UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

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Moonlight
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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby Moonlight » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:05 pm

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby follywood » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:29 pm

Moonlight wrote:
follywood wrote:Are these people in any way involved in the legal community? I ask because I am seriously considering attending Hastings; the vehement opposition teeming on these boards is very real.

Also very real is the reduction in 2013 1L class size vs. 2012, addressing a common complaint among Hastings students and responding to the reality of disappointing statistics. If we attended, I wonder how this might affect us, graduating in one of the school's smallest classes in recent history?



Oh and so I was looking at East Bay and South Bay law firms that I know of. Some are small as 5 lawyers and under while some are 35 to 50 lawyer firms and there seem to be a lot of Hastings grads in those firms and they pay well (or at least they say so)

The boards here teem with certain schools or don't go and they have their points, but nonetheless keep in mind that there are people from these schools like Hastings or even USF and Santa Clara that get legit jobs as well.

I think class size wise, I'm happy to see the reduction because even if they reduce, they're still bigger than Stanford's class by far and at most about same as Santa Clara or USF's class size. Hastings had a really really large class size in the past. What did you think of the class size reduction?

I was also thinking a smaller class size would mean better placement hopefully. From a local standpoint, I also am playing to the fact that the local schools like Hastings, which has a great reputation in many people's eyes and magazines like Forbes and BusinessInsider, will have an advantage to say Houston Law school in the SF Market.


Yes, you're right that graduates do get jobs, and good jobs at that. Although out of date, the TLS profile of Hastings mentions the OCS as being quite helpful. Some students have corroborated this.

As for the class size, I think it's great news. The class size shrunk by a lot. I want to believe that this will improve the chances of getting interviewed, a job, etc. However, it is quite striking to see the matriculated class size in relation to the percent of total accepted applicants:

2011: 414 (@28.8% accepted)
2012: 317 (@29.9% accepted)
2013: 333 (@40.5% accepted)

(Source: http://www.uchastings.edu/about/consumer-info/index.php)

A 10% increase in admitted students and a reduced class size makes me wonder whether there is something else to consider. Indeed, the decreased class of 2012 occurred during the typical 25-30% acceptance range, but the huge drop in applicants last year is reflective of something else. Yes, law schools have been suffering, and the Pacific Northwest is no exception (cf. http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2022635377_tuitionwaiverxml.html)

While Hastings dropped in USNWR rankings, it wasn't by that much, and relatively less to Davis. Employment statistics have been disappointing, but nothing compared to USF or GGU or even stronger regional schools in CA. Tuition, at cost, is impossible to afford, at least for me. Coupled with the COL of the Bay Area, there is a strong argument to shy away from applying.

So, in brief, I am skeptical of the reduced class size, but quite accepting of it. It seems to be part of a broader plan by Dean Wu to improve the integrity of the school.

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby Moonlight » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:30 am

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby follywood » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:05 am

Moonlight wrote:What do you think about Davis? I feel like Davis doesn't have that same prestige as Hastings despite the higher rank in recent years?

Do you think the acceptance percentage increase versus the decreased class size means a lowering of people's interest in the school or is it just a decrease of applicants in general?


I don't know much about Davis because, frankly, I have zero interest in living in the Sacramento area. Unfortunately, TLS is my main source of information for it, and on these forums there seem to be, by and large, two types of characters, at least in discussing relationships between Davis and Hastings. First type: Davis is ranked higher than Hastings, so choose Davis. Second type: T14 or you're wasting your life. There might be some wisdom in both positions, but they are so reductive and unhelpful as to be superfluous.

With respect to ranking, here are some statistics (I have a fondness for numbers :wink: ):

UC Davis: 2013 - #38 (-9 slots over prior year; -15 slots over prior two years)
UC Hastings: 2013 - #48 (-4 slots over prior year; -6 slots over prior two years)

So, relative to Davis, Hastings didn't get hit as hard in its knock down as Davis. Let's look at a few other regional schools...

SCU: 2013 - #96 (same slot as prior year; -12 slots over prior two years)
USF: 2013 - #144 (-44 slots over prior two years)
GGU: 2013 - unranked

Overall, of the five regional Bay Area schools, Hastings held itself the strongest in the rankings over the last couple years. Berkeley, which dropped two slots over the prior year, and Stanford are Bay Area schools, and, though producing serious Bay Area competition, send graduates across the state and nation. (Although between 2010 and 2012, all those from Berkeley who took the bar exam did it in California.)

Anyway, I'm digressing.

It seems that, yes, Hastings is still a strong regional school. Other schools across the nation are undoubtedly facing fewer applicants, as the newspaper article I linked to earlier mentioned. For what it's worth, Hastings has been consistent about its number of offers and has maintained its goal of a 20% reduction in class sizes, although 300 is still pretty big, IMO (Davis is less than 200).

But the fewer graduates we get from what I consider one of the strongest regional schools (remember that some graduates end up practicing in other states or working in different countries), the less competition for jobs there will be for Hastings alumni. Of course, this also means there will be less competition for competing alumni of other schools.

More importantly, though, how will the educational experience be affected? Do the smaller classes correspond to more qualitative learning and training? Were the faculty reduced in proportion? Might there be more mentoring or interpersonal development between students and professors? If so, then a class reduction would be a huge improvement in strengthening the curriculum.

What do you think?

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby Moonlight » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:17 am

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby follywood » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:32 am

Moonlight wrote:Haha we all love numbers ;) And yea I agree on Davis being knocked pretty hard.
Yea 300 is still pretty big but hey come to think of it, our high school classes were all about that size or bigger, right?
I would think that the smaller classes would be better for learning and training? I think there was an article that said the faculty was increased by a few? I'm worried about tuition increases that people seem to imply is coming


I'll try to find some information re the faculty.

W/r/t tuition increases, though:

2011: $40,836 / $49,336
2012: $46,806 / $52,806
2013: $47,634 / $53,634 (Davis: $47,286 / $56,537)*

*The year Hastings became more expensive than Davis?

In my forum browsing, I came across a Hastings budget presentation (without connotation or any kind of authority attached to it, so take it with a grain of salt): http://web.archive.org/web/20120523073220/http://www.uchastings.edu/budget/docs/SPI8%20Presentation%204-20-2012.pdf

You may have already seen it, but skip to page 21. You will notice that the actual numbers do not match the presentation's numbers (taste that salt?), but, perhaps more ominous is that the actual numbers are higher than the projected ones.

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby Moonlight » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:36 am

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby follywood » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:45 am

Moonlight wrote:Hmm interesting. I'm trying to figure out how much scholly people can get.


To Hastings?

From their Consumer Info:

2013: 80% of students receiving grants/scholarships, 72% of which are less than half tuition, and 8% half to full, with averages at $12,800/$15,450/$16,450.

LSN for the same class reveals scholarships up to $25,500.

Is Hastings exclusively need-based? Do they have any scholarships one may apply for? If you're worried about the inevitable tuition increases, what might be a scholarship range that would make your decision to attend easier? I feel like if I don't get at least half, it will make the decision so much more difficult.

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby Moonlight » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:53 am

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby follywood » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:59 am

Moonlight wrote:I don't think many people get half. I'm hoping to score a need based and a scholarship. I think they're hybrids with merit and requiring need-based as a prerequisite almost. $25k would make the decision a lot easier.


Agreed. I received confirmation of their receipt of my Need Access on 1/31. Any idea when they'll send offers? :mrgreen:

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby Moonlight » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:12 am

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Jamesta25
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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby Jamesta25 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:52 am

follywood wrote:2013: 80% of students receiving grants/scholarships, 72% of which are less than half tuition, and 8% half to full, with averages at $12,800/$15,450/$16,450.

First and foremost, it's refreshing to have your voice added into the mix. The Hastings bashing rhetoric you mentioned is off-putting and tiresome and it's a breath of fresh air to have another seemingly intelligent critical thinker added to this discussion. Great to have a few prospective 1Ls to discuss with.

A couple of responses/questions:

With 72% of the scholarships at less than half and 8% half-to-full, what are the other 20% of scholarships?

Moonlight - I mentioned that the fin aid office said they would try to get aid packages emailed out within two weeks of submitting NeedAccess and FAFSA, not within two weeks of admission. The email from admissions in early January stated that if you completed FAFSA/NeedAccess before your acceptance, that they would strive to get packages sent out within one week. But I wasn't able to file taxes and submit each until after my acceptance.

follywood - When you mention receiving a receipt of your NeedAccess, did you receive a receipt from Hastings that they received your information? Or are you referring to the general NeedAccess receipt email you receive after completing your forms and paying the fee?

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby Cal Trask » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:31 am

Moonlight wrote:
follywood wrote:
Moonlight wrote:I don't think many people get half. I'm hoping to score a need based and a scholarship. I think they're hybrids with merit and requiring need-based as a prerequisite almost. $25k would make the decision a lot easier.


Agreed. I received confirmation of their receipt of my Need Access on 1/31. Any idea when they'll send offers? :mrgreen:


lol no clue. I think we were told that they'd send them or try to within 2 weeks of our acceptance? But I think this week is week 3 since my acceptance?


I didn't get a confirmation yet. :/
Did they email you saying they'd received it or what?

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby follywood » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:51 am

Jamesta25 wrote:With 72% of the scholarships at less than half and 8% half-to-full, what are the other 20% of scholarships?


Jamesta, I am glad you asked this. I realize the way I phrased my statement was unclear. So, of 100% of the student body at Hastings, 80% received some form of scholarship or grant. As a further breakdown, 20% received none, 72% received from $1 to half of tuition, and 8% received half of tuition to full tuition, equaling 100% of the student body. I should add that nobody was listed as receiving "Full Tuition" as listed in the ABA disclosures, which makes think "half to full" is actually "half +$1 to full -$1" or some range therein. Needless to say, the vast majority of recipients seem to pay around 3/4 tuition, at least judging from the 25/50/75 range.

Jamesta25 wrote:follywood - When you mention receiving a receipt of your NeedAccess, did you receive a receipt from Hastings that they received your information? Or are you referring to the general NeedAccess receipt email you receive after completing your forms and paying the fee?


I received email confirmation from Need Access on 1/27 and confirmation from admiss@uchastings on 1/30 (not 1/31 as I now realize).

By the way, thanks for posting. I agree that we need more reasonable, informed, and respectful discussion here, especially since this thread has already exceeded 5,000 views. It behooves us, I think, to enlighten and share what little we can.

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby Jamesta25 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:03 pm

follywood wrote:W/r/t tuition increases, though:

2011: $40,836 / $49,336
2012: $46,806 / $52,806
2013: $47,634 / $53,634 (Davis: $47,286 / $56,537)*

*The year Hastings became more expensive than Davis?

Also, I'm not sure where you are getting this information, as I looked this morning and the website states: "For the third year in a row, UC Hastings will not increase tuition in 2014"

The expected tuition for 2013-2014 is as follows, according to the website (http://www.uchastings.edu/admissions/jd ... /index.php):

$43,486 for in-state
$49,486 for out-of-state

Still obscenely expensive but not quite as bad as your figures show.

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby Moonlight » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:28 pm

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deebanger
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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby deebanger » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:50 pm

Guys, what is your general take on Davis having better employment numbers than Hastings, do you all agree that the reality is that Davis grads are getting more jobs than hastings grads?. would love to get your thoughts/opinions.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=hastings
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=davis

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:16 pm

deebanger wrote:Guys, what is your general take on Davis having better employment numbers than Hastings, do you all agree that the reality is that Davis grads are getting more jobs than hastings grads?. would love to get your thoughts/opinions.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=hastings
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=davis


I think it's justified. Numbers don't lie. These numbers came from the ABA. Davis also give out more scholly $$$. Also, check this out:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... XZnc#gid=0

Quite frankly, I'm not sure what the Dean's strategy is. He let the 25th/50th/75th LSAT score fall by -3/-3/-2 while INCREASING class size by 14 people! Their GPA lines fell slightly as well. Davis, on he other hand, cut 48 people from their class and fell only -1/-1/-1. I don't think increasing your class size while watching your medians fall is going to help employment. With fewer grads, I think Davis has been and will be continuing to place more students into jobs (even if only on the sole basis that they have fewer people to take care of).

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby deebanger » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:26 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
deebanger wrote:Guys, what is your general take on Davis having better employment numbers than Hastings, do you all agree that the reality is that Davis grads are getting more jobs than hastings grads?. would love to get your thoughts/opinions.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=hastings
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=davis


I think it's justified. Numbers don't lie. These numbers came from the ABA. Davis also give out more scholly $$$. Also, check this out:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... XZnc#gid=0

Quite frankly, I'm not sure what the Dean's strategy is. He let the 25th/50th/75th LSAT score fall by -3/-3/-2 while INCREASING class size by 14 people! Their GPA lines fell slightly as well. Davis, on he other hand, cut 48 people from their class and fell only -1/-1/-1. I don't think increasing your class size while watching your medians fall is going to help employment. With fewer grads, I think Davis has been and will be continuing to place more students into jobs (even if only on the sole basis that they have fewer people to take care of).


well said, I think hastings USED to be a good option, but now not so much. The employment numbers speak for themselves. Even though davis might not be a top 3 law school in the state, it can call itself a "strong regional". Whereas Hastings CANNOT call itself a strong regional. And receiving more scholly money from davis, and having low cost of living really gives davis the edge over hastings. So for california, the pecking order should be Stan/berkely/ucla/usc/ ucd-uci. would you agree?

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:37 pm

deebanger wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
deebanger wrote:Guys, what is your general take on Davis having better employment numbers than Hastings, do you all agree that the reality is that Davis grads are getting more jobs than hastings grads?. would love to get your thoughts/opinions.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=hastings
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=davis


I think it's justified. Numbers don't lie. These numbers came from the ABA. Davis also give out more scholly $$$. Also, check this out:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... XZnc#gid=0

Quite frankly, I'm not sure what the Dean's strategy is. He let the 25th/50th/75th LSAT score fall by -3/-3/-2 while INCREASING class size by 14 people! Their GPA lines fell slightly as well. Davis, on he other hand, cut 48 people from their class and fell only -1/-1/-1. I don't think increasing your class size while watching your medians fall is going to help employment. With fewer grads, I think Davis has been and will be continuing to place more students into jobs (even if only on the sole basis that they have fewer people to take care of).


well said, I think hastings USED to be a good option, but now not so much. The employment numbers speak for themselves. Even though davis might not be a top 3 law school in the state, it can call itself a "strong regional". Whereas Hastings CANNOT call itself a strong regional. And receiving more scholly money from davis, and having low cost of living really gives davis the edge over hastings. So for california, the pecking order should be Stan/berkely/ucla/usc/ ucd-uci. would you agree?


Hastings definitely has more lay prestige among the bay area, but that does not exactly translate into better employment numbers. For now, given the cost of attendance, employment stats, ranking, and LSAT/GPA medians, of the two, Davis is superior.

We'll see about UCI. It's employment numbers are good now, but the question is whether they can keep it up or not. Unlike Davis and Hastings, they have NO alumni network. They will also be increasing class size so their numbers will probably fall as well. Maybe. Nobody knows.

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby Moonlight » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:24 pm

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby deebanger » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:17 pm

Moonlight wrote:If we talk Bay Area (i.e. Peninsula, East Bay, South Bay) then it would be safe to say Hastings is stronger than Davis right? Isn't it true that Davis places more around Sacramento area and plays less of an impact in the Bay Area?

I hardly hear people talk about Davis Law school. Tbh, I didn't even know Davis had a law school until they offered me a fee waiver...


bottom line, 21.44 percent of hastings graduates are unemployed, whereas 5.94 percent of davis grads are unemployed. These are numbers from class of 2012 employment. Both are not great options compared to Berk/Stan/ucla/usc, but I would be much more willing to take the risk and go with Davis given the options. Now, that being said, maybe hastings might work for you. But, just remember to take a close look at the employment numbers, and make a well informed decision.
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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby Cal Trask » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:18 pm

Moonlight wrote:If we talk Bay Area (i.e. Peninsula, East Bay, South Bay) then it would be safe to say Hastings is stronger than Davis right? Isn't it true that Davis places more around Sacramento area and plays less of an impact in the Bay Area?

I hardly hear people talk about Davis Law school. Tbh, I didn't even know Davis had a law school until they offered me a fee waiver...


Davis is also competitive in the Bay Area. Though it's main strength is placement in the Sacramento area, I believe it places fairly competitively with Hastings. If Hastings has any advantage, it's very minor.

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby deebanger » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:23 pm

Cal Trask wrote:
Moonlight wrote:If we talk Bay Area (i.e. Peninsula, East Bay, South Bay) then it would be safe to say Hastings is stronger than Davis right? Isn't it true that Davis places more around Sacramento area and plays less of an impact in the Bay Area?

I hardly hear people talk about Davis Law school. Tbh, I didn't even know Davis had a law school until they offered me a fee waiver...


Davis is also competitive in the Bay Area. Though it's main strength is placement in the Sacramento area, I believe it places fairly competitively with Hastings. If Hastings has any advantage, it's very minor.


well said, and also Hastings also competes with Berkeley and Stanford for those highly coveted bay area jobs. So, when it comes down to the wire, If one gets more schollly from davis, and that will more likely be the case as they are not that stingy like hastings, combined with the lower cost of living at Davis, Davis might get the edge over Hastings.

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Re: UC Hastings c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014)

Postby Moonlight » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:51 pm

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