WUSTL c/o 2016 Applicants (2012-2013)

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wannabelawstudent
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby wannabelawstudent » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:03 am

I dunno if we've discussed this, but does anyone know if WUSTL will be cutting back class sizes even more this year? They gone down from 270 to 200 in just a few years and I wonder if the decrease in apps will force them to cut more.

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby DoveBodyWash » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:17 am

wannabelawstudent wrote:I dunno if we've discussed this, but does anyone know if WUSTL will be cutting back class sizes even more this year? They gone down from 270 to 200 in just a few years and I wonder if the decrease in apps will force them to cut more.


The class of 270 was a freak accident across all law schools. The application year for current 3L's saw the most applications in recent history, and immediately after that year applications took a nosedive. I don't think there are any T-20's or T14's that have less than 200 students per class..most major law schools hover around that headcount.

Personally, I think the general philosophy of the administration and the school's behavior this cycle points to them doing what it takes to boost medians. Remember that all schools get a revenue boost from transfer students (who almost always pay sticker and don't factor into a school's ranking). WUSTL could more than afford to shrink our class size, take a revenue hit for our 1L year, and then just shore-up revenue with transfers. Of course it would hurt our job prospects if they took too many transfer students. But even 25-35 transfers could provide a huge revenue boost. Even with 40 transfers our class (if it starts at around 200) would only be 240 at graduation, which is still significantly smaller than this year's 3L class. The current headcount for them is over 300 because of the transfers that were added to the original 270.

From the perspective of the school it's the best way to get everything they want. Higher medians from us, additional revenue from transfers. But I'm just speculating 8)

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Birdnals
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby Birdnals » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:43 am

Wustl gives so much scholarship money every year because they have a huge endowment. It's the same reason I don't think they worry too much about cutting class sizes.

http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... _scho.html

ETA: more recent number

http://lawschoolalmanac.blogspot.com/20 ... -2008.html

wannabelawstudent
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby wannabelawstudent » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:53 am

cusenation wrote:Personally, I think the general philosophy of the administration and the school's behavior this cycle points to them doing what it takes to boost medians. Remember that all schools get a revenue boost from transfer students (who almost always pay sticker and don't factor into a school's ranking). WUSTL could more than afford to shrink our class size, take a revenue hit for our 1L year, and then just shore-up revenue with transfers. Of course it would hurt our job prospects if they took too many transfer students. But even 25-35 transfers could provide a huge revenue boost. Even with 40 transfers our class (if it starts at around 200) would only be 240 at graduation, which is still significantly smaller than this year's 3L class. The current headcount for them is over 300 because of the transfers that were added to the original 270.

From the perspective of the school it's the best way to get everything they want. Higher medians from us, additional revenue from transfers. But I'm just speculating 8)

Dont forget to include people who transfer out (around 8 per year) and people who over the course of 3 years leave (drop out) which I think is around 40 total combined. And a high endowment could also mean they could survive a few years of smaller classes (but that's me being a negative Nancy).

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Unoriginalist
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby Unoriginalist » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:57 am

Gotta love the thread title. Great work, Dpro!

Happy Valentine's Day, ya'll! Fingers crossed we all get a hot date with scholarships today, because today marks the first day it is officially in the "late" part of "mid-to-late February"

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby DoveBodyWash » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:01 am

Birdnals wrote:Wustl gives so much scholarship money every year because they have a huge endowment. It's the same reason I don't think they worry too much about cutting class sizes.

http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... _scho.html

ETA: more recent number

http://lawschoolalmanac.blogspot.com/20 ... -2008.html


WUSTL's endowment is big, but I wonder why it is still significantly more generous with scholly than every school that's listed as having a bigger endowment. Maybe it's because the relative value of WUSTL's endowment is higher because of the area it's in?

Also, NYU with only $2million in endowment while being located in NYC? Jeez that must suck for them

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hhockberger
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby hhockberger » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:48 am

Just read through last night's uprising and I'd like to say that I'd follow Courtney Stodden to the ends of the earth.

Big Dog
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby Big Dog » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:58 am

WUSTL's endowment is big, but I wonder why it is still significantly more generous with scholly than every school that's listed as having a bigger endowment.


1) It's in fly-over country. Notre Dame also has to offer money to to attract matriculants (In contrast, Fordham can be stingy with money because NYC has thousands of neighboring folks lining up at the door to pay sticker.)
2) WashU in general, is a rankings johnny-come-lately. (Across the Uni, particularly undergrad and med, it has been focused on raising money and buying higher quality students. As such, over a generation, WashU has gone from an excellent regional undergrad, to a national named institution. It's med school has leaped past dozens of others to sit in the top 5.)
3) job prospects are dismal (13% Big Law), and compounded by not having a natural market employment base. Boston College has a natural market, for example, and nearly 50% increase in Big Law (22%). (While not everyone wants BL, anyone taking out a bunch of loans needs BL to pay them back.)

1&2 cost money. Lots of it.

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby DoveBodyWash » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:40 pm

Big Dog wrote:
WUSTL's endowment is big, but I wonder why it is still significantly more generous with scholly than every school that's listed as having a bigger endowment.


1) It's in fly-over country. Notre Dame also has to offer money to to attract matriculants (In contrast, Fordham can be stingy with money because NYC has thousands of neighboring folks lining up at the door to pay sticker.)
2) WashU in general, is a rankings johnny-come-lately. (Across the Uni, particularly undergrad and med, it has been focused on raising money and buying higher quality students. As such, over a generation, WashU has gone from an excellent regional undergrad, to a national named institution. It's med school has leaped past dozens of others to sit in the top 5.)
3) job prospects are dismal (13% Big Law), and compounded by not having a natural market employment base. Boston College has a natural market, for example, and nearly 50% increase in Big Law (22%). (While not everyone wants BL, anyone taking out a bunch of loans needs BL to pay them back.)

1&2 cost money. Lots of it.


+1

re: lack of natural market. You probably have a better grasp on the situation since I'm guessing you're a current student or grad, but I think WUSTL's historic lack of a fall-back market might be why it will weather the storm slightly better. Schools like GW, BC, BU all enjoyed having a home-market to absorb a lot of their grads..but once that stopped, placement was reduced significantly. Personally I think this is partly why those schools in particular have seen such a drastic increase in school-funded fellowship positions. In comparison WUSTL has never really had a home-market, even if WUSTL completely dominated St. Louis, the market is tiny. And WUSTL has never really been a true feeder to the Chicago market. Thus grads are forced to go elsewhere, which spreads the brand and increases the alumni base. It's true that grads are only leaving because they have to, but the result ends up being beneficial IMO.

Also, not to pick on BC (I'm from Boston and it's well-regarded here), but only placing 22% into BigLaw when they're virtually the 2nd-best school in Boston (a large, major market) and are in such close proximity to NYC (the biggest market) seems kind of sad. The same could be said of any of WUSTL's peer schools with similar placement that are located in major markets. I'm actually more impressed that WUSTL, a school in fly-over country and no market of its own, places 13% into BigLaw, especially when the only major market in close proximity is largely believed to have been hit hardest by the recession and is recovering the slowest.
Last edited by DoveBodyWash on Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.

wannabelawstudent
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby wannabelawstudent » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:41 pm

Sorry but where did you guys get that WUSTL is significantly more generous with scholly's?

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby DoveBodyWash » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:47 pm

wannabelawstudent wrote:Sorry but where did you guys get that WUSTL is significantly more generous with scholly's?


Maybe there's some real data elsewhere that others are basing this assumption on, but for me, it's a mixture of LSN, personal experience, and anecdotal evidence.

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alwayssunnyinfl
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby alwayssunnyinfl » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:51 pm

cusenation wrote:
wannabelawstudent wrote:Sorry but where did you guys get that WUSTL is significantly more generous with scholly's?


Maybe there's some real data elsewhere that others are basing this assumption on, but for me, it's a mixture of LSN, personal experience, and anecdotal evidence.

I think a lot of it, too, has to do with their apparent willingness to overlook lower GPAs in scholarship considerations, resulting in a lot of cases where splitters are given the choice of real scholarship money from WUSTL or sticker from higher ranked schools.

wannabelawstudent
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby wannabelawstudent » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:58 pm

cusenation wrote:
wannabelawstudent wrote:Sorry but where did you guys get that WUSTL is significantly more generous with scholly's?


Maybe there's some real data elsewhere that others are basing this assumption on, but for me, it's a mixture of LSN, personal experience, and anecdotal evidence.

https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... o=finances
There's some data, you can also click on the school's aba report for more detailed info. WUSTL seems to distance themselves in the Half to Full Scholarship and grant categories.

Tremendous
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby Tremendous » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:05 pm

cusenation wrote:
Big Dog wrote:
WUSTL's endowment is big, but I wonder why it is still significantly more generous with scholly than every school that's listed as having a bigger endowment.


1) It's in fly-over country. Notre Dame also has to offer money to to attract matriculants (In contrast, Fordham can be stingy with money because NYC has thousands of neighboring folks lining up at the door to pay sticker.)
2) WashU in general, is a rankings johnny-come-lately. (Across the Uni, particularly undergrad and med, it has been focused on raising money and buying higher quality students. As such, over a generation, WashU has gone from an excellent regional undergrad, to a national named institution. It's med school has leaped past dozens of others to sit in the top 5.)
3) job prospects are dismal (13% Big Law), and compounded by not having a natural market employment base. Boston College has a natural market, for example, and nearly 50% increase in Big Law (22%). (While not everyone wants BL, anyone taking out a bunch of loans needs BL to pay them back.)

1&2 cost money. Lots of it.


+1

re: lack of natural market. You probably have a better grasp on the situation since I'm guessing you're a current student or grad, but I think WUSTL's historic lack of a fall-back market might be why it will weather the storm slightly better. Schools like GW, BC, BU all enjoyed having a home-market to absorb a lot of their grads..but once that stopped, placement was reduced significantly. Personally I think this is partly why those schools in particular have seen such a drastic increase in school-funded fellowship positions. In comparison WUSTL has never really had a home-market, even if WUSTL completely dominated St. Louis, the market is tiny. And WUSTL has never really been a true feeder to the Chicago market. Thus grads are forced to go elsewhere, which spreads the brand and increases the alumni base. It's true that grads are only leaving because they have to, but the result ends up being beneficial IMO.

Also, not to pick on BC (I'm from Boston and it's well-regarded here), but only placing 22% into BigLaw when they're virtually the 2nd-best school in Boston (a large, major market) and are in such close proximity to NYC (the biggest market) seems kind of sad. The same could be said of any of WUSTL's peer schools with similar placement that are located in major markets. I'm actually more impressed that WUSTL, a school in fly-over country and no market of its own, places 13% into BigLaw, especially when the only major market in close proximity is largely believed to have been hit hardest by the recession and is recovering the slowest.


Not sure I really understand this logic. Even though BC's placement has fallen significantly from a few years ago, especially in biglaw, it has always been better than Wash U's. A quick look at LST bears this out - 68% long term legal jobs vs. 57.7%.

Just because Wash U has some structural reasons (mainly being in a small market and not placing that many into Chicago) for having lower numbers doesn't mean it's any more comforting or "impressive," at least in my opinion.

I love Wash U, but don't think this is at all an area of strength for them.

wannabelawstudent
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby wannabelawstudent » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:19 pm

Tremendous wrote:Not sure I really understand this logic. Even though BC's placement has fallen significantly from a few years ago, especially in biglaw, it has always been better than Wash U's. A quick look at LST bears this out - 68% long term legal jobs vs. 57.7%.

Just because Wash U has some structural reasons (mainly being in a small market and not placing that many into Chicago) for having lower numbers doesn't mean it's any more comforting or "impressive," at least in my opinion.

I love Wash U, but don't think this is at all an area of strength for them.

But WUSTL is the best brah.

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby DoveBodyWash » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:24 pm

Tremendous wrote:
Not sure I really understand this logic. Even though BC's placement has fallen significantly from a few years ago, especially in biglaw, it has always been better than Wash U's. A quick look at LST bears this out - 68% long term legal jobs vs. 57.7%.

Just because Wash U has some structural reasons (mainly being in a small market and not placing that many into Chicago) for having lower numbers doesn't mean it's any more comforting or "impressive," at least in my opinion.

I love Wash U, but don't think this is at all an area of strength for them.


I think I should have clarified. I never really meant to say that WUSTL's placement is necessarily better than BC's. Objectively speaking both schools have less-than-satisfactory placement. You could say the same for almost every school. I mean c'mon, Penn's at #1 for NLJ placement at a little over 50%. It's only impressive because it's compared to other schools, but a 50% chance at a SHOT of paying the debt you incurred is a pretty poor deal.

My point was that even though BC's placement is better on paper, there are many cases where schollies and lower COL could make WUSTL a better deal. If Boston experienced some mini-recession of its own, BC would be completely screwed whereas WUSTL, even with lower overall placement, could hypothetically weather the tosses and turns that occur in any one individual city. Why pay so much more for a 10% better chance at employment? You're basically paying more to put all your eggs in one, albeit slightly bigger, basket. The cost is completely disproportionate to the reward.

Edit: There's a chance I'm , as the TLS hivemind would say, "desperately trying to justify my own bad decisions", since I've basically withdrawn from all of my other options minus NU and Emory :D.

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JadeWest
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby JadeWest » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:40 pm

FTFY

cusenation wrote:Edit: There's a chance I'm , as the TLS hivemind would say, "desperately trying to justify my own bad decisions", since I've basically withdrawn from all of my other options minus NU and Emory :D. There's a chance that I'm actually Assistant Dean Clifford

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Unoriginalist
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby Unoriginalist » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:44 pm

Good points all around. With many statistics, especially in the Midwest, I feel it's hard to grasp how much is inability to get a high level job vs. self-selection. But I do find WashU's federal clerkship placement a bit disproportionately low compared to its relatively high rankings in legal reputation. I can't help but wonder why that is?
JadeWest wrote:FTFY

cusenation wrote:Edit: There's a chance I'm , as the TLS hivemind would say, "desperately trying to justify my own bad decisions", since I've basically withdrawn from all of my other options minus NU and Emory :D. There's a chance that I'm actually Assistant Dean Clifford


Lolz

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andy261
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby andy261 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:44 pm

JadeWest wrote:FTFY

cusenation wrote:Edit: There's a chance I'm , as the TLS hivemind would say, "desperately trying to justify my own bad decisions", since I've basically withdrawn from all of my other options minus NU and Emory :D. There's a chance that I'm actually Assistant Dean Clifford

+1 :lol:

Big Dog
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby Big Dog » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:46 pm

Why pay so much more for a 10% better chance at employment?


Not-so-small nit, but it's more than a 60% "better chance of employment". (A ten point increase is a huge % when one is talking such low numbers.)

WashU = 13.33%
BC = 21.75%

The math: (21.75/13.33-1) = 63%

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby DoveBodyWash » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:50 pm

Big Dog wrote:
Why pay so much more for a 10% better chance at employment?


Not-so-small nit, but it's more than a 60% "better chance of employment". (A ten point increase is a huge % when one is talking such low numbers.)

WashU = 13.33%
BC = 21.75%

The math: (21.75/13.33-1) = 63%


My brain shuts down when I see math :shock: ...But yes it's not a negligible amount. But it'll ultimately depend on how much people think the improved chances are worth. Would it be great if I was one of the 20 extra ppl who got BigLaw at BC instead of WUSTL? (BC placed 62, WUSTL placed 42). Sure, but I'm not comfortable paying so much for that chance.

In the end, as always, it'll come down to people's preferences. Thankfully the new NLJ numbers should come out soon so we can all make some better informed decisions then.

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alwayssunnyinfl
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby alwayssunnyinfl » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:15 pm

If you're biglaw or bust, both are bad choices. HTH

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Xs20
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby Xs20 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:17 pm

alwayssunnyinfl wrote:If you're biglaw or bust, both are bad choices. HTH

I'm lovin' this

JesusChrist
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby JesusChrist » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:17 pm

When are the numbers due out? Next month?

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Unoriginalist
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Re: Eternal, Never Off the First Page, WUSTL is the Best Thread.

Postby Unoriginalist » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:24 pm

Xs20 wrote:
alwayssunnyinfl wrote:If you're biglaw or bust, both are bad choices. HTH

I'm lovin' this


This is awesome on at least 8 levels.




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