Top Law Schools

ssanonymous wrote:Lavitz, thanks for the information. I was always under the assumption that YLS reads apps as they come in and didn't have a "hold" pile like other law schools i.e. you either get accepted, rejected, or waitlisted as soon as your file is reviewed. That's why I'm surprised to hear that someone submitted in October and heard back in February. I do still think it's rare to hear back that late after submitting, but it does make the admissions cycle less predictable.

The Admissions Committee does read the apps as they come in, but if you're not an auto-admit or auto-reject then yes, your app is sent off for faculty review, which basically is the hold. And yes, some of them do take their sweet time, as evidenced here:

Our admissions process takes longer than most schools, because we involve our entire faculty in the admissions process. I've described the admissions process here. As anyone who's been to law school can attest, it's hard enough to get a professor to turn in grades, let alone a stack of 50 admissions files. Multiply that by 60 and you have my reasons for wanting to fling myself out a window from about December through April. Seriously, though, while our process is time-consuming, it does ensure that every application is read very thoroughly, regardless of grades and LSAT scores, by up to 6 readers (which includes me and in tough cases, my entire admissions staff). So we don't make any decision lightly.

As a result of our process, your chances of admission are the same regardless of when you apply. Many applicants will hear within a couple of months of applying, but applicants who go through the full round of faculty review, as well as applicants who apply later in the season, may not hear until late March or early April, when most of our final decisions are made.

So that's basically why you shouldn't assume waitlist or reject if you don't hear in December.

That sums it up.

Lavitz wrote:

ssanonymous wrote:Lavitz, thanks for the information. I was always under the assumption that YLS reads apps as they come in and didn't have a "hold" pile like other law schools i.e. you either get accepted, rejected, or waitlisted as soon as your file is reviewed. That's why I'm surprised to hear that someone submitted in October and heard back in February. I do still think it's rare to hear back that late after submitting, but it does make the admissions cycle less predictable.

The Admissions Committee does read the apps as they come in, but if you're not an auto-admit or auto-reject then yes, your app is sent off for faculty review, which basically is the hold. And yes, some of them do take their sweet time, as evidenced here:

Our admissions process takes longer than most schools, because we involve our entire faculty in the admissions process. I've described the admissions process here. As anyone who's been to law school can attest, it's hard enough to get a professor to turn in grades, let alone a stack of 50 admissions files. Multiply that by 60 and you have my reasons for wanting to fling myself out a window from about December through April. Seriously, though, while our process is time-consuming, it does ensure that every application is read very thoroughly, regardless of grades and LSAT scores, by up to 6 readers (which includes me and in tough cases, my entire admissions staff). So we don't make any decision lightly.

As a result of our process, your chances of admission are the same regardless of when you apply. Many applicants will hear within a couple of months of applying, but applicants who go through the full round of faculty review, as well as applicants who apply later in the season, may not hear until late March or early April, when most of our final decisions are made.

So that's basically why you shouldn't assume waitlist or reject if you don't hear in December.

Definitely clears things up. Thank you!

Lavitz wrote: The Admissions Committee does read the apps as they come in, but if you're not an auto-admit or auto-reject then yes, your app is sent off for faculty review, which basically is the hold.

Because Yale seems a lot less numbers-based than some other schools (and when I say that, I really mean to say that great numbers don't seem to be enough), what kind of things do you think make someone an auto-admit?

elterrible78 wrote:

Lavitz wrote: The Admissions Committee does read the apps as they come in, but if you're not an auto-admit or auto-reject then yes, your app is sent off for faculty review, which basically is the hold.

Because Yale seems a lot less numbers-based than some other schools (and when I say that, I really mean to say that great numbers don't seem to be enough), what kind of things do you think make someone an auto-admit?

This. Yale is just unpredictable.

ssanonymous wrote:Definitely clears things up. Thank you!

You're welcome

elterrible78 wrote:Because Yale seems a lot less numbers-based than some other schools (and when I say that, I really mean to say that great numbers don't seem to be enough), what kind of things do you think make someone an auto-admit?

The kind of softs that you, elterrible, already have

But seriously, it's whatever Asha decides. This is all I could find on the matter:

There are roughly 50-80 applicants each year who are "presumptive admits" and who bypass the three reader process. Instead, they are reviewed by myself and a a faculty member who serves as the Chair of the Admissions Committee. These are students who are truly outstanding in every way, not just scores -- again, we are trying to fill the class with interesting and well-rounded students, not just students who can take tests well! It's hard to articulate what places a student into the presumptive admit category, so I'll just borrow Justice Potter Stewart's view: I know it when I see it.

I also attempted to look up backgrounds on some of the previous cycle's auto-admits (yes, including you, ElstonGunn ) but nothing really stands out. Some have ivy undergrads, some have non-prestigious undergrads; some are K-JD, some are non-traditional, some have advanced degrees; some have an average resume, some have strong work or PI experience; some have academic awards with publications, some have academic awards but no publications; some have 180s, some have 174s; some have 4.0s, some have 3.8s.

And no Nobel Prize winners, although I doubt they'd be on LSN or TLS anyway.

From Asha's blog:
There is no correlation between when you are admitted and whether you were a presumptive admit or read by faculty (I really don't see why this would make any difference once you are admitted, but anyway). Both I and the members of the faculty are reading files from early fall into April. So, it's entirely possible for an application to make it through a round of three faculty readers by December, just as it is possible for me to admit someone directly in the spring (it would be kind of odd, wouldn't it, if a must-have applicant applied on February 15 and I had no choice but to send the person to the faculty gamble?). In fact, I believe two years ago the very very very last file I read was a presumptive admit. Again: your chances of admission remain the same regardless of when you apply.


Edit: just to be 100% clear, I added the bold to the key phrases - would not want to be accused of misquoting Asha!

lurker99 wrote:From Asha's blog:
There is no correlation between when you are admitted and whether you were a presumptive admit or read by faculty (I really don't see why this would make any difference once you are admitted, but anyway). Both I and the members of the faculty are reading files from early fall into April. So, it's entirely possible for an application to make it through a round of three faculty readers by December, just as it is possible for me to admit someone directly in the spring (it would be kind of odd, wouldn't it, if a must-have applicant applied on February 15 and I had no choice but to send the person to the faculty gamble?). In fact, I believe two years ago the very very very last file I read was a presumptive admit. Again: your chances of admission remain the same regardless of when you apply.

Thank you for coming out of lurking to clear up that part up about whether someone can get through faculty review by December. I'm embarrassed to admit I'd never seen that blog entry before. So it would appear that we actually have no way of being sure whether someone was an auto-admit or not, even if they were admitted in December.

Although the original point about not worrying if you aren't included in the first group of admits still stands since you could just be stuck with the slower faculty members.

Edit: Found the blog post that quote is from. It has some other interesting info and is probably worth checking out: http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... wered.aspx

Can confirm, by the way, that there were roughly 25 people in the Facebook group in December.

Elston Gunn wrote:Can confirm, by the way, that there were roughly 25 people in the Facebook group in December.

Thanks, Elston.

Looks like I was wrong about all of you definitely being presumptive admits, but at least my random 25 number turned out to be a decent estimate of something.

... someone from Yale Law School just friended me on facebook. I know realistically they found me through TLS, but I'm still going to believe it's a sign that's I've been accepted

In any case, not going to accept, because I don't know them.......

*by from Yale Law School I mean they're in a group picture of people standing in front of a sign saying YLS and they have this picture about Yale with a comment like "good times"

lurker99,

alright, I KNEW I was getting my info from somewhere. Thanks for finding the exact quote! Asha's blog is beyond helpful.

I still think it's rare for an applicant who submitted on Jan 1st to get accepted before someone from, say, Nov 1st unless the Nov 1st applicant ended up in an incredibly slow faculty review. I know if I don't hear back by the end of January, I'll just assumed that I've been rejected (which is likely).

LSATSCORES2012 wrote:... someone from Yale Law School just friended me on facebook. I know realistically they found me through TLS, but I'm still going to believe it's a sign that's I've been accepted

In any case, not going to accept, because I don't know them.......

*by from Yale Law School I mean they're in a group picture of people standing in front of a sign saying YLS and they have this picture about Yale with a comment like "good times"

Lol that is weird!

Just got the complete email! The waiting begins for real!

Glad to read about the admit process, I plan on taking the Dec. LSAT test....My Advisor went to YLS and he told me it is a total Crap shoot....anyway...who they select no real rhime or reason in most cases. He never found out what got him in? His numbers were not great but good.....he figured he would end up going to Texas, northwestern or Georgetown....thnsk

Thanks Lavitz for all the helpful information!

I just submitted after writing that dreaded 250 essay... which was actually kind of fun. Anyway, good luck to you all

Also got my application complete email. Some peace of mind would be a really fantastic Christmas gift, Dean Asha! (Acceptance would obviously be a better present than a coal-in-my-stocking rejection letter, but any word would be nice).

Got the Yale viewbook thing in the mail. Lol @ Yale having to convince anyone of anything, but I will be saving it and my printed out rejection email for my life archives.

zidane13 wrote:Got the Yale viewbook thing in the mail. Lol @ Yale having to convince anyone of anything, but I will be saving it and my printed out rejection email for my life archives.

Awesome! Although I'd be sad if I got that because I'd just think, "why are you teasing me?"

count me in HAIL MARY

count me in too YOLO

Do you think calls will come out later than the last couple of years because they started accepting applications later?

I really need to get my shit together and submit this bad boy

bernaldiaz wrote:I really need to get my shit together and submit this bad boy

Same

Ahh yes, never again will we be able to procrastinate as we can now. Enjoy the freedom.

sinfiery wrote:

bernaldiaz wrote:I really need to get my shit together and submit this bad boy

Same

Ahh yes, never again will we be able to procrastinate as we can now. Enjoy the freedom.

If you don't love your app yet, take your time. Your chances aren't better if you apply earlier rather than later with YLS. The only difference is that you'll hear back sooner in the cycle. Good luck!

Maybe this isn't the best place for this comment, but as it's particularly important for those of us top-tier hopefuls, I thought it was worth presenting.

I found this: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/ReaganRepub22

The profile is obvious piffle. Nobody turns down half the school's in the T14 for some fourth-tier school, and nobody (I hope) gets into Yale with such a callous disregard for basic grammar. While this one is obvious, though, how reliable can we expect other LSN profiles to be? And how much should we rely on that data for schools like Yale when the representative sample sizes are small?