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cotiger
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby cotiger » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:36 pm

lawschool22 wrote:I think they just mean it's easier to get into HLS without proving to Harvard that you want to go there. Whereas Penn seems to (or it has become self-fulfilling) prefer that Why Penn or some other demonstration of interest. It makes sense intuitively that HLS would be less worried about high-numbered applicants matriculating. I agree that the data you have posted/synthesized does show a different pattern than UVA, but we can't, from that data, make a definitive statement about YP. That's because we don't know which of those 29/31 applicants wrote a Why Penn or otherwise demonstrated interest to Penn. Plus that data ignores waitlists, and I think that's what most people claiming YP are afraid of. Not that they won't, ultimately be accepted if they show interest, but that they will be WL'd as opposed to being outright accepted. Whereas at HLS, the waitlist isn't used in that way.


Nope. That includes waitlists in the rejection category. Above both 75ths had 29 acceptances and 2 waitlists.

Just because Penn might value a Why Penn heavily, that doesn't mean that it's yield protection. Think about it this way, if they let in the same percentage of 75+ LSAT and 25-50 GPA that Harvard did, they would way oversubscribe their class. They just can't admit that many people and so have to make distinctions in some way. They've seemingly decided that a good Why Penn essay makes the difference between marginal candidates, which seems reasonable to me (and coincidentally might improve their yield a bit, though that's different from YP).

But at no point do I see any evidence that they are rejecting anyone because their numbers are "too high," which is what YP would be. At every step, those with better numbers have a better chance at admission, unlike at UVA.

ETA: If high numbers candidates tended to write Why X statements at Penn but not at UVA, then that would muddy the waters a bit. But I don't know why that would be the case, and at best it would just add some uncertainty to the system rather than provide any positive evidence for Penn YP.

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lawschool22
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby lawschool22 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:44 pm

cotiger wrote:
lawschool22 wrote:I think they just mean it's easier to get into HLS without proving to Harvard that you want to go there. Whereas Penn seems to (or it has become self-fulfilling) prefer that Why Penn or some other demonstration of interest. It makes sense intuitively that HLS would be less worried about high-numbered applicants matriculating. I agree that the data you have posted/synthesized does show a different pattern than UVA, but we can't, from that data, make a definitive statement about YP. That's because we don't know which of those 29/31 applicants wrote a Why Penn or otherwise demonstrated interest to Penn. Plus that data ignores waitlists, and I think that's what most people claiming YP are afraid of. Not that they won't, ultimately be accepted if they show interest, but that they will be WL'd as opposed to being outright accepted. Whereas at HLS, the waitlist isn't used in that way.


Nope. That includes waitlists in the rejection category. Above both 75ths had 29 acceptances and 2 waitlists.

Just because Penn might value a Why Penn heavily, that doesn't mean that it's yield protection. Think about it this way, if they let in the same percentage of 75+ LSAT and 25-50 GPA that Harvard did, they would way oversubscribe their class. They just can't admit that many people and so have to make distinctions in some way. They've seemingly decided that a good Why Penn essay makes the difference between marginal candidates, which seems reasonable to me (and coincidentally might improve their yield a bit, though that's different from YP).

But at no point do I see any evidence that they are rejecting anyone because their numbers are "too high," which is what YP would be. At every step, those with better numbers have a better chance at admission, unlike at UVA.

ETA: If high numbers candidates tended to write Why X statements at Penn but not at UVA, then that would muddy the waters a bit. But I don't know why that would be the case, and at best it would just add some uncertainty to the system rather than provide any positive evidence for Penn YP.


Ah didn't know those excluded WL. I haven't read your thread for a bit. That definitely changes things. I agree with you that it's unlikely people are writing Why Penn essay's in such greater numbers than Why UVA essay so as to create the difference you see in those two matrices.

So the "appearance" of YP is likely primarily a function of Penn's small class size compared to that of HLS, and potentially a slightly higher weight given to GPA than is given at CLS and NYU, as well as Penn's use of the Why Penn as a tie-breaker in certain instances.

At the end of the day the advice doesn't change. You should probably do the Why Penn, but YP doesn't appear to be the reason for the somewhat higher number of "good numbers" rejections than you see at HLS.

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cotiger
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby cotiger » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:48 pm

lawschool22 wrote:So the "appearance" of YP is likely primarily a function of Penn's small class size compared to that of HLS, and potentially a slightly higher weight given to GPA than is given at CLS and NYU, as well as Penn's use of the Why Penn as a tie-breaker in certain instances.

At the end of the day the advice doesn't change. You should probably do the Why Penn, but YP doesn't appear to be the reason for the somewhat higher number of "good numbers" rejections than you see at HLS.


Exactly. And at the end of the day, WL still sucks. It's just not due to the scheming of some nefarious adcomm.

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TheMostDangerousLG
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby TheMostDangerousLG » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:09 pm

cotiger wrote:Just because Penn might value a Why Penn heavily, that doesn't mean that it's yield protection. Think about it this way, if they let in the same percentage of 75+ LSAT and 25-50 GPA that Harvard did, they would way oversubscribe their class. They just can't admit that many people and so have to make distinctions in some way. They've seemingly decided that a good Why Penn essay makes the difference between marginal candidates, which seems reasonable to me (and coincidentally might improve their yield a bit, though that's different from YP).


But the whole point of YP (if it does exist) is to prevent us from being able to falsify this statement. We can't say whether Penn would or would not oversubscribe their class if they let in the same number of people with those numbers as Harvard, because they don't. We've never gotten to see what would actually happen. We have just as much reason to believe that if they let in the same number of people with those scores as Harvard, a large number of those people would matriculate elsewhere and their yield rate would be decimated.

04102014
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby 04102014 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:29 pm

Stop ruining this thread.

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jk148706
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby jk148706 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:34 pm

ohpobrecito wrote:Stop ruining this thread.


Yes this so much this

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chneyo
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby chneyo » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:39 pm

...
Last edited by chneyo on Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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cotiger
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby cotiger » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:48 pm

ohpobrecito wrote:Stop ruining this thread.


...Sorry?

How terrible to try to figure out why someone might or might not get waitlisted on the Penn applicants thread :roll:

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ftbchamp231
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby ftbchamp231 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:50 pm

chneyo wrote:All of this talk about YP makes me think of a few individuals I know with very high GPAs and LSATs that are also incredibly dull people. I mean, perhaps we oversubscribe to the numbers game a bit in our speculations. I don't know anyone who was wait-listed/dinged personally (hell, I very well may be next), and I'm not saying anything specifically about them, but might we be overlooking the "holistic approach" Penn proclaims they utilize in making admission decisions? Yes, better numbers increase one's chances. But high numbers do not and should not absolutely necessitate admission to any of these schools. Even Yale accepted 10 people last year that had between 155 and 164 LSAT scores. They, thus, turned down at least 10 people with presumably better numbers to make space (Yale certainly has no shortage of 175+ applicants, and could probably fill their class with them).

Just thinking out loud here.


I like to think they look at everything. They do need to produce good lawyers at the end of the day or firms will stop hiring from Penn and that doesn't come from being good at taking tests. I row and I like to think that waking up at 5am and sitting on the ergs for hours and hours counts for something to these people.

I wonder if admissions people look at these forums to see (and laugh at) what we say.

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yossarian
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby yossarian » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:04 pm

I didn't write a why penn because it's a way better school than I will likely get into. Thinking was that they know I want them primarily for excellent placement, faculty, network, et al.

Do you think, if I happen to win the lottery and end up being a special snowflake they like for softs/holistically, that my no why penn is going to screw me and they'll choose some other 25-50, <25?

If so, submit why penn now? Or save for the wait list if god happens to smile upon me?

04102014
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby 04102014 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:07 pm

cotiger wrote:
ohpobrecito wrote:Stop ruining this thread.


...Sorry?

How terrible to try to figure out why someone might or might not get waitlisted on the Penn applicants thread :roll:


I accept your apology. :)

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cotiger
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby cotiger » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:09 pm

ohpobrecito wrote:
cotiger wrote:
ohpobrecito wrote:Stop ruining this thread.


...Sorry?

How terrible to try to figure out why someone might or might not get waitlisted on the Penn applicants thread :roll:


I accept your apology. :)


8)

Steveloblaw
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby Steveloblaw » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:31 am

UR1 here, 1/17. Applied early December, with a Why Penn

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TheMostDangerousLG
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby TheMostDangerousLG » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:41 am

cotiger wrote:
ohpobrecito wrote:Stop ruining this thread.


...Sorry?

How terrible to try to figure out why someone might or might not get waitlisted on the Penn applicants thread :roll:


Best post in the thread, especially given that we don't exactly agree on the issue of YP.

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DrStudMuffin
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby DrStudMuffin » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:55 am

I may have missed a critical portion of this conversation, but it appears to me that you guys are looking at YP the wrong way in this case. At Penn at least, it's not just having both GPA/LSAT over both 75th's, it's having numbers that make an individual likely to be accepted at one of HCCN, potentially with money, that increases one's chances of a WL.*

See:

Image
vs.
Image

Sorry for continuing to soil the thread ohpo. Done now.



*Had a few tonight so I take no responsibility for grammatical errors.

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jk148706
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby jk148706 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:56 am

ohpobrecito wrote:
cotiger wrote:
ohpobrecito wrote:Stop ruining this thread.


...Sorry?

How terrible to try to figure out why someone might or might not get waitlisted on the Penn applicants thread :roll:


I accept your apology. :)

:D :D

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TheMostDangerousLG
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby TheMostDangerousLG » Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:07 am

DrStudMuffin wrote:I may have missed a critical portion of this conversation, but it appears to me that you guys are looking at YP the wrong way in this case. At Penn at least, it's not just having both GPA/LSAT over both 75th's, it's having numbers that make an individual likely to be accepted at one of HCCN, potentially with money, that increases one's chances of a WL.*

See:

Image
vs.
Image

Sorry for continuing to soil the thread ohpo. Done now.



*Had a few tonight so I take no responsibility for grammatical errors.


Boom, headshot.*


*I may or may not be sober enough to defend your position to the first challenger who finds a problem, but your conclusion rings true to me given my own study of your charts, which careful analysis has told me are quite orange.

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chneyo
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby chneyo » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:19 am

...
Last edited by chneyo on Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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goldenboy514
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby goldenboy514 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:37 am

goooood morning all...hoping today is a day of rest from the sorrows of previous days

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capt_slow
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby capt_slow » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:31 am

cotiger wrote:Where is everyone getting this YP stuff from? Last year they accepted 29/31=94% of everyone who was above both 75ths. Also, each increase in quartile increased likelihood of acceptance.* I can't even see it for the super high people (i.e. 175+/3.9+), as they got 9/10=90%.

Image

*The one exception was for below median LSAT going from 50-75 -> 75+ GPA. But that looks to be mostly a product of very small sample size, and I don't think LSATs of 168 and below are anyone's definition of YP anyway.


Where did you find this chart?

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capt_slow
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby capt_slow » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:34 am

If I am feeling happy and confident, all I have to do is visit this thread and all of that changes... Thanks TLS

04102014
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby 04102014 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:05 am

So today is Saturday, but Monday is a holiday. So it's basically like a Friday, except no decisions will be released. I miss the time in my life where weekend and holidays were something to be happy about. :|

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goldenboy514
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby goldenboy514 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:11 am

ohpobrecito wrote:So today is Saturday, but Monday is a holiday. So it's basically like a Friday, except no decisions will be released. I miss the time in my life where weekend and holidays were something to be happy about. :|

instead they're just a day where everytime you refresh your email, you're sadly dissapointed

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lawschool22
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby lawschool22 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:32 am

capt_slow wrote:
cotiger wrote:Where is everyone getting this YP stuff from? Last year they accepted 29/31=94% of everyone who was above both 75ths. Also, each increase in quartile increased likelihood of acceptance.* I can't even see it for the super high people (i.e. 175+/3.9+), as they got 9/10=90%.

Image

*The one exception was for below median LSAT going from 50-75 -> 75+ GPA. But that looks to be mostly a product of very small sample size, and I don't think LSATs of 168 and below are anyone's definition of YP anyway.


Where did you find this chart?


He made it. He has a thread on it somewhere. I forget what it's called though.

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oxie
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Re: Penn c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 cycle)

Postby oxie » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:51 am

lawschool22 wrote:
capt_slow wrote:Where did you find this chart?


He made it. He has a thread on it somewhere. I forget what it's called though.

I think it's this one: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=216378&hilit=+median




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