Tier 4 School or wait? Forum

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Aw c'mon Romo, I really, really want to believe no one who has a 137 would ever consider applying to law school. OP being a troll would be way less depressing than OP actually being a person considering a TTT.

Also, you can't possibly derail a thread when it never really left the station.

[Nova]

If Steph is real, then hopefully she can benefit from TLS and advice like bizzy's

Steph, clearly you have a long way to go until attendng law school becomes a good investment. I think you should study hard these next 4 and a half months and retake in December. The lsat forum here is an amazing resource. Read all the stickies of guides on the top.

Also strongly consider other career paths. Law school is a bad decision for most.

[bizzybone1313]

1. Derailing a thread by calling someone a troll/flame for seeking out legitimate advice will get you a timeout. Nothing in the OP really screams troll to me.
2. A post being "rude" is not a reason to report a post.

Thanks,
The Management

+1. Good thing TLS is finally starting to crack down on this, because peeps saying "troll" as a sport has really got annoying on TLS. As I have stated before, people do not wake up one day, randomly choose some profession's website and create threads to annoy everyone else. Most people create threads in order to get help or get something legimately answered for them.

[t-14orbust]

I was hoping you'd take my comment as indicating that you're ill-informed. Please don't go to Cooley, it is the laughing stock of tls. Also, did you not expect these kinda of posts when asking about a TTTT on top law schools.com?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

+1. Good thing TLS is finally starting to crack down on this, because peeps saying "troll" as a sport has really got annoying on TLS. As I have stated before, people do not wake up one day, randomly choose some profession's website and create threads to annoy everyone else. Most people create threads in order to get help or get something legimately answered for them.

I woke up today, went to Wall Street Oasis, and started asking how I could go work for Goldman Sachs because I'm super interested in like, M&A or whatever, and I want to laugh at poor people on the street while lighting my cigar with a Benjamin.

[md22]

Hello,

So I applied to probably 15 schools. So far, I've received two acceptances. One to Charlotte Law School through their AAMPLE program and to Thomas Cooley School of Law.

I received so many rejections as a result of my LSAT scores. I took it twice this year and scored a 137 both times and had took a prep class both times (not making excuses but I have always tested low on standardized tests). I'm very determined and will not take no for an answer to law school in general.

I've been reading about Thomas Cooley School of Law's not so great reputation. Reading about it makes me nervous to attend.

Charlotte School of Law is stating that I would need to complete the AAMPLE program (which is taking two classes and trying to score above the required GPA they state) to be able to attend ACTUAL classes in the Spring. This would set me back a year as I would attend for the Spring and Fall and would hope to transfer to Fordham for Fall 2015. Ultimately, I would like to transfer to Fordham as it is my top choice. This program also is $500 and lasts from the beginning of September to the end of October.

I'm not sure what to do or where to go.

Help please?

In the event that this is real, please don't go to law school this year. Wait everyday and twice on Sunday.

[xstephh34x]

I still believe this to be a troll.

If you really did get a 137, and did not suffer an aneurysm in the middle of both exams, don't go to law school. You should probably consider a helmet and crayons instead.

Also, there are great opportunities for people with your intellectual capabilities to be congresswomen from Minnesota.

1) This post is NOT a troll. STOP saying that.
2) Don't tell me to just give up because I've scored a 137 both times
3) I'm not from Minnesota.

Your post is not helpful whatsoever.

[xstephh34x]

Hello,

So I applied to probably 15 schools. So far, I've received two acceptances. One to Charlotte Law School through their AAMPLE program and to Thomas Cooley School of Law.

I received so many rejections as a result of my LSAT scores. I took it twice this year and scored a 137 both times and had took a prep class both times (not making excuses but I have always tested low on standardized tests). I'm very determined and will not take no for an answer to law school in general.

I've been reading about Thomas Cooley School of Law's not so great reputation. Reading about it makes me nervous to attend.

Charlotte School of Law is stating that I would need to complete the AAMPLE program (which is taking two classes and trying to score above the required GPA they state) to be able to attend ACTUAL classes in the Spring. This would set me back a year as I would attend for the Spring and Fall and would hope to transfer to Fordham for Fall 2015. Ultimately, I would like to transfer to Fordham as it is my top choice. This program also is $500 and lasts from the beginning of September to the end of October.

I'm not sure what to do or where to go.

Help please?

In the event that this is real, please don't go to law school this year. Wait everyday and twice on Sunday.

And if someone told you to just give up on what you want to do because you haven't succeeded? Shut the hell up.

[xstephh34x]

I was hoping you'd take my comment as indicating that you're ill-informed. Please don't go to Cooley, it is the laughing stock of tls. Also, did you not expect these kinda of posts when asking about a TTTT on top law schools.com?

If you people had compassion for others, you wouldn't use this opportunity to answer my post with your snide, rude, ill-minded comments telling me to give up and that I won't succeed. It is COMPLETELY unnecessary. I'm looking for legitimate advice. Don't act like just because you were accepted into a better school, that you're above everyone. Have a heart and try to HELP others out, not make fun of them and say they won't be successful.

You don't know me or my story. So stop being so quick to judge.

[MarcusAurelius]

1. Derailing a thread by calling someone a troll/flame for seeking out legitimate advice will get you a timeout. Nothing in the OP really screams troll to me.
2. A post being "rude" is not a reason to report a post.

Thanks,
The Management

I want 2 enter u.

[ManoftheHour]

OP, don't go to either of these schools. At any cost.

That does not mean don't become an attorney though.

How much studying did you do for the LSAT? Have you done every exam in existence? Have you read through the Manhattan bundle? Powerscore? Have you drilled the Cambridge packets? If not, you haven't peaked. If you barely studied, those bad LSAT scores are a very poor indication of your LSAT ability. For all we know, you could get a 170 next time. And that's not farfetched to believe at all.

Don't be afraid to postpone your dream. I've done it and am still doing it and I've no regrets. I've taken the LSAT 3 times and am taking it a 4th. I'm going to study smarter, and not harder this time. Going to work on my weak points. Going to drill, because I totally neglected drilling. Sometimes, I can't believe I'm taking another year off to reapply. But I know that even if I end up with the same options, I'll rest easy I gave it my all to put myself in the best position. Despite my string of low 160s, I still believe I can crack the 170 barrier on my last attempt.

Not long ago, I made this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=203182

OP, take a year off. Study, work, save some money.

After you blow the LSAT out of the water, you have a few months of freedom before attending your T1 or T14.

Use that time to travel and be fun and exciting.

After that, go to law school.

Dominate.

[xstephh34x]

OP, don't go to either of these schools. At any cost.

That does not mean don't become an attorney though.

How much studying did you do for the LSAT? Have you done every exam in existence? Have you read through the Manhattan bundle? Powerscore? Have you drilled the Cambridge packets? If not, you haven't peaked. If you barely studied, those bad LSAT scores are a very poor indication of your LSAT ability. For all we know, you could get a 170 next time. And that's not farfetched to believe at all.

Don't be afraid to postpone your dream. I've done it and am still doing it and I've no regrets. I've taken the LSAT 3 times and am taking it a 4th. I'm going to study smarter, and not harder this time. Going to work on my weak points. Going to drill, because I totally neglected drilling. Sometimes, I can't believe I'm taking another year off to reapply. But I know that even if I end up with the same options, I'll rest easy I gave it my all to put myself in the best position. Despite my string of low 160s, I still believe I can crack the 170 barrier on my last attempt.

Not long ago, I made this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=203182

OP, take a year off. Study, work, save some money.

After you blow the LSAT out of the water, you have a few months of freedom before attending your T1 or T14.

Use that time to travel and be fun and exciting.

After that, go to law school.

Dominate.

Thank you so much for your advice. As sad as it seems, you are one of the few people who have been helpful and willing to give encouragement and I greatly appreciate it. I definitely think I am going to take your advice and postpone law school by cranking for the LSAT for the third time.

Thanks again

[TheSpanishMain]

Every attorney I know, particularly those who graduated in the last five years, has said some version of this, "If you can't score above x (usually mid-160s) on the LSAT, do not go to law school. You won't get into a school that will make the investment worthwhile."

Please understand that people ARE giving you advice when they tell you not to go. They're trying to prevent you from burying yourself in debt at a school that almost certainly will not lead to a decent job.

Retake the LSAT and really, really study for it. If your score jumps dramatically, great. You might have some reasonable options. If you are still scoring in the same range, you should not go to law school. I'm not trying to be an asshole; it's just the most rational thing to do in that situation.

Sometimes things just don't pan out. I'd love to be a quarterback in the NFL making millions of dollars and banging cheerleaders. Unfortunately, I'm a 5'11, 170 guy with no particular talent for football. It ain't gonna happen, no matter how hard I wish or believe in myself. You need to be honest with yourself and realistic about your options. It's not like law school is the only way to have a fulfilling career.

Also, OP: What is your GPA? This isn't me trying to make fun of you, just me trying to gauge how much of a jump in your LSAT you'd need.

[romothesavior]

Thank you so much for your advice. As sad as it seems, you are one of the few people who have been helpful and willing to give encouragement and I greatly appreciate it. I definitely think I am going to take your advice and postpone law school by cranking for the LSAT for the third time.

Thanks again

I agree with everything ManoftheHour just told you. If you really want to go to law school, I strongly encourage you to take the LSAT again and pick up 20-30 points before this becomes a viable option. I know you think that other people are being "rude" for telling you not to go to either of these law schools under any circumstance, or to perhaps forego law school altogether, but that's really not bad advice either. It's not the advice you want, but it may very well be the advice you need.

A 137 is a very, very poor LSAT score. I'm not saying that to be insulting; I'm saying it because it will objectively prevent you from going to a school worth going to at a price worth paying. Right now you are looking at paying sticker for two of the absolute worst scam schools in the country. Cooley is considered by many in the legal community to be the very worst law school in the country, and is possibly the biggest joke due to the brainwashing of their students and the fact that they publish their own law school rankings that place themselves second in the country, ahead of Yale, Chicago, Columbia, etc. (check out this thread:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... it=+cooley) Charlotte is a for-profit school, which should send up a huge red flag. Have you investigated law school employment statistics? These schools are among the very worst:

Cooley: 25% employed in full-time, permanent, JD-required jobs 9 months after graduation
Charlotte: 35% employed in full-time, permanent, JD-required jobs 9 months after graduation

Both schools cost in the neighborhood of $200,000 and place around 1% of their students into firms of 100+. Most of rest of the employed students wind up at firms of 2-10 (low pay), and the ones who can't find real legal jobs are forced to take jobs as doc reviewers, baristas, go back to their pre-law school industry, etc. How do you plan to pay off your debts without a legal job, or a legal job that pays south of 50k? You realize that your loan payments from either school will be over $2,000 a month?

If you can't get your score up a LOT, I'd strongly consider not going to law school. I understand that it is your "dream," but there are lots of ways that you can work in a law practice that don't cost you six figures of debt in exchange or pitiful job prospects. I know this is hard to hear, but avoiding law school like the plague is probably the best bet for your future.

[bananapeanutbutter]

OP, the issue is not so much that you scored a 137 as much as it is that the only schools that accept students with a 137 are just driven by immediately profits, and not trusted by employers as a source for hiring.

All law schools are profit driven, but quality law schools in this country are equally concerned with long term profits (i.e. their students who become rich down the road donating money to them, alumni giving more because of growth in prestige) as they are with getting your tuition money. The schools that will take your 137 don't give you a very good shot at all for employment, which is an issue when you take out 200k.

I would consider bypassing law school, because even with a 150 you're still in a similar boat. You really need over a 20 point gain to make law school worth it.

To score a 137 there are clearly many baseline model concepts you do not understand. I would consider 1 on 1 tutoring.

If you're a passionate wannabe lawyer, and won't take no for an answer, take that attitude and apply it to your LSAT studying, not to jumping into law school. You can use this passion to give yourself a real chance at becoming an employed lawyer. You would also improve at the type of thinking tested in law school so would do better once there as well.

Think about it like this - the schools you mention are some of the very worst in the COUNTRY in placing lawyers. You need to take special classes to maybe have a shot at them. Irrespective of $ the thought of spending 6 months for this instead of just a retake with intense studying showcases poor judgment.

[JJ123]

If you go to Cooley, and attempt to practice law, people will literally laugh at you. I'm not even done with my undergrad yet, and when my wife informed me that an acquantance went to Cooley Law, I literally burst out laughing.

In no way am I being sarcastic when I say this: I think your return on investment would be higher going through manager training at McDonald's than going to Cooley on a full-ride scholarship.

[CTT]

OP, don't go to either of these schools. At any cost.

That does not mean don't become an attorney though.

How much studying did you do for the LSAT? Have you done every exam in existence? Have you read through the Manhattan bundle? Powerscore? Have you drilled the Cambridge packets? If not, you haven't peaked. If you barely studied, those bad LSAT scores are a very poor indication of your LSAT ability. For all we know, you could get a 170 next time. And that's not farfetched to believe at all.

Don't be afraid to postpone your dream. I've done it and am still doing it and I've no regrets. I've taken the LSAT 3 times and am taking it a 4th. I'm going to study smarter, and not harder this time. Going to work on my weak points. Going to drill, because I totally neglected drilling. Sometimes, I can't believe I'm taking another year off to reapply. But I know that even if I end up with the same options, I'll rest easy I gave it my all to put myself in the best position. Despite my string of low 160s, I still believe I can crack the 170 barrier on my last attempt.

Not long ago, I made this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=203182

OP, take a year off. Study, work, save some money.

After you blow the LSAT out of the water, you have a few months of freedom before attending your T1 or T14.

Use that time to travel and be fun and exciting.

After that, go to law school.

Dominate.

Thank you so much for your advice. As sad as it seems, you are one of the few people who have been helpful and willing to give encouragement and I greatly appreciate it. I definitely think I am going to take your advice and postpone law school by cranking for the LSAT for the third time.

Thanks again

I know I'm saying what others have already said (see above), but people on TLS have serious doubts about whether the likes of UVA, Duke, Michigan and Georgetown are worth full price. When someone asks if Cooley or Charlotte is a better choice, the gut response is that the person either needs a heavy dose of reality or they're trying to elicit jokes about these schools (which many of us honestly enjoy making).

If you've tried hard and you've gotten a 137 twice, you should consider whether law school is for you. People on TLS probably don't realize that there are more people below 137 than above 167, so it's not like you're alone. It's nice to be told that you just need to spend more time on the LSAT, you'll go T14, end up making six-figures, and become Emperor of the Universe. The reality is that most people who score a 137 are never going to be able to score 160 or better.

If you really like law, you should consider A Career as a Paralegal or a non-J.D. court clerk.

If I'm feeding the troll, I apologize, too much time in the day.

[RodneyRuxin]

Chances are those 1/4 of Cooley grads with jobs networked their asses off and got lucky and I don't think you'll succeed at that from what I've seen you post on TLS (you have a horrible attitude, even considering the circumstances, just horrible).


If you go to law school without getting one of the biggest score increases of anyone on this site, you will likely be unemployed.

Additionally, since you've taken the test twice and you have gotten the same score both times, in the event you do get the score increase, you'll want to write a very convincing addendum because schools are likely to distrust the new score (I know common knowledge on TLS is that schools only take the highest, but in your case that won't entirely be true).

There are plenty of other professions to get into, whatever you think you know about being a lawyer from TV, odds are you'll likely never be Harvey Spectre or even Casey Novak. Please, please, PLEASE consider another career.

ETA sorry for FTT, wanted to make an SVU reference.

[xstephh34x]

OP, don't go to either of these schools. At any cost.

That does not mean don't become an attorney though.

How much studying did you do for the LSAT? Have you done every exam in existence? Have you read through the Manhattan bundle? Powerscore? Have you drilled the Cambridge packets? If not, you haven't peaked. If you barely studied, those bad LSAT scores are a very poor indication of your LSAT ability. For all we know, you could get a 170 next time. And that's not farfetched to believe at all.

Don't be afraid to postpone your dream. I've done it and am still doing it and I've no regrets. I've taken the LSAT 3 times and am taking it a 4th. I'm going to study smarter, and not harder this time. Going to work on my weak points. Going to drill, because I totally neglected drilling. Sometimes, I can't believe I'm taking another year off to reapply. But I know that even if I end up with the same options, I'll rest easy I gave it my all to put myself in the best position. Despite my string of low 160s, I still believe I can crack the 170 barrier on my last attempt.

Not long ago, I made this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=203182

OP, take a year off. Study, work, save some money.

After you blow the LSAT out of the water, you have a few months of freedom before attending your T1 or T14.

Use that time to travel and be fun and exciting.

After that, go to law school.

Dominate.

Thank you so much for your advice. As sad as it seems, you are one of the few people who have been helpful and willing to give encouragement and I greatly appreciate it. I definitely think I am going to take your advice and postpone law school by cranking for the LSAT for the third time.

Thanks again

I know I'm saying what others have already said (see above), but people on TLS have serious doubts about whether the likes of UVA, Duke, Michigan and Georgetown are worth full price. When someone asks if Cooley or Charlotte is a better choice, the gut response is that the person either needs a heavy dose of reality or they're trying to elicit jokes about these schools (which many of us honestly enjoy making).

If you've tried hard and you've gotten a 137 twice, you should consider whether law school is for you. People on TLS probably don't realize that there are more people below 137 than above 167, so it's not like you're alone. It's nice to be told that you just need to spend more time on the LSAT, you'll go T14, end up making six-figures, and become Emperor of the Universe. The reality is that most people who score a 137 are never going to be able to score 160 or better.

If you really like law, you should consider a career as a paralegal or a non-J.D. court clerk.

If I'm feeding the troll, I apologize, too much time in the day.

And you know someone who scored a 137 twice and worked hard isn't capable of scoring above that? Wow. Where's your crystal ball? I'm curious to see what else the future has in store.

[xstephh34x]

Chances are those 1/4 of Cooley grads with jobs networked their asses off and got lucky and I don't think you'll succeed at that from what I've seen you post on TLS (you have a horrible attitude, even considering the circumstances, just horrible).


If you go to law school without getting one of the biggest score increases of anyone on this site, you will likely be unemployed.

Additionally, since you've taken the test twice and you have gotten the same score both times, in the event you do get the score increase, you'll want to write a very convincing addendum because schools are likely to distrust the new score (I know common knowledge on TLS is that schools only take the highest, but in your case that won't entirely be true).

There are plenty of other professions to get into, whatever you think you know about being a lawyer from TV, odds are you'll likely never be Harvey Spectre or even Casey Novak. Please, please, PLEASE consider another career.

ETA sorry for FTT, wanted to make an SVU reference.

Lol horrible attitude? You don't know my story at all. And BTW, people who have scored low are capable of succeeding. My score doesn't automatically determine that I won't be successful.

[politics89]

OP, don't go to either of these schools. At any cost.

That does not mean don't become an attorney though.

How much studying did you do for the LSAT? Have you done every exam in existence? Have you read through the Manhattan bundle? Powerscore? Have you drilled the Cambridge packets? If not, you haven't peaked. If you barely studied, those bad LSAT scores are a very poor indication of your LSAT ability. For all we know, you could get a 170 next time. And that's not farfetched to believe at all.

Don't be afraid to postpone your dream. I've done it and am still doing it and I've no regrets. I've taken the LSAT 3 times and am taking it a 4th. I'm going to study smarter, and not harder this time. Going to work on my weak points. Going to drill, because I totally neglected drilling. Sometimes, I can't believe I'm taking another year off to reapply. But I know that even if I end up with the same options, I'll rest easy I gave it my all to put myself in the best position. Despite my string of low 160s, I still believe I can crack the 170 barrier on my last attempt.

Not long ago, I made this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=203182

OP, take a year off. Study, work, save some money.

After you blow the LSAT out of the water, you have a few months of freedom before attending your T1 or T14.

Use that time to travel and be fun and exciting.

After that, go to law school.

Dominate.

Thank you so much for your advice. As sad as it seems, you are one of the few people who have been helpful and willing to give encouragement and I greatly appreciate it. I definitely think I am going to take your advice and postpone law school by cranking for the LSAT for the third time.

Thanks again

I know I'm saying what others have already said (see above), but people on TLS have serious doubts about whether the likes of UVA, Duke, Michigan and Georgetown are worth full price. When someone asks if Cooley or Charlotte is a better choice, the gut response is that the person either needs a heavy dose of reality or they're trying to elicit jokes about these schools (which many of us honestly enjoy making).

If you've tried hard and you've gotten a 137 twice, you should consider whether law school is for you. People on TLS probably don't realize that there are more people below 137 than above 167, so it's not like you're alone. It's nice to be told that you just need to spend more time on the LSAT, you'll go T14, end up making six-figures, and become Emperor of the Universe. The reality is that most people who score a 137 are never going to be able to score 160 or better.

If you really like law, you should consider a career as a paralegal or a non-J.D. court clerk.

If I'm feeding the troll, I apologize, too much time in the day.

And you know someone who scored a 137 twice and worked hard isn't capable of scoring above that? Wow. Where's your crystal ball? I'm curious to see what else the future has in store.

You might want to check this out: http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... erdata.pdf

[TheSpanishMain]

And you know someone who scored a 137 twice and worked hard isn't capable of scoring above that? Wow. Where's your crystal ball? I'm curious to see what else the future has in store.

He said most people. It isn't impossible, it's just really, really, really unlikely. With studying, you might improve, but you need to improve A LOT. What happened on your last LSATs? Did you run out of time? Did you not understand the questions? Did you feel confident and still scored poorly?

What is your undergraduate GPA?

[xstephh34x]

And you know someone who scored a 137 twice and worked hard isn't capable of scoring above that? Wow. Where's your crystal ball? I'm curious to see what else the future has in store.

He said most people. It isn't impossible, it's just really, really, really unlikely. With studying, you might improve, but you need to improve A LOT. What happened on your last LSATs? Did you run out of time? Did you not understand the questions? Did you feel confident and still scored poorly?

What is your undergraduate GPA?

In both LSATs, I ran out of time and had to guess on literally 10+ questions. Are there any intensive LSAT courses that anyone would recommend?

I had a 3.5 GPA in undergrad.

[romothesavior]

Lol horrible attitude? You don't know my story at all. And BTW, people who have scored low are capable of succeeding. My score doesn't automatically determine that I won't be successful.

A low LSAT score isn't conclusive evidence that one won't succeed as a lawyer, but there is a very strong presumption that you won't. Job placement is strongly correlated with quality of school, and the schools you're talking about here are very, very poor options.

Did you see my post above? Did you look at the job data for these two schools? Have you considered how you will service your massive debt on a low-paying job?

[TheSpanishMain]

And you know someone who scored a 137 twice and worked hard isn't capable of scoring above that? Wow. Where's your crystal ball? I'm curious to see what else the future has in store.

He said most people. It isn't impossible, it's just really, really, really unlikely. With studying, you might improve, but you need to improve A LOT. What happened on your last LSATs? Did you run out of time? Did you not understand the questions? Did you feel confident and still scored poorly?

What is your undergraduate GPA?

In both LSATs, I ran out of time and had to guess on literally 10+ questions. Are there any intensive LSAT courses that anyone would recommend?

I had a 3.5 GPA in undergrad.

Well, at least your GPA is fine. Look through the LSAT prep forum for methods.

All that said, know that the kind of jump you'd need would be almost unheard of. You need like an extra 20 points. That would be a monumental leap, and it's still only enough to get you into mediocre regionals.

You need to strongly consider not pursuing a JD. Yeah, it's possible that it could work out, but the odds would be heavily, heavily against you. Think of it this way: if you were in Vegas and there was a game that involved betting 200k, and there was a 98% chance you'd lose, would you play that game or would you keep walking?

Why do you want to go to law school? What's your dream job? How would you pay for it?