Notre Dame Law School c/o 2018 (2014-2015 applicants)

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gbelle
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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby gbelle » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:53 pm

kyle010723 wrote:I think if anything, the conservative reputation only helps us. Especially with clerkship placements. Justice Scalia regularly hires clerks from ND, Chief Justice Robert just recently hired a ND grad, and Justice Thomas will be teaching a class here this semester. Our clerkship placement is on par with some T14 schools. So if you think clerking is something you might consider down the road, ND is a great place to be outside of T14.



I absolutely have researched this because clerkships are definitely something I'm interested in. I was a little apprehensive for the aforementioned reason that I'm definitely non conservative.

Again, I don't have to pass some litmus test for my political/religious/ethical beliefs prior to being considered for clerkships? Especially for those I saw in the 9th circuit and SCOTUS....?

mx23250
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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby mx23250 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:34 pm

kyle010723 wrote:
mx23250 wrote:Thanks again, Kyle, for answering all our questions. We really appreciate it!

I have a question about OCI at ND. About how many firms come to ND for OCI? Do ND students seem to have good luck with landing multiple interviews and/or getting offers? I'm sure being outside a major market makes it more difficult, but I'm guessing with the national reputation of ND you probably get a good amount of major firms from all over coming to campus? Any insights? Thanks again!


I dont remember the exact amount of firms that was here, but looking at my bidlist, I had more than 50 closer to 60 firms. Now keep in mind I focused mainly in the Midwest, and while most firms are from the Midwest, there were also some firms from the coasts. So if I have to take a guess, probably 100+ came to the main OCI. We also have OCIs in NY and LA, but I didnt go to those, my guess is probably 10 firms or so would interview at one of those.

As far as interview goes, I cannot speak for everyone, but myself got 30ish interviews during OCI. I do not have outstanding grades or anything (although I do have an IP background). That being said, I am still looking for jobs. So you will probably get lots of interviews, but they are not handing out jobs like candy by any means.

In terms of a major market, Chicago is more of a home market for ND than Indy is, basically every single mid to large firm interviewed at ND. ND also has strong connections to NY and CA (more 1Ls come from CA than any other states).

The bottom-line is that grade is still the MOST important factor in getting you a job, but with a name like ND would get you interviews, and it is still up to you to land that job.


Thank you!!! This is great information to hear! I'm pretty sure admissions should buy you a motorized scooter or something else equally awesome for all your input to us admits/applicants!

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby kyle010723 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:54 pm

gbelle wrote:I absolutely have researched this because clerkships are definitely something I'm interested in. I was a little apprehensive for the aforementioned reason that I'm definitely non conservative.

Again, I don't have to pass some litmus test for my political/religious/ethical beliefs prior to being considered for clerkships? Especially for those I saw in the 9th circuit and SCOTUS....?


There are several professors that clerked for the 9th circuit and SCOTUS that would gladly help students in applying for clerkships. In fact, Chief Judge Kozinski was here last semester. Again, I don't think people will think you are a die-hard catholic and ultra conservative just become you come here. But just to lessen your worry, you can always put the American Constitution Society as oppose to the Federalist Society on your resume if you want to make a point.

In the end of the day, if you have the grades, I really do not think your political beliefs will impair your chance of landing a job.

Oh, just to make one more point, I took Professional Responsibility with a Professor that is a clergyman, he did not once say anything bad about Abortion or Same Sex marriage or any of those issues. I think professors here are really good at not pushing their own beliefs.

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby kyle010723 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:58 pm

mx23250 wrote:Thank you!!! This is great information to hear! I'm pretty sure admissions should buy you a motorized scooter or something else equally awesome for all your input to us admits/applicants!


Heh thanks, I am not even an admission ambassador or whatever the title is for students that volunteer at the admission office. I merely found this site extremely helpful when I applied to schools, and thought I'd help any way I can.

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yossarian
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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby yossarian » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:58 pm

gbelle wrote:
kyle010723 wrote:I think if anything, the conservative reputation only helps us. Especially with clerkship placements. Justice Scalia regularly hires clerks from ND, Chief Justice Robert just recently hired a ND grad, and Justice Thomas will be teaching a class here this semester. Our clerkship placement is on par with some T14 schools. So if you think clerking is something you might consider down the road, ND is a great place to be outside of T14.



I absolutely have researched this because clerkships are definitely something I'm interested in. I was a little apprehensive for the aforementioned reason that I'm definitely non conservative.

Again, I don't have to pass some litmus test for my political/religious/ethical beliefs prior to being considered for clerkships? Especially for those I saw in the 9th circuit and SCOTUS....?


Very interested in this. Judges who interview more from conservative schools, it would seem, have to be interested in a conservative (or at least a conservatively educated) candidate. I assume lots of judges like variety and even opposition. And, obviously, it all comes from a stance of political impartiality in research/writing. But, we know the SCOTUS is politicized, so it is more nuanced than that. Scalia and Roberts' slight penchant for BYU, ND may represent that. They have obviously taken clerks from several schools and to say that a clerk came from ND twice or three times for a particular judge hardly counts as regular.

My best guess is the penchant has more to do with a particular association with a professor who runs a program rather than to find conservatively-minded students. That judge (SCOTUS, AIII, or otherwise) may like a professor or program because of that professor's political leaning ideology/philosophy of interpretation of law, but that doesn't mean candidates with connections through that prof all have this leaning? Right? Am I thinking about this correctly. (Also, it is easy to forget that though they may manifest themselves as political leanings, we are probably really talking about leanings in fundamental understandings of law).

GBelle,
I'm also very interested in an AIII, other fed, or IN Supreme Court clerkship. Also lean liberal in political ideology. I've been looking for answers to this on TLS and haven't found anything great. But when ND's high fed clerk rate is mentioned on TLS, someone always mentions the conservative reputation. You say you've done a lot of research? What conclusions are you coming to? Conclusions that still leave you feeling apprehensive, apparently.

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gbelle
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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby gbelle » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:18 pm

yossarian71 wrote:
gbelle wrote:
kyle010723 wrote:I think if anything, the conservative reputation only helps us. Especially with clerkship placements. Justice Scalia regularly hires clerks from ND, Chief Justice Robert just recently hired a ND grad, and Justice Thomas will be teaching a class here this semester. Our clerkship placement is on par with some T14 schools. So if you think clerking is something you might consider down the road, ND is a great place to be outside of T14.



I absolutely have researched this because clerkships are definitely something I'm interested in. I was a little apprehensive for the aforementioned reason that I'm definitely non conservative.

Again, I don't have to pass some litmus test for my political/religious/ethical beliefs prior to being considered for clerkships? Especially for those I saw in the 9th circuit and SCOTUS....?


Very interested in this. Judges who interview more from conservative schools, it would seem, have to be interested in a conservative (or at least a conservatively educated) candidate. I assume lots of judges like variety and even opposition. And, obviously, it all comes from a stance of political impartiality in research/writing. But, we know the SCOTUS is politicized, so it is more nuanced than that. Scalia and Roberts' slight penchant for BYU, ND may represent that. They have obviously taken clerks from several schools and to say that a clerk came from ND twice or three times for a particular judge hardly counts as regular.

My best guess is the penchant has more to do with a particular association with a professor who runs a program rather than to find conservatively-minded students. That judge (SCOTUS, AIII, or otherwise) may like a professor or program because of that professor's political leaning ideology/philosophy of interpretation of law, but that doesn't mean candidates with connections through that prof all have this leaning? Right? Am I thinking about this correctly. (Also, it is easy to forget that though they may manifest themselves as political leanings, we are probably really talking about leanings in fundamental understandings of law).

GBelle,
I'm also very interested in an AIII, other fed, or IN Supreme Court clerkship. Also lean liberal in political ideology. I've been looking for answers to this on TLS and haven't found anything great. But when ND's high fed clerk rate is mentioned on TLS, someone always mentions the conservative reputation. You say you've done a lot of research? What conclusions are you coming to? Conclusions that still leave you feeling apprehensive, apparently.


I started with researching the ND students who gain clerkships with the supreme court, and found that a lot of them feed through O'Scannlain in the 9th circuit, who has authored some decisions that make me cringe as a liberal/human rights advocate.

I have a sneaking suspicion that as much as they want to be open about admitting students who hold various ethical/political perspectives, they will want to hire a clerk who can do the research (for example) that will bolster their own political agenda.

Maybe I am WAY out of line, but I want to love ND, and I want to think that if I work hard I too can have access to a wonderful clerking opportunity. But everything that I've read thus far doesn't settle my doubt.

Let's keep researching.

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby mx23250 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:57 pm

kyle010723 wrote:
mx23250 wrote:Thank you!!! This is great information to hear! I'm pretty sure admissions should buy you a motorized scooter or something else equally awesome for all your input to us admits/applicants!


Heh thanks, I am not even an admission ambassador or whatever the title is for students that volunteer at the admission office. I merely found this site extremely helpful when I applied to schools, and thought I'd help any way I can.


Was there a pretty good showing for IP firms (or law firms looking to hire for IP) at OCI? That's the area of law I'm also planning on going into.

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gbelle
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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby gbelle » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:03 pm

mx23250 wrote:
kyle010723 wrote:
mx23250 wrote:Thank you!!! This is great information to hear! I'm pretty sure admissions should buy you a motorized scooter or something else equally awesome for all your input to us admits/applicants!


Heh thanks, I am not even an admission ambassador or whatever the title is for students that volunteer at the admission office. I merely found this site extremely helpful when I applied to schools, and thought I'd help any way I can.


Was there a pretty good showing for IP firms (or law firms looking to hire for IP) at OCI? That's the area of law I'm also planning on going into.



also want to know this! :)

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby kyle010723 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:05 pm

mx23250 wrote:Was there a pretty good showing for IP firms (or law firms looking to hire for IP) at OCI? That's the area of law I'm also planning on going into.


Yes, as I said, most BigLaw were here for OCI. Regarding more boutique firms, there were several IP boutiques here as well. But if you are going to do IP, you will be going to PLIP during the summer, so the OCI will be more or less a backup for you.

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gbelle
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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby gbelle » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:07 pm

kyle010723 wrote:
mx23250 wrote:Was there a pretty good showing for IP firms (or law firms looking to hire for IP) at OCI? That's the area of law I'm also planning on going into.


Yes, as I said, most BigLaw were here for OCI. Regarding more boutique firms, there were several IP boutiques here as well. But if you are going to do IP, you will be going to PLIP during the summer, so the OCI will be more or less a backup for you.


I love the way you phrase this.

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby kyle010723 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:22 pm

gbelle wrote:I love the way you phrase this.


Well, its more or less true. Id have a job in IP by now if not for my sub-par uGPA.

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby irish921 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:23 pm

Figured I would drop in to the discussion as well and field any questions specific to 1Ls, as I myself currently attend ND. TLS cleared up a lot of stuff during my admissions cycle, and I am happy to help in any way I can.

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby inyoureyes89 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:29 pm

Just submitted my application; hope it's not too late in the cycle. Have similar stats to those who have been accepted. Wrote a "Why ND" essay.

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby paymytelephonebillz » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:10 pm

Got my email acceptance yesterday! Definitely stoked, considering I don't have fantastic numbers and didn't write a "Why" essay.

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby yossarian » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:17 pm

irish921 wrote:Figured I would drop in to the discussion as well and field any questions specific to 1Ls, as I myself currently attend ND. TLS cleared up a lot of stuff during my admissions cycle, and I am happy to help in any way I can.


Curious about biglaw placement in Indy. My initial thought process was that as ND is more a CHI market, that lack of huge presence in Indy was more self-selection. Then I looked at Ice Miller, no ND grads there. Pretty decent representation at FBD Indy. Based on what you've seen of OCI (I know not you as a 1L), 2&3L friends, etc., does the ND degree carry as much weight as IUB in large Indy firms.

Also, I understand this is a very specific question and alot of ND students aren't interested in Indiana at all, so if you can't speak to this, no worries.

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby irish921 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:55 pm

yossarian71 wrote:
irish921 wrote:Figured I would drop in to the discussion as well and field any questions specific to 1Ls, as I myself currently attend ND. TLS cleared up a lot of stuff during my admissions cycle, and I am happy to help in any way I can.


Curious about biglaw placement in Indy. My initial thought process was that as ND is more a CHI market, that lack of huge presence in Indy was more self-selection. Then I looked at Ice Miller, no ND grads there. Pretty decent representation at FBD Indy. Based on what you've seen of OCI (I know not you as a 1L), 2&3L friends, etc., does the ND degree carry as much weight as IUB in large Indy firms.

Also, I understand this is a very specific question and alot of ND students aren't interested in Indiana at all, so if you can't speak to this, no worries.


Here is my limited understanding of Indianapolis biglaw placement:

Indy is obviously home of IU. As such, they reign supreme in terms of regional law schools because of hometown status, putting ND just a shade behind. However, if you are from Indy, and go to ND, your slight disadvantage will disappear. Since very few ND grads stay in Indiana (I think the statistic they gave us was like 6.5%?), I am inclined to say that lack of presence is mostly self selection. And it makes sense that someone who knew they wanted Indy would go to IU, since increased nation recognition and other ish (read network) wouldn't matter.

So to answer your question, I think that someone who wants to go to Indy biglaw will do absolutely fine, assuming they have the grades to make them competitive.

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby mx23250 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:13 pm

irish921 wrote:Figured I would drop in to the discussion as well and field any questions specific to 1Ls, as I myself currently attend ND. TLS cleared up a lot of stuff during my admissions cycle, and I am happy to help in any way I can.


I have a random question about law school classes. What factors into your final grade for the core courses (or at least the 1L ones)? Is it all based on 1+ exams (I assume all essay?) or is there HW/discussion/other factored in? I'm just curious. I took a business law course for my MBA and it was taught by an attorney, but I'm sure it was very different from law school courses.
Thanks!

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby Lebrarian_Booker » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:59 pm

Didn't write a why essay, let's see how this goes...

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby irish921 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:05 pm

mx23250 wrote:
irish921 wrote:Figured I would drop in to the discussion as well and field any questions specific to 1Ls, as I myself currently attend ND. TLS cleared up a lot of stuff during my admissions cycle, and I am happy to help in any way I can.


I have a random question about law school classes. What factors into your final grade for the core courses (or at least the 1L ones)? Is it all based on 1+ exams (I assume all essay?) or is there HW/discussion/other factored in? I'm just curious. I took a business law course for my MBA and it was taught by an attorney, but I'm sure it was very different from law school courses.
Thanks!


It can vary wildly. For example, I know people who had a take-home 8 hour essay exam for one class. On two of my finals I had a mix of essay, short answer, multiple choice, and true false. They were also both 3 hour exams, not 4, although other sections were the standard 4 hours. There can also be bumps or detractions for participation, etc. but generally that is reserved to make the curve work. If you never ever show up for class, you will probably drop a grade (B+ to B for example). However, rest assured that at least at ND, 1L core classes are 100% based upon the final, barring extreme circumstances.

Edit: Just for completeness, although I know you didn't ask about it, Research (1 credit) and Writing (2 credits) at ND are separate classes first semester. There are actual assignments that count towards your grade in both - the final was around 60% weight.

mx23250
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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby mx23250 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:36 pm

irish921 wrote:
mx23250 wrote:
irish921 wrote:Figured I would drop in to the discussion as well and field any questions specific to 1Ls, as I myself currently attend ND. TLS cleared up a lot of stuff during my admissions cycle, and I am happy to help in any way I can.


I have a random question about law school classes. What factors into your final grade for the core courses (or at least the 1L ones)? Is it all based on 1+ exams (I assume all essay?) or is there HW/discussion/other factored in? I'm just curious. I took a business law course for my MBA and it was taught by an attorney, but I'm sure it was very different from law school courses.
Thanks!


It can vary wildly. For example, I know people who had a take-home 8 hour essay exam for one class. On two of my finals I had a mix of essay, short answer, multiple choice, and true false. They were also both 3 hour exams, not 4, although other sections were the standard 4 hours. There can also be bumps or detractions for participation, etc. but generally that is reserved to make the curve work. If you never ever show up for class, you will probably drop a grade (B+ to B for example). However, rest assured that at least at ND, 1L core classes are 100% based upon the final, barring extreme circumstances.

Edit: Just for completeness, although I know you didn't ask about it, Research (1 credit) and Writing (2 credits) at ND are separate classes first semester. There are actual assignments that count towards your grade in both - the final was around 60% weight.


Thanks for the insight!

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby kyle010723 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:29 am

mx23250 wrote:I have a random question about law school classes. What factors into your final grade for the core courses (or at least the 1L ones)? Is it all based on 1+ exams (I assume all essay?) or is there HW/discussion/other factored in? I'm just curious. I took a business law course for my MBA and it was taught by an attorney, but I'm sure it was very different from law school courses.
Thanks!


All of my 2L classes' grades depend on one single final, may it be in class (3 to 4 hours depend on the credit hour), or 8 hour take home. Professors say "good" participation may entitle you to a grade bump, but that is not something I would count on.

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby kyle010723 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:33 am

yossarian71 wrote:Curious about biglaw placement in Indy. My initial thought process was that as ND is more a CHI market, that lack of huge presence in Indy was more self-selection. Then I looked at Ice Miller, no ND grads there. Pretty decent representation at FBD Indy. Based on what you've seen of OCI (I know not you as a 1L), 2&3L friends, etc., does the ND degree carry as much weight as IUB in large Indy firms.

Also, I understand this is a very specific question and alot of ND students aren't interested in Indiana at all, so if you can't speak to this, no worries.


Every single BigLaw in Indy interviewed during OCI, but in order to ensure a placement, you have to overcome the presumption of flight-risk. To do so, you must demonstrate a very good reason why you would want to stay in Indy when you can easily go to Chicago. Assuming you have the grade for BigLaw, why would you go to Indy instead of a major city. That is what law firms are most concern about. Whereas for people from IU-Indy or to a certain extend IU-B, the flight-risk is less of a problem. People do not go to ND because they want to stay in Indiana, and law firms know this.

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yossarian
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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby yossarian » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:37 am

kyle010723 wrote:
yossarian71 wrote:Curious about biglaw placement in Indy. My initial thought process was that as ND is more a CHI market, that lack of huge presence in Indy was more self-selection. Then I looked at Ice Miller, no ND grads there. Pretty decent representation at FBD Indy. Based on what you've seen of OCI (I know not you as a 1L), 2&3L friends, etc., does the ND degree carry as much weight as IUB in large Indy firms.

Also, I understand this is a very specific question and alot of ND students aren't interested in Indiana at all, so if you can't speak to this, no worries.


Every single BigLaw in Indy interviewed during OCI, but in order to ensure a placement, you have to overcome the presumption of flight-risk. To do so, you must demonstrate a very good reason why you would want to stay in Indy when you can easily go to Chicago. Assuming you have the grade for BigLaw, why would you go to Indy instead of a major city. That is what law firms are most concern about. Whereas for people from IU-Indy or to a certain extend IU-B, the flight-risk is less of a problem. People do not go to ND because they want to stay in Indiana, and law firms know this.


Thanks Kyle. I appreciate the perspective. W/ family here and having lived here for while as a kid and adult, I feel confident I can demonstrate that during OCI. It's just worrisome as there are so few SA positions here. Great to hear they were all at OCI though. Thanks again.

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby kyle010723 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:15 pm

yossarian71 wrote:Thanks Kyle. I appreciate the perspective. W/ family here and having lived here for while as a kid and adult, I feel confident I can demonstrate that during OCI. It's just worrisome as there are so few SA positions here. Great to hear they were all at OCI though. Thanks again.


In that case I think you should be fine. Glad to help

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Re: Notre Dame Law School c/o 2017 (2013-2014 applicants)

Postby gotsomequestions » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:20 pm

Anyone receive scholarship info yet?




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