Tier 4 School or wait?

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stuckinthemiddle
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby stuckinthemiddle » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:42 am

Well, if Elle Woods could do it...

RodneyRuxin
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby RodneyRuxin » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:45 am

romothesavior wrote:
xstephh34x wrote:Lol horrible attitude? You don't know my story at all. And BTW, people who have scored low are capable of succeeding. My score doesn't automatically determine that I won't be successful.

A low LSAT score isn't conclusive evidence that one won't succeed as a lawyer, but there is a very strong presumption that you won't. Job placement is strongly correlated with quality of school, and the schools you're talking about here are very, very poor options.

Did you see my post above? Did you look at the job data for these two schools? Have you considered how you will service your massive debt on a low-paying job?


Basically this. I was very careful to not trigger your special snowflake syndrome by saying things like "most" and "likely." I'm legitimately trying to help you. Be aware that everyone posting in this thread doesn't give two shits about what you do with your life--they have no hidden motivations behind telling you not to go, they are trying to help.

And yes, regardless of your "story" your attitude is piss poor. I know that I wouldn't enjoy having lunch with you, and I think anyone who reads this thread would agree. If you don't believe me, feel free to add a poll to the OP. You can vote for yourself so you won't be too embarrassed.

xstephh34x
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby xstephh34x » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:49 am

TheSpanishMain wrote:
xstephh34x wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:
xstephh34x wrote:And you know someone who scored a 137 twice and worked hard isn't capable of scoring above that? Wow. Where's your crystal ball? I'm curious to see what else the future has in store.


He said most people. It isn't impossible, it's just really, really, really unlikely. With studying, you might improve, but you need to improve A LOT. What happened on your last LSATs? Did you run out of time? Did you not understand the questions? Did you feel confident and still scored poorly?

What is your undergraduate GPA?


In both LSATs, I ran out of time and had to guess on literally 10+ questions. Are there any intensive LSAT courses that anyone would recommend?

I had a 3.5 GPA in undergrad.



Well, at least your GPA is fine. Look through the LSAT prep forum for methods.

All that said, know that the kind of jump you'd need would be almost unheard of. You need like an extra 20 points. That would be a monumental leap, and it's still only enough to get you into mediocre regionals.

You need to strongly consider not pursuing a JD. Yeah, it's possible that it could work out, but the odds would be heavily, heavily against you. Think of it this way: if you were in Vegas and there was a game that involved betting 200k, and there was a 98% chance you'd lose, would you play that game or would you keep walking?

Why do you want to go to law school? What's your dream job? How would you pay for it?


Lol. That's the thing, I have from now until February to prep. I'm going to treat prepping for the test like a full time job. So by saying jumping 20+ points is impossible, really isn't the case :D . I still am going to pursue a J.D. degree.

And btw, if the game were 'chance' rather than learning a skill, then I wouldn't play. If it's skill, as this test is, then I would play.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:51 am

xstephh34x wrote:And you know someone who scored a 137 twice and worked hard isn't capable of scoring above that? Wow. Where's your crystal ball? I'm curious to see what else the future has in store.


So much special snowflaking and yet so little LSAT proficiency. Amazing level of arrogance against all objective evidence to the contrary.

Don't go to law school. The score increase that would be necessary to make it a worthwhile investment (30 points) is literally unheard of. That's how we can say for sure you won't do it. No one else is really saying things as bluntly as you need to hear them, so here goes: All evidence indicates you don't have the logical skills required to be a successful lawyer. You just don't. It's not an indictment of you as a person, it's just a sign that law school is absolutely not for you, even if it's your dream. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. Find something else that makes you happy, before you make the biggest mistake of your life.

Folks, you know how we wonder why people go to TTTs even when presented with clear evidence that they ruin lives, and then we postulate that anyone who could figure that out is going to a better school anyway? This is Exhibit A.

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romothesavior
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:54 am

20-30 points is a huuuuuuge jump. Not saying its impossible, but odds are heavily stacked against you. If you studied for your LSAT and 137 is the best you could muster, it is likely that you simply lack the reasoning skills necessary to do well on the exam. If you insist on trying it one more time, I think tutoring is your best bet. It's probably the only chance (albeit a small one) you have of getting enough points on your retake to make law school even marginally worth the investment. Be prepared to take a different route if you can't crack 160.

Also, the 2% odds he's talking about are the odds of getting a good job from a tier 4. Sure, its not purely luck, but a lot of luck is involved. Also, its very difficult to know how you'll do in law school, so you really should approach it as though luck is involved, like a roulette wheel or something. Odds are you'll be around median somewhere. Plenty of smart and hard-working people end up outside the top 10%, and at a school like Cooley or Charlotte, you'd have to be damn near valedictorian to get a job that would help you pay off your crazy debts.

Third time now: did you look at the job data I posted earlier? You need to do your research. It is clear you don't have any idea what you're getting into.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby TheSpanishMain » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:02 am

There's also a thread somewhere around here where a real, live Cooley student answers questions. He does not say anything positive.

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romothesavior
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:02 am

TheSpanishMain wrote:There's also a thread somewhere around here where a real, live Cooley student answers questions. He does not say anything positive.

I posted it above. OP seems to be ignoring everything I've said.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:27 am

Has anyone ever heard of a jump of 20+ points for someone who didn't suffer some sort of major medical injury during their first exam? Or a jump that high after scoring the same crappy score twice? Ever? I'm trying to determine if we even know this scenario we've bandied about to exist.

Here's the repeater data for 137: n=852, mean 139.8, 580 higher, 46 same, 226 lower.

120s: 17
130s: 388
140s: 425
150s: 22
160+: 0

Given no Bayesian factors to suggest 137 is an anomaly, you'd rightly estimate OP's chances at a 160+ as 0/852 or very close. Those 150s are almost certainly on the low end. The repeater data for 135 (n=622) shows 4 150s, giving you a more clear estimate of the chances of improving by 15+ points (4/610). Matter of fact, we can demonstrate the odds of improving by a given amount based on particular scores, broken down by the ten-point ranges the repeater data gives.

Odds of improving by 15+ points, by data from given scores:

125 (repeat score of 140+): 5/62
135: (150+): 4/610
145: (160+): 11/1610
155: (170+): 2/1341

Total: 22/3623 (0.6%)

Odds of improving by 20+ points, by data from given sources:

120: (repeat score of 140+): 0/26
130: (150+): 1/277
140: (160+): 1/1214
150: (170+): 0/1377

Total: 2/2894 (0.07%)

For comparative purposes, 0.07% is slightly lower than the odds a given person in their early twenties will die in the next year, based on standard actuarial tables.

There is one instance in the data of a 30-point jump: A 127 going on to score in the 160s. There are six total verifiable instances of 20 point jumps.

The kind of jump you guys are talking about just doesn't happen.
Last edited by Monochromatic Oeuvre on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

LgllyBlnde
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby LgllyBlnde » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:27 am

stuckinthemiddle wrote:Well, if Elle Woods could do it...


Amen sister.

OP, my brother graduated from a Tier 4 three years ago. His numbers: 152 LSAT, 3.63 GPA. He got into a couple TTT's, but he got money from the Tier 4 (~ 20k a year), plus it was close to home (and his fiance). Long story short, he did great in law school - graduated #2 with a 3.93 GPA. He landed a job before graudation at a mid-sized firm in the city where the law school was located. His starting salary was $80K. He still works at this firm and has moved up quickly.

So, OP, you're right, it's not impossible to get a good job coming out of a Tier 4. However, my brother's one piece of advice to me when I started thinking about law school was to get into the best possible school I could with as much money as I could. He truly feels that his experience was pure luck. Most of his classmates are either unemployed or working in non-legal jobs. A few even went back to school to be paralegals. The most ironic part about my brother's story is that he met the hiring partner at his firm while he was working part time at a sporting goods store during winter break. My brother happened to have on a hat with his law school's name on it and the conversation went from there.

No one here is trying to discourage you from going after your dreams. However, you also need to realistic. Law school is a HUGE investment (both time & money). You do not want to be sitting in your 3L spring semester worried about getting a job to pay the $150K+ you have out in loans.

Good luck, OP. I hope you retake the LSAT and kill it.

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CyanIdes Of March
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby CyanIdes Of March » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:18 pm

I have a suspicion that the OP doesn't really even know what being a lawyer entails. We should spend the next page just posting horror stories to pop her out of the "being a lawyer is my dream" delusion. With a 137 and a degree from Cooley School of Scams, err, I mean Law, you won't be anywhere close to doing anything that constitutes a dream. Unless that dream is a nightmare.

Serious advice:
- Retake LSAT, find new career goals if you don't get over a 160.
- Do not attend either of those schools.
- Research the actual job you want to do because it seems like you don't quite know what being a lawyer really means. By the end of that research you might feel fortunate to have not excelled on your LSAT.

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md22
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby md22 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:57 am

xstephh34x wrote:
md22 wrote:
xstephh34x wrote:Hello,

So I applied to probably 15 schools. So far, I've received two acceptances. One to Charlotte Law School through their AAMPLE program and to Thomas Cooley School of Law.

I received so many rejections as a result of my LSAT scores. I took it twice this year and scored a 137 both times and had took a prep class both times (not making excuses but I have always tested low on standardized tests). I'm very determined and will not take no for an answer to law school in general.

I've been reading about Thomas Cooley School of Law's not so great reputation. Reading about it makes me nervous to attend.

Charlotte School of Law is stating that I would need to complete the AAMPLE program (which is taking two classes and trying to score above the required GPA they state) to be able to attend ACTUAL classes in the Spring. This would set me back a year as I would attend for the Spring and Fall and would hope to transfer to Fordham for Fall 2015. Ultimately, I would like to transfer to Fordham as it is my top choice. This program also is $500 and lasts from the beginning of September to the end of October.

I'm not sure what to do or where to go.

Help please? :D


In the event that this is real, please don't go to law school this year. Wait everyday and twice on Sunday.


And if someone told you to just give up on what you want to do because you haven't succeeded? Shut the hell up.


You just put words into my mouth. Don't tell me to "shut the hell up" while misconstruing what I said. That is totally out of line. I didn't say give up. In fact, I was implying the opposite. Wait, retake again, and reapply. A JD from Cooley will result in what can only be described as you having a SHIT TON of debt and VERY BAD job prospects. It's really quite simple. Retake and try to go to a better school for less.

Yasy13
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby Yasy13 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:48 am

I don't know why anyone is even responding if the OP is just going to get extremely defensive and angry. You do realize all these people are trying to help you, right OP?

I did really bad on my LSAT with a decent GPA. Right now I am on multiple waitlists and even if I get off one of them, I'm thinking I'm going to take a year off to retake and reapply and get in to a much better school with scholly, because my LSAT was terrible, low 150s. I think you should understand this is even MORE relevant to you.

I'm not at all going to say you won't succeed at law school. I think you can do anything you set your mind to, but that does NOT involve going to Cooley. And more importantly, if you are going to ask all the people on this forum, know you are going to get some pretty honest responses, and not always written in the kindest of words. No need to throw a fit, you shouldn't have written in here if you weren't ready for this.

I wish you the best of luck in your pursuit of a JD and that some of everyone's advice helps you!

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Clearly
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby Clearly » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:02 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Has anyone ever heard of a jump of 20+ points for someone who didn't suffer some sort of major medical injury during their first exam? Or a jump that high after scoring the same crappy score twice? Ever? I'm trying to determine if we even know this scenario we've bandied about to exist.

Here's the repeater data for 137: n=852, mean 139.8, 580 higher, 46 same, 226 lower.

120s: 17
130s: 388
140s: 425
150s: 22
160+: 0

Given no Bayesian factors to suggest 137 is an anomaly, you'd rightly estimate OP's chances at a 160+ as 0/852 or very close. Those 150s are almost certainly on the low end. The repeater data for 135 (n=622) shows 4 150s, giving you a more clear estimate of the chances of improving by 15+ points (4/610). Matter of fact, we can demonstrate the odds of improving by a given amount based on particular scores, broken down by the ten-point ranges the repeater data gives.

Odds of improving by 15+ points, by data from given scores:

125 (repeat score of 140+): 5/62
135: (150+): 4/610
145: (160+): 11/1610
155: (170+): 2/1341

Total: 22/3623 (0.6%)

Odds of improving by 20+ points, by data from given sources:

120: (repeat score of 140+): 0/26
130: (150+): 1/277
140: (160+): 1/1214
150: (170+): 0/1377

Total: 2/2894 (0.07%)

For comparative purposes, 0.07% is slightly lower than the odds a given person in their early twenties will die in the next year, based on standard actuarial tables.

There is one instance in the data of a 30-point jump: A 127 going on to score in the 160s. There are six total verifiable instances of 20 point jumps.

The kind of jump you guys are talking about just doesn't happen.

I jumped 26 from my diagnostic to my final official, and 12 from one official to my last official. Although I concede things are different between the op and I. Just being one data point of hope is all lol

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:39 pm

Clearlynotstefan wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Has anyone ever heard of a jump of 20+ points for someone who didn't suffer some sort of major medical injury during their first exam? Or a jump that high after scoring the same crappy score twice? Ever? I'm trying to determine if we even know this scenario we've bandied about to exist.

Here's the repeater data for 137: n=852, mean 139.8, 580 higher, 46 same, 226 lower.

120s: 17
130s: 388
140s: 425
150s: 22
160+: 0

Given no Bayesian factors to suggest 137 is an anomaly, you'd rightly estimate OP's chances at a 160+ as 0/852 or very close. Those 150s are almost certainly on the low end. The repeater data for 135 (n=622) shows 4 150s, giving you a more clear estimate of the chances of improving by 15+ points (4/610). Matter of fact, we can demonstrate the odds of improving by a given amount based on particular scores, broken down by the ten-point ranges the repeater data gives.

Odds of improving by 15+ points, by data from given scores:

125 (repeat score of 140+): 5/62
135: (150+): 4/610
145: (160+): 11/1610
155: (170+): 2/1341

Total: 22/3623 (0.6%)

Odds of improving by 20+ points, by data from given sources:

120: (repeat score of 140+): 0/26
130: (150+): 1/277
140: (160+): 1/1214
150: (170+): 0/1377

Total: 2/2894 (0.07%)

For comparative purposes, 0.07% is slightly lower than the odds a given person in their early twenties will die in the next year, based on standard actuarial tables.

There is one instance in the data of a 30-point jump: A 127 going on to score in the 160s. There are six total verifiable instances of 20 point jumps.

The kind of jump you guys are talking about just doesn't happen.

I jumped 26 from my diagnostic to my final official, and 12 from one official to my last official. Although I concede things are different between the op and I. Just being one data point of hope is all lol

You also approached everything logically and based off objective data, and not based off of your feelings and dreams. Likely, you had a brain capable of elite achievement and just didn't have an education up to bar with your natural skills. People who approach life like OP are less likely to do well on a logic test, or any field where reasoning is more important than irrationality.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby ManoftheHour » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:01 pm

bananapeanutbutter wrote:You also approached everything logically and based off objective data, and not based off of your feelings and dreams. Likely, you had a brain capable of elite achievement and just didn't have an education up to bar with your natural skills. People who approach life like OP are less likely to do well on a logic test, or any field where reasoning is more important than irrationality.


That may or not be true but that does not mean OP isn't capable of more. We know the only prep she did was a TTT prep course. It's not like she went through all of the PTs, Manhattan bundle, and the PS books and got a sub 140 score. She probably took Kaplan and took the exam twice. If she didn't prep properly, then her scores CAN be a poor indication of her true LSAT ability.

And doesn't the fact that OP searched this forum, made a post, and is now considering taking another year to prep for the LSAT make her rational? It's not like she's covering her ears and going "Lalalalala no, I'm a special snowflake and I will succeed #1 at the TTTT and show you all."

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dr123
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby dr123 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:02 pm

Have you considered other options? Why do you want to go to law school so bad?

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby TheSpanishMain » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:13 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
bananapeanutbutter wrote:You also approached everything logically and based off objective data, and not based off of your feelings and dreams. Likely, you had a brain capable of elite achievement and just didn't have an education up to bar with your natural skills. People who approach life like OP are less likely to do well on a logic test, or any field where reasoning is more important than irrationality.


That may or not be true but that does not mean OP isn't capable of more.


I don't think anyone is arguing that she couldn't theoretically score higher, but rather, can she increase her score enough. Moving up to a 142 is totally doable, but it doesn't yield any better prospects. To actually have it matter, she'd need like 25 more points, which is not literally impossible but close.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Tier 4 School or wait?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:38 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
bananapeanutbutter wrote:You also approached everything logically and based off objective data, and not based off of your feelings and dreams. Likely, you had a brain capable of elite achievement and just didn't have an education up to bar with your natural skills. People who approach life like OP are less likely to do well on a logic test, or any field where reasoning is more important than irrationality.


That may or not be true but that does not mean OP isn't capable of more.


I don't think anyone is arguing that she couldn't theoretically score higher, but rather, can she increase her score enough. Moving up to a 142 is totally doable, but it doesn't yield any better prospects. To actually have it matter, she'd need like 25 more points, which is not literally impossible but close.


Agreed. This would be a completely different conversation if OP was trying to improve a 157 instead of a 137. Of course OP can, and probably will, improve her score the next time if she takes the LSAT again. I'm just saying OP shouldn't go to law school because it is almost literally impossible to improve enough for it to change the calculus of her decision. She could improve by 15 points (0.6% chance of doing so) and it would still be a bad idea to go to law school.




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