Chicago v. Penn?

Share Your Experiences, Read About Other Experiences. Please keep posts organized by school and expected year of graduation.
missgrace
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:35 pm

Chicago v. Penn?

Postby missgrace » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:54 pm

Hey everyone,

Chicago's seat deposit is tomorrow, so this is terribly last minute, and I would really appreciate your input! I am deciding between Chicago and Penn with equal, not terribly significant scholarships. I loved both of the schools when I attended ASW and have been going back and forth for weeks. I am extremely attracted to the rigorous academic environment Chicago stresses but liked the atmosphere more at Penn, but I also felt that the schools were quite similar in terms of opportunities. Ultimately, I am interested in biglaw in NYC or Chicago. I am from GA and do not want to return to the South, so I am concerned with the issue of "ties" when finding a job.

Thank you!

User avatar
porch
Posts: 276
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:43 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby porch » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:00 am

missgrace wrote:Hey everyone,

Chicago's seat deposit is tomorrow, so this is terribly last minute, and I would really appreciate your input! I am deciding between Chicago and Penn with equal, not terribly significant scholarships. I loved both of the schools when I attended ASW and have been going back and forth for weeks. I am extremely attracted to the rigorous academic environment Chicago stresses but liked the atmosphere more at Penn, but I also felt that the schools were quite similar in terms of opportunities. Ultimately, I am interested in biglaw in NYC or Chicago. I am from GA and do not want to return to the South, so I am concerned with the issue of "ties" when finding a job.

Thank you!


Wrong board but it comes down to where you'd rather work you have to figure that out before you can figure out what school is a better fit. Personally I'd pick the better school if I was having a touch decision. However penn places really well with nlj250

User avatar
Tekrul
Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:17 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby Tekrul » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:03 am

With biglaw interest, both schools are very good. If you have no other distinguishing preferences and can handle the COA then I'd say go Chicago. If you prefer Chicago (the city) to NYC to end up working in then I'd go Chicago. If you prefer NYC to Chicago (the city), I'd go Penn.

User avatar
sinfiery
Posts: 3308
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:55 am

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby sinfiery » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:33 am

Chicago.

Pope Francis
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:41 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby Pope Francis » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:39 am

Tekrul wrote:With biglaw interest, both schools are very good. If you have no other distinguishing preferences and can handle the COA then I'd say go Chicago. If you prefer Chicago (the city) to NYC to end up working in then I'd go Chicago. If you prefer NYC to Chicago (the city), I'd go Penn Chicago.

Big Dog
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:34 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby Big Dog » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:00 am

The issue of ties is much less important in NYC. But still, only YOU can decide which is more important as a place to work after LS: NYC or Chicago.

User avatar
JO 14
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:01 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby JO 14 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:11 am

Other than the city of Chicago, Penn is the best choice for most everywhere else.

mambar
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:11 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby mambar » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:48 am

JO 14 wrote:Other than the city of Chicago, Penn is the best choice for most everywhere else.

?

User avatar
Clearly
Posts: 4166
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby Clearly » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:00 am

JO 14 wrote:Other than the city of Chicago, Penn is the best choice for most everywhere else.

This is just not supported. They place equally well in a number of markets...

User avatar
TaipeiMort
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:51 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby TaipeiMort » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:02 am

missgrace wrote:Hey everyone,

Chicago's seat deposit is tomorrow, so this is terribly last minute, and I would really appreciate your input! I am deciding between Chicago and Penn with equal, not terribly significant scholarships. I loved both of the schools when I attended ASW and have been going back and forth for weeks. I am extremely attracted to the rigorous academic environment Chicago stresses but liked the atmosphere more at Penn, but I also felt that the schools were quite similar in terms of opportunities. Ultimately, I am interested in biglaw in NYC or Chicago. I am from GA and do not want to return to the South, so I am concerned with the issue of "ties" when finding a job.

Thank you!


Both should help you get to New York, as ties are less needed. You won't be able to get to Chicago from Penn without ties most likely. I mean, Penn is a great school, so is Chicago. Chicago has a better reach across the country. However, this is basically due to having the highest number of partners in relation to graduates of any school, AND a very small graduating class. This means if you have ties to an area, Chicago will help you get there.

BUT, if you only want New York biglaw, the main advantages of Chicago-- broad placement and advantage in clerkships don't matter. Choose the school you want.

kthoma23
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:59 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby kthoma23 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:22 am

When I was at Chicago ASW, I met someone from GA, went to UGA for undergrad in fact. Anyways, I am a Chicago native and would go to Chicago. Both schools are pretty even with big firm placement numbers however Chicago is such a great city and there is always something new because it is a huge diverse city. Honestly, I think this is what the decision comes down to. Hopefully see you in the fall.

Mal Reynolds
Posts: 12630
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:16 am

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:26 am

JO 14 wrote:Other than the city of Chicago, Penn is the best choice for most everywhere else.

You and Renee walker are the same person and you both need to stop giving your opinions here and in the lounge.

User avatar
LSATSCORES2012
Posts: 770
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:12 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby LSATSCORES2012 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:30 am

TaipeiMort wrote:However, this is basically due to having the highest number of partners in relation to graduates of any school, AND a very small graduating class.

This is an interesting statistic about Chicago that I hadn't heard. Source?

User avatar
TaipeiMort
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:51 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby TaipeiMort » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:37 am

LSATSCORES2012 wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:However, this is basically due to having the highest number of partners in relation to graduates of any school, AND a very small graduating class.

This is an interesting statistic about Chicago that I hadn't heard. Source?


It is below, but I would think that location of partners also matters, and isn't taken into account in these rankings. For example, if all of your partners are at the same 15 firms and 20 offices, it will be harder to break into new markets than if the partners were more spread out across the country. It would be a nice project for someone to take on, so we could finally have a clear picture as to where grads are going.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=162542

Since 1986, NLJ 250 firms

School Class Size Partners Weighted

Chicago 195 426 2.184615385
Harvard 577 946 1.639514731
Virginia 374 527 1.409090909
Stanford 173 240 1.387283237
Northwestern 284 365 1.285211268
Yale 198 253 1.277777778
Penn 272 329 1.209558824
Michigan 372 444 1.193548387
Columbia 433 516 1.191685912
Boston University 270 317 1.174074074
Georgetown 644 729 1.131987578
NYU 483 543 1.124223602
Cornell 192 204 1.0625
Duke 213 219 1.028169014
Texas 379 384 1.013192612
Berkeley 296 287 0.969594595
Illinois 195 183 0.938461538
Notre Dame 172 159 0.924418605
Vanderbilt 208 186 0.894230769
George Washington 513 447 0.871345029
Boston College 265 213 0.803773585
USC 195 151 0.774358974
UCLA 350 257 0.734285714
Fordham 479 306 0.638830898
Villanova 235 137 0.582978723
Emory 255 148 0.580392157
Loyola-Chicago 266 154 0.578947368
Hastings 419 233 0.556085919
WUSTL 269 149 0.553903346
Pittsburgh * 235 130 0.553191489
Temple 293 160 0.546075085
Houston 284 153 0.538732394
SMU 259 132 0.50965251
Tulane 252 125 0.496031746
Catholic* 274 135 0.49270073
William & Mary 214 104 0.485981308
Ohio State 198 96 0.484848485
Wisconsin 252 121 0.48015873
North Carolina 237 109 0.459915612
Minnesota 284 130 0.457746479
Georgia 218 99 0.45412844
Maryland 242 105 0.433884298
Florida* 368 154 0.418478261
St. John’s 291 121 0.41580756
American* 449 179 0.398663697
Miami* 402 160 0.39800995
DePaul* 350 134 0.382857143
Loyola LA* 432 162 0.375
Chicago-Kent* 310 111 0.358064516
Brooklyn* 486 119 0.244855967
Last edited by TaipeiMort on Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
LSATSCORES2012
Posts: 770
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:12 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby LSATSCORES2012 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:39 am

TaipeiMort wrote:
LSATSCORES2012 wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:However, this is basically due to having the highest number of partners in relation to graduates of any school, AND a very small graduating class.

This is an interesting statistic about Chicago that I hadn't heard. Source?


http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=162542

Since 1986, NLJ 250 firms

School Class Size Partners Weighted

Chicago 195 426 2.184615385
Harvard 577 946 1.639514731
Virginia 374 527 1.409090909
Stanford 173 240 1.387283237
Northwestern 284 365 1.285211268
Yale 198 253 1.277777778
Penn 272 329 1.209558824
Michigan 372 444 1.193548387
Columbia 433 516 1.191685912
....

Wow, very interesting. Thanks!

ETA: looking at these numbers again... Chicago doesn't just seem to have an advantage... it really seems to dominate here.

nolatlien
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:20 am

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby nolatlien » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:41 am

I'm also from GA and want to keep my options open. I ended up choosing Chicago because of the smaller class size, academic rigor, and reputation. Turned down much cheaper options, although I did get a tiny scholarship as well. I don't think rankings matter much when discussing your two options, but I do think Chicago carries more weight across the country and opens more doors...

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby Blessedassurance » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:10 am

missgrace wrote:I am extremely attracted to the rigorous academic environment Chicago stresses


pray tell what you think the underlined means...

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby Blessedassurance » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:31 am

TaipeiMort wrote: Chicago has a better reach across the country. However, this is basically due to having the highest number of partners in relation to graduates of any school, AND a very small graduating class. This means if you have ties to an area, Chicago will help you get there.

BUT, if you only want New York biglaw, the main advantages of Chicago-- broad placement and advantage in clerkships don't matter. Choose the school you want.


1st, the partner ranking thing above, the original of which is reproduced below, is largely useless and should in no way factor into op's decision.

2nd, penn's size is not significantly larger than chicago's. the difference is about ~50 students.

3rd, see: http://www.swlaw.edu/pdfs/jle/jle622seto.pdf

tl;dr:
Are there any schools that are significant feeders in all ten of the largest U.S. markets? Only one: Harvard.


4th, the author, in anticipation of this per capita noise, explains the pitfalls of such a method

5th, there are reasonable arguments to convince op to choose chicago if he/she wants to work there without engaging in conjectures not supported by facts.

actually the argument could be made that op is probably better off heading to penn since he/she has no ties to each city and new york is more favorable to the tie-less law student.

disclaimer: i'm not advocating one school over the other, or advising law school to begin with.

User avatar
2014
Posts: 5831
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:53 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby 2014 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:28 am

Penn and Chicago both give most people an equally good shot at biglaw. Chicago gives you more options outside of it and more confidence at the lower end of the curve, neither of which should be ignored. Chicago is also cheaper than Penn.

I'd choose Chicago here unless the scholarship differential is meaningful or you want Philly.

drh_104
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:09 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby drh_104 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:10 am

I have been struggling with this exact same decision for a few weeks now. Ultimately, I think in the context of your individual career, going to Chicago vs. Penn will make almost no difference. So where Chicago may have a smidge more prestige, Penn not only places 'well' in big law, it places the best. http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... ctive=true (Granted, Chicago is #2).

With these two incredible choices, go to the school you want to go to, the city you want to be in. For me, that is Penn by a mile.

Big Dog
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:34 pm

Re: Chicago v. Penn?

Postby Big Dog » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:11 am

actually the argument could be made that op is probably better off heading to penn since he/she has no ties to each city and new york is more favorable to the tie-less law student.


Exactly. Other than that, the choice comes down to personal fit.




Return to “Law School Acceptances, Denials, and Waitlists”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], curry1, DoYouEvenTLS, ellielaw, joezze, Long shot hero, Motionsinlemons, Rich Uncle Skeleton, rizzlebizness, Sealy, TAD, Yahoo [Bot] and 21 guests