American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

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auwcl123
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby auwcl123 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:10 pm

Is there a Facebook group for admitted students? Can't seem to find one

cronous
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby cronous » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:48 pm

Fretter31 wrote:Maybe someone with knowledge can verify this, but is it true that there is a disconnect between the faculty and the Admissions Office? From what I understand, the faculty have been trying to get the administration to reduce class sizes for years, but have not been successful in convincing the Dean and Admissions to do this. My understanding is that this is due to the fact that, unlike most law schools, the faculty at WCL have little to no say as to what the class size and admissions standards are. In other words, Admissions and the faculty are completely independent of each other and the left hand has no say in what the right hand does. Anyone comment on this?


I am not really sure to what extent faculty anywhere have control over class size, at best they may be able to influence the outcome, but but given the fact they are not the ones who have to balance the budget it is easy for them to push to do the "right" thing.

From my experiences there, AU's culture never seemed awfully concerned with money matters. It was much more about social justice, human rights, and providing a unique legal experience (all of which are expensive to provide experiences in) than the more mundane considerations of finding a job. Add in the fact that you have a well credentialed faculty (whom I am sure is paid quite well), it is not surprising that the administration lacks the fiscal flexibility to cut class sizes. AU is geared to need just under 500 warm bodies to make the system work. I am not sure any amount faculty pressure can change that reality.

vthokies88
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby vthokies88 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:52 pm

Not to reopen the entire can of worms on AU's rank and overall quality (which I'm sure this will), but it is worthwhile to note the serious discrepancy between AU's ranking every year and it's reputation score compiled by USNWR. The scores do give some support Grossman's statements that it is foolish to look at a highly-criticized ranking system developed by a sex-deprived guy at USNWR.

In 2013 AU was ranked 56, but our overall reputation score was 42. See http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2013/12/us-news--1.html. This year, American was ranked #72 USNWR's reputation score for AU was 2.8 out of 5 (49th overall). Now before everyone starts saying "OMG 2.8 OUT OF 5 BLOWS! THAT'S NOT A REAL LAW SCHOOL!", look at GW's reputation score (3.4)...only .6 higher than American. http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2014/03/us-news-2014-reputation-results.html.

I'm not saying that AU is God's gift to law schools-it's definitely not and it has a lot of problems that our incompetent administration needs to resolve. But keep in mind that AU is a regional school-always has been and will be for the foreseeable future. But the reputation score speaks for itself, and students who do well at American will continue to obtain high-quality jobs. And the top-ranked students (10-15%) will continue to get BigLaw jobs (I don't mean 10-15% of the student body...I mean people ranked 15% and higher...not everyone in within that class rank seeks BigLaw).

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catsinboxes
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby catsinboxes » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:50 am

Just Withdrew, good luck to those still waiting!

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cricketlove00
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby cricketlove00 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:14 pm

Is it bad that I was offended when I received a car magnet in my acceptance letter instead of a scholarship?

Smer45
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby Smer45 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:30 pm

cricketlove00 wrote:Is it bad that I was offended when I received a car magnet in my acceptance letter instead of a scholarship?


Did others receive scholarship info with their acceptance letters??

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Mauve.Dino
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby Mauve.Dino » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:37 pm

cricketlove00 wrote:Is it bad that I was offended when I received a car magnet in my acceptance letter instead of a scholarship?


LOL :wink:

NoDayButToday
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby NoDayButToday » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:38 pm

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Last edited by NoDayButToday on Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hopeful 0L
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby hopeful 0L » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:38 pm

vthokies88 wrote:Not to reopen the entire can of worms on AU's rank and overall quality (which I'm sure this will), but it is worthwhile to note the serious discrepancy between AU's ranking every year and it's reputation score compiled by USNWR. The scores do give some support Grossman's statements that it is foolish to look at a highly-criticized ranking system developed by a sex-deprived guy at USNWR.

In 2013 AU was ranked 56, but our overall reputation score was 42. See http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2013/12/us-news--1.html. This year, American was ranked #72 USNWR's reputation score for AU was 2.8 out of 5 (49th overall). Now before everyone starts saying "OMG 2.8 OUT OF 5 BLOWS! THAT'S NOT A REAL LAW SCHOOL!", look at GW's reputation score (3.4)...only .6 higher than American. http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2014/03/us-news-2014-reputation-results.html.

I'm not saying that AU is God's gift to law schools-it's definitely not and it has a lot of problems that our incompetent administration needs to resolve. But keep in mind that AU is a regional school-always has been and will be for the foreseeable future. But the reputation score speaks for itself, and students who do well at American will continue to obtain high-quality jobs. And the top-ranked students (10-15%) will continue to get BigLaw jobs (I don't mean 10-15% of the student body...I mean people ranked 15% and higher...not everyone in within that class rank seeks BigLaw).


So that's really what you want to hang your hat on? That the top 10% at a school that puts you a quarter of a million dollars into debt still does well?

I don't think people here are down on American because they think it provides a shitty legal education (though maybe some do). It's more that American doesn't provide a valuable legal education. I understand that the school's location drives up its operating costs, but the fact remains that it charges an asinine amount of money for the truly dreadful employment outcomes it offers. The employment score is 38.9! And a big chunk of those jobs will offer absolutely no shot at repaying the debt incurred, because it's not as if the school plays ball and actually offers solid scholarships. On the contrary, American is known for being incredibly stingy, lowballing people and YP-waitlisting/denying qualified candidates that they should be throwing full (or nearly full) rides at.

I'm sure it gets old hearing everyone trash the school, but in my opinion, it's very much warranted. I'm not saying this to knock any current/prospective students. Just the administration - they are basically just stealing people's money.

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cricketlove00
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby cricketlove00 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:06 pm

Smer45 wrote:
cricketlove00 wrote:Is it bad that I was offended when I received a car magnet in my acceptance letter instead of a scholarship?


Did others receive scholarship info with their acceptance letters??


I honestly don't think they give scholarship info with the acceptance letters, but still.

vthokies88
Posts: 45
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby vthokies88 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:23 pm

hopeful 0L wrote:
vthokies88 wrote:Not to reopen the entire can of worms on AU's rank and overall quality (which I'm sure this will), but it is worthwhile to note the serious discrepancy between AU's ranking every year and it's reputation score compiled by USNWR. The scores do give some support Grossman's statements that it is foolish to look at a highly-criticized ranking system developed by a sex-deprived guy at USNWR.

In 2013 AU was ranked 56, but our overall reputation score was 42. See http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2013/12/us-news--1.html. This year, American was ranked #72 USNWR's reputation score for AU was 2.8 out of 5 (49th overall). Now before everyone starts saying "OMG 2.8 OUT OF 5 BLOWS! THAT'S NOT A REAL LAW SCHOOL!", look at GW's reputation score (3.4)...only .6 higher than American. http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2014/03/us-news-2014-reputation-results.html.

I'm not saying that AU is God's gift to law schools-it's definitely not and it has a lot of problems that our incompetent administration needs to resolve. But keep in mind that AU is a regional school-always has been and will be for the foreseeable future. But the reputation score speaks for itself, and students who do well at American will continue to obtain high-quality jobs. And the top-ranked students (10-15%) will continue to get BigLaw jobs (I don't mean 10-15% of the student body...I mean people ranked 15% and higher...not everyone in within that class rank seeks BigLaw).


So that's really what you want to hang your hat on? That the top 10% at a school that puts you a quarter of a million dollars into debt still does well?

I don't think people here are down on American because they think it provides a shitty legal education (though maybe some do). It's more that American doesn't provide a valuable legal education. I understand that the school's location drives up its operating costs, but the fact remains that it charges an asinine amount of money for the truly dreadful employment outcomes it offers. The employment score is 38.9! And a big chunk of those jobs will offer absolutely no shot at repaying the debt incurred, because it's not as if the school plays ball and actually offers solid scholarships. On the contrary, American is known for being incredibly stingy, lowballing people and YP-waitlisting/denying qualified candidates that they should be throwing full (or nearly full) rides at.

I'm sure it gets old hearing everyone trash the school, but in my opinion, it's very much warranted. I'm not saying this to knock any current/prospective students. Just the administration - they are basically just stealing people's money.


I'm hanging my hat on that because I've done it at AU (all without debt because I work and get Post 9/11 GI Bill benefits). Being in the top 10% is not easy, but it's also not impossible. There are a lot of idiots at AU (I'd say about 20-30% or maybe more). There are also a lot of bright people who have no work ethic, so they get poor grades. And a little secret about AU - I knew a lot of people who were not in the top 10% at the end of 1L year but who are now in the top 10% because a little over 20% of the class transferred or switched to full-time. Almost all of the transfer students are in the top 20%, so you could stand to benefit from the high transfer rate. And if you're in the top 10%, you stand a really good shot at getting spot on Law Review through grade-on. And again...top 10% is for big law. AU does very well with small firms, mid-seize firms, and some government agencies (not DOJ - go to T-10 for that). We also do well with clerkships, which can be extremely helpful in landing a job (especially if it's federal). A little over 40% of our class is employed at graduation, and the rate is much higher 9 months after graduation. But don't hang your hat on GW - their JD-required rate is about 60% (and that's not all BigLaw either, so people in that 60% will also have jobs that everyone on these boards complains about).

cronous
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby cronous » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:18 pm

vthokies88 wrote:A little over 40% of our class is employed at graduation, and the rate is much higher 9 months after graduation. But don't hang your hat on GW - their JD-required rate is about 60% (and that's not all BigLaw either, so people in that 60% will also have jobs that everyone on these boards complains about).


Not really an accurate comparison. That 40% at graduation figure is the addition of JD required & so called JD Advantage jobs (which honestly most law schools play around with to up their numbers). GWs comparable rate at graduation is 85%.

hopeful 0L
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby hopeful 0L » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:45 pm

So that's really what you want to hang your hat on? That the top 10% at a school that puts you a quarter of a million dollars into debt still does well?

I don't think people here are down on American because they think it provides a shitty legal education (though maybe some do). It's more that American doesn't provide a valuable legal education. I understand that the school's location drives up its operating costs, but the fact remains that it charges an asinine amount of money for the truly dreadful employment outcomes it offers. The employment score is 38.9! And a big chunk of those jobs will offer absolutely no shot at repaying the debt incurred, because it's not as if the school plays ball and actually offers solid scholarships. On the contrary, American is known for being incredibly stingy, lowballing people and YP-waitlisting/denying qualified candidates that they should be throwing full (or nearly full) rides at.

I'm sure it gets old hearing everyone trash the school, but in my opinion, it's very much warranted. I'm not saying this to knock any current/prospective students. Just the administration - they are basically just stealing people's money.[/quote]

I'm hanging my hat on that because I've done it at AU (all without debt because I work and get Post 9/11 GI Bill benefits). Being in the top 10% is not easy, but it's also not impossible. There are a lot of idiots at AU (I'd say about 20-30% or maybe more). There are also a lot of bright people who have no work ethic, so they get poor grades. And a little secret about AU - I knew a lot of people who were not in the top 10% at the end of 1L year but who are now in the top 10% because a little over 20% of the class transferred or switched to full-time. Almost all of the transfer students are in the top 20%, so you could stand to benefit from the high transfer rate. And if you're in the top 10%, you stand a really good shot at getting spot on Law Review through grade-on. And again...top 10% is for big law. AU does very well with small firms, mid-seize firms, and some government agencies (not DOJ - go to T-10 for that). We also do well with clerkships, which can be extremely helpful in landing a job (especially if it's federal). A little over 40% of our class is employed at graduation, and the rate is much higher 9 months after graduation. But don't hang your hat on GW - their JD-required rate is about 60% (and that's not all BigLaw either, so people in that 60% will also have jobs that everyone on these boards complains about).[/quote]

Nowhere in your response did you really address any of the concerns I raised. Instead, you dug your heels in further to defend being top 10% at American, which was not under attack at all - good for you - I mean that sincerely.

Still, the fact that you've "done it" and are set up to do well out of American does not in and of itself validate the institution (anecdotal). You are the exception, not the rule...both in terms of performance (90% of your classmates are not in the top 10%) and in terms of financial situation (not everyone is working/has GI Bill benefits). The majority of your classmates are in a much worse situation than you find yourself in, plain and simple. Finally, that you comment that American "does well" in midlaw and clerkships is not substantiated by the LST numbers.

Seriously, kudos for you doing well. But don't use that to twist the narrative into everyone does well, because that is decidedly untrue. As I said earlier, my problem is not with the quality of the legal education at AU but rather with value of the education. Agree, disagree, whatever. I just hope prospective students think about it before sinking 250K into thinking they'll be just like you. Best of luck

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BankruptMe
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby BankruptMe » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:54 pm

I had a date change. I swear it was last week and said complete. now it changed to today. wot?

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BlackCanary
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby BlackCanary » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:01 pm

Didn't get PIPS. Will be withdrawing soon.

llamall
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby llamall » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:04 pm

BlackCanary wrote:Didn't get PIPS. Will be withdrawing soon.


How did you find out?

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BlackCanary
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby BlackCanary » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:26 pm

llamall wrote:
BlackCanary wrote:Didn't get PIPS. Will be withdrawing soon.


How did you find out?

Email.

ajl17
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby ajl17 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:18 pm

Will anyone try to negotiate the PIPS scholarship with other schools' offers, if they were notified that they did not make the first cut?

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PattyCake
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby PattyCake » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:03 pm

BlackCanary wrote:Didn't get PIPS. Will be withdrawing soon.


Still have not received a decision. Applied for PIPS, did not receive the first-round elimination email. Should I assume, then, that my file has not even been read, since I went complete in December?

as975266
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby as975266 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:09 pm

I just received an email from them saying that my application is being reviewed and they will notify me by phone and email if I get it. They also said they will be notifying successful applicants into April. I applied the day before the deadline for PIPS.

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PattyCake
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby PattyCake » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:12 pm

as975266 wrote:I just received an email from them saying that my application is being reviewed and they will notify me by phone and email if I get it. They also said they will be notifying successful applicants into April. I applied the day before the deadline for PIPS.


So you already know you're admitted, right?

as975266
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby as975266 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:15 pm

Yes I was recently admitted

ajl17
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby ajl17 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:22 pm

I received a confirmation email about 2 months after I submitted the scholarship application - after I was admitted.

PattyCake wrote:
BlackCanary wrote:Didn't get PIPS. Will be withdrawing soon.


Still have not received a decision. Applied for PIPS, did not receive the first-round elimination email. Should I assume, then, that my file has not even been read, since I went complete in December?

vthokies88
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby vthokies88 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:44 pm

cronous wrote:
vthokies88 wrote:A little over 40% of our class is employed at graduation, and the rate is much higher 9 months after graduation. But don't hang your hat on GW - their JD-required rate is about 60% (and that's not all BigLaw either, so people in that 60% will also have jobs that everyone on these boards complains about).


Not really an accurate comparison. That 40% at graduation figure is the addition of JD required & so called JD Advantage jobs (which honestly most law schools play around with to up their numbers). GWs comparable rate at graduation is 85%.


First, I encourage all prospective students to look at the ABA's employment statistics. In 2012, 196 students out of 463 had bar passage required jobs (42.33%). Of those, 180 were full-time long term. Another 120 jobs were JD-preferred (25.92%). Don't just look at USNWR.

Second, GW's comparable rate at graduation is not 85%. Law school graduates want meaningful jobs, which is why people (including myself in my earlier posts) derided AU for scamming a lot of students by enticing them with promising careers that it can't always deliver. But that 85% from GW do not get legitimate jobs. GW as a whole (not just the law school) has become an expert at scamming rankings. When you disregard that it employs 25% of its students at graduation for the minimum required by USNWR to count those jobs as long-term, it's actually around 60%. I don't know about this year because the ABA hasn't released employment stats yet, but as of last year, AU employed I think 2% of its grads.

Again, I'm not sticking up for AU's failures. I was pretty harsh on AU in earlier posts. But just like students should think critically about AU, they shouldn't be scammed into thinking that 85% of GW grads get legitimate jobs.
Last edited by vthokies88 on Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

vthokies88
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Re: American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants

Postby vthokies88 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:52 pm

Nowhere in your response did you really address any of the concerns I raised. Instead, you dug your heels in further to defend being top 10% at American, which was not under attack at all - good for you - I mean that sincerely.

Still, the fact that you've "done it" and are set up to do well out of American does not in and of itself validate the institution (anecdotal). You are the exception, not the rule...both in terms of performance (90% of your classmates are not in the top 10%) and in terms of financial situation (not everyone is working/has GI Bill benefits). The majority of your classmates are in a much worse situation than you find yourself in, plain and simple. Finally, that you comment that American "does well" in midlaw and clerkships is not substantiated by the LST numbers.

Seriously, kudos for you doing well. But don't use that to twist the narrative into everyone does well, because that is decidedly untrue. As I said earlier, my problem is not with the quality of the legal education at AU but rather with value of the education. Agree, disagree, whatever. I just hope prospective students think about it before sinking 250K into thinking they'll be just like you. Best of luck


Just for the record, my earlier posts derided AU as scamming students and for ignoring the rankings at its own peril. I explicitly said that the administration is incompetent. I'm just making the point that it is possible to do well at AU if you put in effort because a lot of students are lazy, and I wouldn't hire them to defend a traffic ticket. And while AU is expensive, GW is significantly more expensive. I agree with you that not every student will be in my financial position after law school, but my comment was intended to suggest that there are ways to get around some of the massive debt that ALL law students incur in this area (unless you go to a state-funded school). Students considering AU may want to consider going part-time and looking for a legal job as a law clerk or paralegal (besides the money, it will help students build a resume that will appeal to employers). School will take longer and you might not reap all of the benefits of full-time students, but you will be able to pay off some of the debt and build a resume (which all AU students desperately need). You'll still have time for Law Review, moot court, etc., but you'll have a lot of late nights.




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