm in Abbeville, South Carolina to an Emory grad working in a 200 person firm in Atlanta? Hell no. I also don't think you should exclude school funded positions, but that's another debate entirely.

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cricketlove00
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby cricketlove00 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:31 pm

HRomanus wrote:
AT9 wrote:
Yanky91 wrote:
AT9 wrote:In case any of you guys are still agonizing over the employment stats (like me), I thought it would be helpful to take a bigger-picture view by looking at Wake's performance over the past 5 years vs. schools who will be offering the most competition in nearby states:

In order, here are the 5-year averages of the percentage of graduates in long-term, full-time, bar-passage-required, non-school-funded jobs:

Georgia: 72%
North Carolina: 71%
Wake Forest/George Washington/Tennessee: 68%
South Carolina: 67%
Emory: 66%
William & Mary: 64%
Richmond: 61%*
Washington & Lee: 58%
George Mason: 54%

This doesn't answer all my concerns, but it shows that in the long-term, Wake is still among the better choices in the region. I applied to and was accepted at 6 of these schools, and Wake was the cheapest because of the $ they throw out. Hope this serves as some comfort for those of you matriculating this fall :)


How did you calculate the percentages?


I just used LST. You can pretty easily switch between years and look at the percentage of grads working in the bar passage required, long-term, full-time jobs. I just took that number, subtracted the full-time, "long-term" school funded jobs, and averaged the years 5 years of 2009-2013.


These statistics are fairly misleading for someone who doesn't utilize LST often. Can you compare the employment outcomes of a South Carolina grad working at a 3 attorney firm in Abbeville, South Carolina to an Emory grad working in a 200 person firm in Atlanta? Hell no. I also don't think you should exclude school funded positions, but that's another debate entirely.


I don't think anyone took it in the way you seem to be implying. We are all worried about getting a job - any bar passage required, long term, full time job - after Wake's numbers came out. I literally think my posting these numbers AT9 wanted to lessen the terrifying idea of unemployment. I'm also not sure that many of us are expecting to work in a 200+ attorney firm in Atlanta.

And school funded positions are misleading. Would I specifically have a problem obtaining a school funded job? Well it would depend on the job, I guess, but the fact that schools use those positions to enhance their aba report and their overall percentage of those employed makes things tricky. I appreciate that those weren't included.

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AT9
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby AT9 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:42 pm

HRomanus wrote:
AT9 wrote:
Yanky91 wrote:
AT9 wrote:In case any of you guys are still agonizing over the employment stats (like me), I thought it would be helpful to take a bigger-picture view by looking at Wake's performance over the past 5 years vs. schools who will be offering the most competition in nearby states:

In order, here are the 5-year averages of the percentage of graduates in long-term, full-time, bar-passage-required, non-school-funded jobs:

Georgia: 72%
North Carolina: 71%
Wake Forest/George Washington/Tennessee: 68%
South Carolina: 67%
Emory: 66%
William & Mary: 64%
Richmond: 61%*
Washington & Lee: 58%
George Mason: 54%

This doesn't answer all my concerns, but it shows that in the long-term, Wake is still among the better choices in the region. I applied to and was accepted at 6 of these schools, and Wake was the cheapest because of the $ they throw out. Hope this serves as some comfort for those of you matriculating this fall :)


How did you calculate the percentages?


I just used LST. You can pretty easily switch between years and look at the percentage of grads working in the bar passage required, long-term, full-time jobs. I just took that number, subtracted the full-time, "long-term" school funded jobs, and averaged the years 5 years of 2009-2013.


These statistics are fairly misleading for someone who doesn't utilize LST often. Can you compare the employment outcomes of a South Carolina grad working at a 3 attorney firm in Abbeville, South Carolina to an Emory grad working in a 200 person firm in Atlanta? Hell no. I also don't think you should exclude school funded positions, but that's another debate entirely.


Right, I'm not saying South Carolina is better than Emory. Nor am I trying to mislead anyone. I was concerned with the roughly 10% drop in FT, LT bar passage required jobs in 2013 for Wake. I wanted to put that into perspective by looking at a longer-term picture in comparison with its peers, which, in combination with total COA, is the most important statistic for lawyer hopefuls.

The only two schools with a significant number of school funded jobs were W&M and Emory. At W&M, those jobs pay about $20K...roughly half of what the non-school-funded lower end jobs pay. It's also roughly 60% of what I make as a 2nd year paralegal in a tiny market. If I knew how many of those translated into decent jobs, I'd include them. But those are hardly desirable outcomes or on par with an independent full-time lawyer job. Better than unemployment, but that's about it.

Edit: scooped by cricketlove. Exactly my point.
Edit #2: GWU also had a ton of school funded jobs.

HRomanus
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby HRomanus » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:51 pm

cricketlove00 wrote:
HRomanus wrote:These statistics are fairly misleading for someone who doesn't utilize LST often. Can you compare the employment outcomes of a South Carolina grad working at a 3 attorney firm in Abbeville, South Carolina to an Emory grad working in a 200 person firm in Atlanta? Hell no. I also don't think you should exclude school funded positions, but that's another debate entirely.


I don't think anyone took it in the way you seem to be implying. We are all worried about getting a job - any bar passage required, long term, full time job - after Wake's numbers came out. I literally think my posting these numbers AT9 wanted to lessen the terrifying idea of unemployment. I'm also not sure that many of us are expecting to work in a 200+ attorney firm in Atlanta.

And school funded positions are misleading. Would I specifically have a problem obtaining a school funded job? Well it would depend on the job, I guess, but the fact that schools use those positions to enhance their aba report and their overall percentage of those employed makes things tricky. I appreciate that those weren't included.


My concern with Wake is its instability in employment outcomes. Why does 2013 have nearly the same employment numbers (+2%) as 2011, the absolute nadir of the legal employment? For comparrison, Emory increased its employment numbers by 15% since 2011.

Emory's school-funded positions are actually a special program where students receive a stipend of $1,800 per month to work in PI positions until they can find a position (typically where they were working while receiving the stipend). Does that pay suck? YES. It's less than half what I make a year out of UG. But the school sells it as an effective and temporary solution to get students into these types of jobs.

EDIT: Glad to see we're all rolling deep on TLS on a Saturday night.

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AT9
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby AT9 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:04 am

HRomanus wrote:
cricketlove00 wrote:
HRomanus wrote:These statistics are fairly misleading for someone who doesn't utilize LST often. Can you compare the employment outcomes of a South Carolina grad working at a 3 attorney firm in Abbeville, South Carolina to an Emory grad working in a 200 person firm in Atlanta? Hell no. I also don't think you should exclude school funded positions, but that's another debate entirely.


I don't think anyone took it in the way you seem to be implying. We are all worried about getting a job - any bar passage required, long term, full time job - after Wake's numbers came out. I literally think my posting these numbers AT9 wanted to lessen the terrifying idea of unemployment. I'm also not sure that many of us are expecting to work in a 200+ attorney firm in Atlanta.

And school funded positions are misleading. Would I specifically have a problem obtaining a school funded job? Well it would depend on the job, I guess, but the fact that schools use those positions to enhance their aba report and their overall percentage of those employed makes things tricky. I appreciate that those weren't included.


My concern with Wake is its instability in employment outcomes. Why does 2013 have nearly the same employment numbers (+2%) as 2011, the absolute nadir of the legal employment? For comparrison, Emory increased its employment numbers by 15% since 2011.

Emory's school-funded positions are actually a special program where students receive a stipend of $1,800 per month to work in PI positions until they can find a position (typically where they were working while receiving the stipend). Does that pay suck? YES. It's less than half what I make a year out of UG. But the school sells it as an effective and temporary solution to get students into these types of jobs.

EDIT: Glad to see we're all rolling deep on TLS on a Saturday night.


That's what I noticed as well. UNC and Wake have similar averages, but Wake is a roller coaster and UNC is within about 5% of its average every year. I wish I knew why.

What else is there to do on a Saturday night? :lol:

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cricketlove00
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby cricketlove00 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:16 am

GWU also has an insanely large class.

Look, I'm worried too. I think we all are. Even if I was going to a T-14 I'd be worried. The instability is a little strange, but there's so many variables it's hard to pinpoint exactly why. Is it just Wake's fault? No. Can we chock it up to the legal market? Not always. Is it dependent on graduating class? Not solely. So what how do we even interpret the instability? It's really tough to do.

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shaynislegend
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby shaynislegend » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:55 pm

I would assume UNC appears to be more "stable" because the majority of UNC law grads are from NC. I would assume they would want to stay in NC as well, so they aren't going to be set back by applying for jobs while in school and taking interviews while studying for the bar, which seems far more likely at Wake. Most Wake Law students don't come from NC and it appears many either take the bar in another state or don't have many meaningful connections in the larger NC markets. Sure 9 months is a long time to not have a job, but I think since a large number of WFU students are looking to go back to their original markets this causes instability (but you could also say it makes the degree portable).

legalbeagle84
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby legalbeagle84 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:32 pm

Baby_Got_Feuerbach wrote:Has anyone who has visited Winston-Salem and the Wake Forest campus + surrounding area thought they could get away without a car?


yes and no...

yes if you live in one of the apartment complexes that has the shuttle to school (especially the shuttle that drops you right on the corner by the law school). You will also have to rely on the shuttle to go down town. And you will have to become friends with someone who has a car for grocery shopping type stuff.

No if you live off the shuttle line or not immediately around the school and cannot find anyone to go shopping with. From what I remember, there were no food stores right around the school.

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zippernicus
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby zippernicus » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:39 pm

legalbeagle84 wrote:
Baby_Got_Feuerbach wrote:Has anyone who has visited Winston-Salem and the Wake Forest campus + surrounding area thought they could get away without a car?


yes and no...

yes if you live in one of the apartment complexes that has the shuttle to school (especially the shuttle that drops you right on the corner by the law school). You will also have to rely on the shuttle to go down town. And you will have to become friends with someone who has a car for grocery shopping type stuff.

No if you live off the shuttle line or not immediately around the school and cannot find anyone to go shopping with. From what I remember, there were no food stores right around the school.


yea it would be fairly challenging, though not impossible. that being said, i wouldnt want to do it.

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WakeLawAdmDean
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby WakeLawAdmDean » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:27 pm

Greetings TLSers~

I generally stay very far away from these type of speculative, half-cocked, not entirely informed exchanges on the quality of a school based on one specific survey or point of information. For the candidates that have posed specific questions regarding employment statistics we've referred them to the Office of Professional and Career Development (OPCD). I will give my personal speculative, somewhat half-cocked, and probably not entirely informed perspective. Take it for what you will.

It is a tough job market. Where a school started (what resources and support they offer) in all this makes a big difference in regard to how they are doing now. Ranking doesn't have as much impact on employment as one might think, especially in the short term. Overall is it better to be ranked higher than lower? Sure. Still employment success at the institutional level is difficult to measure in ways that are truly meaningful for any individual candidate.

Further it ebbs and flows at institutions and in the marketplace. Schools do have better years than others and none of us will probably be able to point to one specific thing that "caused" the numbers to slip. Some years students are more motivated than others - more willing to take risks or are more nimble with their own goals. As with most NC schools we saw a dip in the bar passage last summer. Of course, this impacted the employability of some of our graduates. At Wake Forest we're also dealing with a smaller class than UNC or Emory and thus a couple more people unemployed for whatever reason has a greater impact on the big picture.

The fact is that all of these schools you are discussing have similar resources and networks. They are all respected schools. Almost every little bit of your ability to succeed in this job market at any of these schools is going to be about how you perform. You won't get some magic bump by going to UNC or Emory over Wake Forest (or the other way around). That being said most of all of these graduates will be fine in the long term. Nine months seems like a long time but regardless of which of these schools you choose you may have to wait and be flexible and approach your career in a thoughtful and creative way to reach to realize your own personal and professional goals. Ten years later nine months won't seem like a long time if you took the time to find the right job for you.

Things haven't fallen apart at Wake Forest because our employment stats are a little down this year and these other schools you're comparing us to haven't figured out something we haven't. There are so many factors that impact the overall success of our OPCD efforts many of which are not under the control of Wake Forest. Nonetheless Wake Forest has engaged it's alumni in the employment process and are working with our Board to be innovative in building even stronger and more supportive networks for our students. Further we've implemented a one hour first year course (pass/fail) that provides our students with direct resources and training to prepare them for a professional market that may not be clamoring for new lawyers. These initiatives were not available in their current state to the graduating class whose employment statistics you are discussing.

Wake Forest is committed to helping every single student realize their professional goals. We offer a strong academic program in a supportive environment. Our network of alumni are supportive and loyal. We have dedicated professionals in place to assist and counsel you in your search. If you otherwise feel Wake Forest is the right place for you and you are willing to work hard to realize realistic goals, you will have as much opportunity to do that at Wake Forest as any of the schools I've seen us compared to in this discussion.

Okay. That is my admittedly completely biased two cents. Feel free to lambaste me and point out that I am a paid mouthpiece for the university and law school. Still I think all this speculation and positioning is mostly not particularly well informed and doesn't have the perspective of someone who has been working in higher education for the time I have. At the end of the day if you don't believe in the value of the degree or Wake Forest, then you shouldn't pursue a law degree and especially not at Wake. There are lots of options and we want you to appreciate the value of the education you receive.

Feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or would like to talk.

Warm regards,
Jay Shively
Wake Forest Law
shivelrj@wfu.edu
(336) 758-5705 direct
@jayshively
http://www.law.wfu.edu

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nickpapagiorgio
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby nickpapagiorgio » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:17 pm

WakeLawAdmDean wrote:...


Excellent points. Thanks for taking the time to join in this discussion.

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cricketlove00
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby cricketlove00 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:49 pm

nickpapagiorgio wrote:
WakeLawAdmDean wrote:...


Excellent points. Thanks for taking the time to join in this discussion.


Yes thank you. Very much appreciated. This is, in my eyes, one of the best parts about Wake. The faculty is very committed to communicating with their students, prospective and current.
Last edited by cricketlove00 on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HRomanus
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby HRomanus » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:16 pm

WakeLawAdmDean wrote:Greetings TLSers~

I generally stay very far away from these type of speculative, half-cocked, not entirely informed exchanges on the quality of a school based on one specific survey or point of information. For the candidates that have posed specific questions regarding employment statistics we've referred them to the Office of Professional and Career Development (OPCD). I will give my personal speculative, somewhat half-cocked, and probably not entirely informed perspective. Take it for what you will.

It is a tough job market. Where a school started (what resources and support they offer) in all this makes a big difference in regard to how they are doing now. Ranking doesn't have as much impact on employment as one might think, especially in the short term. Overall is it better to be ranked higher than lower? Sure. Still employment success at the institutional level is difficult to measure in ways that are truly meaningful for any individual candidate.

Further it ebbs and flows at institutions and in the marketplace. Schools do have better years than others and none of us will probably be able to point to one specific thing that "caused" the numbers to slip. Some years students are more motivated than others - more willing to take risks or are more nimble with their own goals. As with most NC schools we saw a dip in the bar passage last summer. Of course, this impacted the employability of some of our graduates. At Wake Forest we're also dealing with a smaller class than UNC or Emory and thus a couple more people unemployed for whatever reason has a greater impact on the big picture.

The fact is that all of these schools you are discussing have similar resources and networks. They are all respected schools. Almost every little bit of your ability to succeed in this job market at any of these schools is going to be about how you perform. You won't get some magic bump by going to UNC or Emory over Wake Forest (or the other way around). That being said most of all of these graduates will be fine in the long term. Nine months seems like a long time but regardless of which of these schools you choose you may have to wait and be flexible and approach your career in a thoughtful and creative way to reach to realize your own personal and professional goals. Ten years later nine months won't seem like a long time if you took the time to find the right job for you.

Things haven't fallen apart at Wake Forest because our employment stats are a little down this year and these other schools you're comparing us to haven't figured out something we haven't. There are so many factors that impact the overall success of our OPCD efforts many of which are not under the control of Wake Forest. Nonetheless Wake Forest has engaged it's alumni in the employment process and are working with our Board to be innovative in building even stronger and more supportive networks for our students. Further we've implemented a one hour first year course (pass/fail) that provides our students with direct resources and training to prepare them for a professional market that may not be clamoring for new lawyers. These initiatives were not available in their current state to the graduating class whose employment statistics you are discussing.

Wake Forest is committed to helping every single student realize their professional goals. We offer a strong academic program in a supportive environment. Our network of alumni are supportive and loyal. We have dedicated professionals in place to assist and counsel you in your search. If you otherwise feel Wake Forest is the right place for you and you are willing to work hard to realize realistic goals, you will have as much opportunity to do that at Wake Forest as any of the schools I've seen us compared to in this discussion.

Okay. That is my admittedly completely biased two cents. Feel free to lambaste me and point out that I am a paid mouthpiece for the university and law school. Still I think all this speculation and positioning is mostly not particularly well informed and doesn't have the perspective of someone who has been working in higher education for the time I have. At the end of the day if you don't believe in the value of the degree or Wake Forest, then you shouldn't pursue a law degree and especially not at Wake. There are lots of options and we want you to appreciate the value of the education you receive.

Feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or would like to talk.

Warm regards,
Jay Shively
Wake Forest Law
shivelrj@wfu.edu
(336) 758-5705 direct
@jayshively
http://www.law.wfu.edu


Dean Shively, thank you for your insights on and engagement with us on this topic! It really speaks volumes about the quality of the Wake Forest Law staff.

3putt
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby 3putt » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:40 pm

Dean Shively,

Love all your posts. I'll be on campus this Saturday. I'm sure it is beautiful this time of year.

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AT9
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby AT9 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:01 pm

WakeLawAdmDean wrote:Greetings TLSers~

I generally stay very far away from these type of speculative, half-cocked, not entirely informed exchanges on the quality of a school based on one specific survey or point of information. For the candidates that have posed specific questions regarding employment statistics we've referred them to the Office of Professional and Career Development (OPCD). I will give my personal speculative, somewhat half-cocked, and probably not entirely informed perspective. Take it for what you will.

It is a tough job market. Where a school started (what resources and support they offer) in all this makes a big difference in regard to how they are doing now. Ranking doesn't have as much impact on employment as one might think, especially in the short term. Overall is it better to be ranked higher than lower? Sure. Still employment success at the institutional level is difficult to measure in ways that are truly meaningful for any individual candidate.

Further it ebbs and flows at institutions and in the marketplace. Schools do have better years than others and none of us will probably be able to point to one specific thing that "caused" the numbers to slip. Some years students are more motivated than others - more willing to take risks or are more nimble with their own goals. As with most NC schools we saw a dip in the bar passage last summer. Of course, this impacted the employability of some of our graduates. At Wake Forest we're also dealing with a smaller class than UNC or Emory and thus a couple more people unemployed for whatever reason has a greater impact on the big picture.

The fact is that all of these schools you are discussing have similar resources and networks. They are all respected schools. Almost every little bit of your ability to succeed in this job market at any of these schools is going to be about how you perform. You won't get some magic bump by going to UNC or Emory over Wake Forest (or the other way around). That being said most of all of these graduates will be fine in the long term. Nine months seems like a long time but regardless of which of these schools you choose you may have to wait and be flexible and approach your career in a thoughtful and creative way to reach to realize your own personal and professional goals. Ten years later nine months won't seem like a long time if you took the time to find the right job for you.

Things haven't fallen apart at Wake Forest because our employment stats are a little down this year and these other schools you're comparing us to haven't figured out something we haven't. There are so many factors that impact the overall success of our OPCD efforts many of which are not under the control of Wake Forest. Nonetheless Wake Forest has engaged it's alumni in the employment process and are working with our Board to be innovative in building even stronger and more supportive networks for our students. Further we've implemented a one hour first year course (pass/fail) that provides our students with direct resources and training to prepare them for a professional market that may not be clamoring for new lawyers. These initiatives were not available in their current state to the graduating class whose employment statistics you are discussing.

Wake Forest is committed to helping every single student realize their professional goals. We offer a strong academic program in a supportive environment. Our network of alumni are supportive and loyal. We have dedicated professionals in place to assist and counsel you in your search. If you otherwise feel Wake Forest is the right place for you and you are willing to work hard to realize realistic goals, you will have as much opportunity to do that at Wake Forest as any of the schools I've seen us compared to in this discussion.

Okay. That is my admittedly completely biased two cents. Feel free to lambaste me and point out that I am a paid mouthpiece for the university and law school. Still I think all this speculation and positioning is mostly not particularly well informed and doesn't have the perspective of someone who has been working in higher education for the time I have. At the end of the day if you don't believe in the value of the degree or Wake Forest, then you shouldn't pursue a law degree and especially not at Wake. There are lots of options and we want you to appreciate the value of the education you receive.

Feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or would like to talk.

Warm regards,
Jay Shively
Wake Forest Law
shivelrj@wfu.edu
(336) 758-5705 direct
@jayshively
http://www.law.wfu.edu


Psh, you're just a paid mouthpiece for the university and law school!

But really, thank you for chiming in again. I'm impressed with several things about Wake, but mostly with the directness and honesty of those in the administration and career services throughout the whole process. I think many on this forum would take the lack of clear answers as a sign of something deceptive, but I think your assumptions are probably correct (even if unsatisfying to our nervous, hyper-analytical minds). The data changes from year to year and there isn't always a discernible reason. I/we just need to come to terms with that. My comparison above was simply to show that, despite those yearly fluctuations, the overall picture is comparatively good.

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Eaturgreenz
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby Eaturgreenz » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:36 pm

Just a side note: I don't know where you learned math or where you found the stats for employment 5 years ago (not listed on the official ABA report), but Wake's employment (non-school funded) is 61% for the last 3 years...

2012: 89/158
2013:107/156
2014: 93/159

289/473 = .610994

UNC: 68%

Also, I would caution against not including students employed by the school, because from what I've heard, virtually all stay in that job and simply are paid by a non-school employer after the first year.

I'm not arguing for or against the meaning of these numbers, but I will caution people not to believe everything they read on a forum like this...

Yanky91
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby Yanky91 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:55 pm

Eaturgreenz wrote:Just a side note: I don't know where you learned math or where you found the stats for employment 5 years ago (not listed on the official ABA report), but Wake's employment (non-school funded) is 61% for the last 3 years...

2012: 89/158
2013:107/156
2014: 93/159

289/473 = .610994

UNC: 68%

Also, I would caution against not including students employed by the school, because from what I've heard, virtually all stay in that job and simply are paid by a non-school employer after the first year.

I'm not arguing for or against the meaning of these numbers, but I will caution people not to believe everything they read on a forum like this...


your years are off by a year. By 2014 you mean 2013 and so on because the 2014 ABA disclosures are not out yet.

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AT9
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby AT9 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:59 pm

Eaturgreenz wrote:Just a side note: I don't know where you learned math or where you found the stats for employment 5 years ago (not listed on the official ABA report), but Wake's employment (non-school funded) is 61% for the last 3 years...

2012: 89/158
2013:107/156
2014: 93/159

289/473 = .610994

UNC: 68%

Also, I would caution against not including students employed by the school, because from what I've heard, virtually all stay in that job and simply are paid by a non-school employer after the first year.

I'm not arguing for or against the meaning of these numbers, but I will caution people not to believe everything they read on a forum like this...


As I stated earlier, all numbers are from LST including 2009/2010. I understand that these school funded jobs sometimes lead to "real" jobs, but there's no reliable data I know of to quantify it. Also as I stated earlier, for example, William & Mary's school funded jobs pay very, very little (as learned directly from the source, not this forum). A limited duration job making $20-$25k isn't anywhere near the same level of an open-ended job making $40/45k+.

I don't fault the schools - it's better that than nothing. But, for my personal evaluation, I don't like lumping them in the same category as the "real" jobs for the reasons above. School funded jobs are something to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis when comparing schools, IMO.

chizzy
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby chizzy » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:13 am

Anyone else on the waitlist? I heard they have received a lot of deposits and so they won't be able to get to us wait listers till after the 2nd deposit :(

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cricketlove00
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby cricketlove00 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:24 am

chizzy wrote:Anyone else on the waitlist? I heard they have received a lot of deposits and so they won't be able to get to us wait listers till after the 2nd deposit :(


Where did you hear that they've had a lot of deposits?

chizzy
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby chizzy » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:26 am

cricketlove00 wrote:
chizzy wrote:Anyone else on the waitlist? I heard they have received a lot of deposits and so they won't be able to get to us wait listers till after the 2nd deposit :(


Where did you hear that they've had a lot of deposits?


I called their office this morning

HRomanus
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby HRomanus » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:28 am

AT9 wrote:Psh, you're just a paid mouthpiece for the university and law school!

But really, thank you for chiming in again. I'm impressed with several things about Wake, but mostly with the directness and honesty of those in the administration and career services throughout the whole process. I think many on this forum would take the lack of clear answers as a sign of something deceptive, but I think your assumptions are probably correct (even if unsatisfying to our nervous, hyper-analytical minds). The data changes from year to year and there isn't always a discernible reason. I/we just need to come to terms with that. My comparison above was simply to show that, despite those yearly fluctuations, the overall picture is comparatively good.


+1

We are probably a bad mix of uptight 0Ls equipped with limited raw data (LST), limited perspective, and a fair amount of free time to overspeculate. Still, I am excited that we can have substantive discussions about this and I am encouraged that we are aware of and interested in employment outcomes even as prospective students. I am very impressed by Dean Shively's comments and willingness to engage us on this topic.

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cricketlove00
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Re: Wake Forest c/o 2017 (2013-2014)

Postby cricketlove00 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:32 am

chizzy wrote:
cricketlove00 wrote:
chizzy wrote:Anyone else on the waitlist? I heard they have received a lot of deposits and so they won't be able to get to us wait listers till after the 2nd deposit :(


Where did you hear that they've had a lot of deposits?


I called their office this morning


Thanks for the info :) Good luck to you on the WL.

HRomanus wrote:We are probably a bad mix of uptight 0Ls equipped with limited raw data (LST), limited perspective, and a fair amount of free time to overspeculate. Still, I am excited that we can have substantive discussions about this and I am encouraged that we are aware of and interested in employment outcomes even as prospective students. I am very impressed by Dean Shively's comments and willingness to engage us on this topic.


Of course we are uptight. This law school shit is so stressful it makes us that way... and the anxiety of TLS alone only quantifies it! :) I will say that Dean Shively, as well as everyone else I've talked to at Wake, has been so honest and open regarding every question I've had. It's pretty refreshing considering the horror stories you hear from other schools.




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