Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

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megagnarley
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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby megagnarley » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:02 pm

BigZuck wrote:
megagnarley wrote:Interesting. A lot of anti-Mich sentiment raining down here.

ASW was great for me but I can see how Mich would be polarizing to some. At the end of the day, whatever. Everyone I spoke to loved it and I guess those who didn't went elsewhere. No wrong or right here.

Those sneezing at the idea of self-selection are just willfully dismissing data though. The PI and Gov contingent is much larger at Mich than a school like Duke. Period. And while the impact on emplyment can't be measure precisely, to say it has no impact when it account for 9% more of the class is just silly.

Fully agree it is more of a peer with N/D/C than VP though.

The other point that always seems to get overlooked is the LRAP. Mich smokes the lower t14's with it's LRAP program and it's not even close. To me this is a non-negligible factor.

For full disclosure, I'm honestly 50/50 between Duke and Mich at this point, but I just don't think Duke is that far ahead of Mich as people make it out to be on TLS.


If M is clearly lower than V how is it not clearly lower than D? Virginia and Duke place very similarly, the only big difference I can see is PI. But if all of UVAs school employment gets grouped as PI then how do we know students actually want those jobs and aren't just taking them because they struck out everywhere else and UVA is the only entity actually giving them a chance to be a lawyer?

Until "self selection" can be quantified and we can move beyond the anecdotes I'm going to have to rely on concrete data like big law and clerkship placement and percentage of people reporting salary. And when looking at those things, to me Michigan is clearly below every other T14 save Georgetown. No doubt it's a really good school. But it's just not as good as those others and it seems to be slipping. And in saying all that all I'm really getting at is that to me, it's not worth paying more to attend than D, N, or C. For them to think that they are on another tier above those schools (the vaunted MVP) and worth paying more to attend- that's just plain silly.


I put UVA above Duke because of the gov numbers as well, which you did not address. Their Gov contingent alone is bigger than Duke's PI + Gov contingent combined (9% vs. 8%). Given such huge Gov and PI contingents (whether or not the PI is desirable) the fact that they place so well in Biglaw + Clerkships is really impressive. Duke, on the other hand, has tiny Gov and PI placement which reflects the fact that it excels in the business realm but has a more biglaw minded student body.

In sum: Duke is more representative of self-selecting into biglaw.

That being said, Duke is a great school and I may well end up there. I just don't follow the logic of Mich being that much worse.

And no one has even attempted to refute the huge disparity in LRAP, because it in indisputable.

tl;dr - Mich is a good school. Other schools are good schools.
Last edited by megagnarley on Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

04102014
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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby 04102014 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:02 pm

I agree BigZuck, but I also don't think that's what the majority of people who defend Michigan (including me) do. And I don't think you do it when you disagree. I just think James Dean is kind of an asshole.

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby megagnarley » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:03 pm

ohpobrecito wrote:I agree BigZuck, but I also don't think that's what the majority of people who defend Michigan (including me) do. And I don't think you do it when you disagree. I just think James Dean is kind of an asshole.


I like Mich.

But I also like James Dean.

:shock:

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby 04102014 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:04 pm

megagnarley wrote:
ohpobrecito wrote:I agree BigZuck, but I also don't think that's what the majority of people who defend Michigan (including me) do. And I don't think you do it when you disagree. I just think James Dean is kind of an asshole.


I like Mich.

But I also like James Dean.

:shock:


Haha. I like James Dean when he's not arguing with people around TLS. Which is rare.

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megagnarley
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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby megagnarley » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:05 pm

BigZuck wrote:
ohpobrecito wrote:
megagnarley wrote:Interesting. A lot of anti-Mich sentiment raining down here.

ASW was great for me but I can see how Mich would be polarizing to some. At the end of the day, whatever. Everyone I spoke to loved it and I guess those who didn't went elsewhere. No wrong or right here.

Those sneezing at the idea of self-selection are just willfully dismissing data though. The PI and Gov contingent is much larger at Mich than a school like Duke. Period. And while the impact on emplyment can't be measured precisely, to say it has no impact when it accounts for 9% more of the class is just silly.

Fully agree it is more of a peer with N/D/C than VP though.

The other point that always seems to get overlooked is the LRAP. Mich smokes the lower t14's with it's LRAP program and it's not even close. To me this is a non-negligible factor.

For full disclosure, I'm honestly 50/50 between Duke and Mich at this point, but I just don't think Duke is that far ahead of Mich as people make it out to be on TLS.


The anti-Michigan stuff in this thread is nothing compared to elsewhere around TLS. I completely agree that if someone doesn't think Michigan is for them, that's cool. My problem is when people make the same arguments over and over again about why Michigan is in decline, and then when you question it, they get pissed off and call you a troll. I've never insulted another school or said that Michigan is "better" (a meaningless term anyway) than anywhere else (I did say that I personally would choose it over UVA, but I also said they were peers), and I don't understand why people care as much as they do when others won't join in on the anti-Michigan TLS echo chamber game.


It's not trolling when what people are saying has substance and is well-reasoned. It is trolling when it's just baseless white-knighting or criticizing.


I would agree with this. It certainly has substance in regards to data.

The only issue is, like we discussed in our other exchange, a lot of the data outside of of biglaw+clerkships is slippery to handle so people on TLS just pretend it doesn't exist, which is silly.

Edit: why can't I spell?

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby BigZuck » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:26 pm

megagnarley wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
megagnarley wrote:Interesting. A lot of anti-Mich sentiment raining down here.

ASW was great for me but I can see how Mich would be polarizing to some. At the end of the day, whatever. Everyone I spoke to loved it and I guess those who didn't went elsewhere. No wrong or right here.

Those sneezing at the idea of self-selection are just willfully dismissing data though. The PI and Gov contingent is much larger at Mich than a school like Duke. Period. And while the impact on emplyment can't be measure precisely, to say it has no impact when it account for 9% more of the class is just silly.

Fully agree it is more of a peer with N/D/C than VP though.

The other point that always seems to get overlooked is the LRAP. Mich smokes the lower t14's with it's LRAP program and it's not even close. To me this is a non-negligible factor.

For full disclosure, I'm honestly 50/50 between Duke and Mich at this point, but I just don't think Duke is that far ahead of Mich as people make it out to be on TLS.


If M is clearly lower than V how is it not clearly lower than D? Virginia and Duke place very similarly, the only big difference I can see is PI. But if all of UVAs school employment gets grouped as PI then how do we know students actually want those jobs and aren't just taking them because they struck out everywhere else and UVA is the only entity actually giving them a chance to be a lawyer?

Until "self selection" can be quantified and we can move beyond the anecdotes I'm going to have to rely on concrete data like big law and clerkship placement and percentage of people reporting salary. And when looking at those things, to me Michigan is clearly below every other T14 save Georgetown. No doubt it's a really good school. But it's just not as good as those others and it seems to be slipping. And in saying all that all I'm really getting at is that to me, it's not worth paying more to attend than D, N, or C. For them to think that they are on another tier above those schools (the vaunted MVP) and worth paying more to attend- that's just plain silly.


I put UVA above Duke because of the gov numbers as well, which you did not address. Their Gov contingent alone is bigger than Duke's PI + Gov contingent combined (9% vs. 8%). Given such huge Gov and PI contingents (whether or not the PI is desirable) the fact that they place so well in Biglaw + Clerkships is really impressive. Duke, on the other hand, has tiny Gov and PI placement which reflects the fact that it excels in the business realm but has a more biglaw minded student body.

In sum: Duke is more representative of self-selecting into biglaw.

That being said, Duke is a great school and I may well end up there. I just don't follow the logic of Mich being that much worse.

And no one has even attempted to refute the huge disparity in LRAP, because it in indisputable.

tl;dr - Mich is a good school. Other schools are good schools.


You're definitely right about the Gov percentage. But again without knowing much of anything about UVAs school sponsored stuff it's hard to figure out what is what over there.

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby TorturedApplicant » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:40 pm

WL. F.

I win the wait list championship: UVA, Penn, Georgetown, USC, Michigan, Northwestern (held).

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby oaken » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:43 pm

visited the NU ASW and the Mich ASW (among others). i eventually deposited at NU after being sold on better employment statistics, but now i'm having second thoughts. NU students go on and on about how they're in the middle of a major legal market and michigan is at a "huge disadvantage" or has a "major problem" with not being in one but i'm not so sure so the self-selection is as neglible as TLS says it is.

i know i've not really said anything novel here but i'm wondering if depositing at NU immediately after the ASW was a mistake, especially since i feel like i'm one of "those people" who would fit in at michigan (even more so than NU)

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby guinness1547 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:46 pm

oaken wrote:visited the NU ASW and the Mich ASW (among others). i eventually deposited at NU after being sold on better employment statistics, but now i'm having second thoughts. NU students go on and on about how they're in the middle of a major legal market and michigan is at a "huge disadvantage" or has a "major problem" with not being in one but i'm not so sure so the self-selection is as neglible as TLS says it is.

i know i've not really said anything novel here but i'm wondering if depositing at NU immediately after the ASW was a mistake, especially since i feel like i'm one of "those people" who would fit in at michigan (even more so than NU)


I completely understand.

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby jackbauer10 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:52 pm

oaken wrote:visited the NU ASW and the Mich ASW (among others). i eventually deposited at NU after being sold on better employment statistics, but now i'm having second thoughts. NU students go on and on about how they're in the middle of a major legal market and michigan is at a "huge disadvantage" or has a "major problem" with not being in one but i'm not so sure so the self-selection is as neglible as TLS says it is.

i know i've not really said anything novel here but i'm wondering if depositing at NU immediately after the ASW was a mistake, especially since i feel like i'm one of "those people" who would fit in at michigan (even more so than NU)


There's been a lot of back and forth in this thread and lots of valid points, but I'd like to chime in and say something that totally stuck with me: Basically I was told to figure out whatever the most important thing is to me and go to the school that fits that. Doesn't matter if it's quality of faculty, weather, the city, the people, whatever. It doesn't even matter if it's what the school looks like. For me, it was the vibe and feeling like I'd be happy living somewhere for 3 years. If you're stuck between NU and Mich (both awesome options), what's your gut telling you?

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby MacB » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:00 pm

oaken wrote:visited the NU ASW and the Mich ASW (among others). i eventually deposited at NU after being sold on better employment statistics, but now i'm having second thoughts. NU students go on and on about how they're in the middle of a major legal market and michigan is at a "huge disadvantage" or has a "major problem" with not being in one but i'm not so sure so the self-selection is as neglible as TLS says it is.

i know i've not really said anything novel here but i'm wondering if depositing at NU immediately after the ASW was a mistake, especially since i feel like i'm one of "those people" who would fit in at michigan (even more so than NU)


Did you withdraw from Michigan, or is it still in play? I won't offer any advice, only recommend that you not make a decision about the next 40 years of your professional life based on this year's employment numbers alone (as some people seem perfectly comfortable doing).

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby jackbauer10 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:03 pm

MacB wrote:Did you withdraw from Michigan, or is it still in play? I won't offer any advice, only recommend that you not make a decision about the next 40 years of your professional life based on this year's employment numbers alone (as some people seem perfectly comfortable doing).



^ And to add to that, I'd say no matter where you end up, eating a $300 or $400 deposit is a drop in the bucket, so don't let it be a deterrent to changing your mind if you think you'd be happier somewhere else.
Last edited by jackbauer10 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby oaken » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:10 pm

yeah I think my gut is definitely michigan, I just need to convince myself that mich isn't "on the decline", that it's essentially comparable to NU for firm jobs, and thus that it's a sound decision both personally and practically. Thanks for the responses guys

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby MacB » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:15 pm

oaken wrote:yeah I think my gut is definitely michigan, I just need to convince myself that mich isn't "on the decline", that it's essentially comparable to NU for firm jobs, and thus that it's a sound decision both personally and practically. Thanks for the responses guys


Every school experiences fluctuations over time in employment numbers, ranking, reputation, etc. Michigan hasn't been ranked outside of the top ten since USNWR unfortunately began ranking law schools in 1987. If I were you, I would take what strangers say on the internet w/ a grain of salt.

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby megagnarley » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:17 pm

jackbauer10 wrote:Did you withdraw from Michigan, or is it still in play? I won't offer any advice, only recommend that you not make a decision about the next 40 years of your professional life based on this year's employment numbers alone (as some people seem perfectly comfortable doing).


^ And to add to that, I'd say no matter where you end up, eating a $300 or $400 deposit is a drop in the bucket, so don't let it be a deterrent to changing your mind if you think you'd be happier somewhere else.[/quote]

+1 to all of this.

And at the end of the day, while we scalpel numbers and squeeze every bit of reasoning out of every single employment metric, the debate about placement between schools like Mich/NU only really matters that much for the fringe 10 percent hanging just below median, a number that is squeezed even tighter when you figure self-selection and other interview/WE factors will have something to do with it.

I'm not saying to choose Mich or NU over Stanford because you like the architecture, but at the end of the day the percentage differences in employment amongst peer schools is likely going to matter less than your overall experience there.

Go where you feel best between the two.

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby 5buildingsin1 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:17 pm

Wl. Complete 1/3. Stats in profile...weird cycle for me...wl at Harvard, UVA, and UM. In at Stanford Chicago penn nyu...

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby TripTrip » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:20 pm

5buildingsin1 wrote:Wl. Complete 1/3. Stats in profile...weird cycle for me...wl at Harvard, UVA, and UM. In at Stanford Chicago penn nyu...

That's not weird. That's yield protection.

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smdpnp
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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby smdpnp » Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:57 pm

Nope.
Last edited by smdpnp on Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby nannygoatgruff » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:29 pm

ok here's my dilemma. Applied to UM early decision and immediately got accepted. I am thrilled and always wanted to go to Michigan Law. However, I withdrew from other schools so quickly (as is required) I got NO competing offers. My stats are in the lower 25% so I got no money from Michigan.

Is it crazy to go back and ask if there's any possibility of money?? Has anyone ever heard of this? Money is pretty tight for us, and I was so happy to get in, but now as money becomes a reality....
....thoughts?

thanks.

BigZuck
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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:34 pm

nannygoatgruff wrote:ok here's my dilemma. Applied to UM early decision and immediately got accepted. I am thrilled and always wanted to go to Michigan Law. However, I withdrew from other schools so quickly (as is required) I got NO competing offers. My stats are in the lower 25% so I got no money from Michigan.

Is it crazy to go back and ask if there's any possibility of money?? Has anyone ever heard of this? Money is pretty tight for us, and I was so happy to get in, but now as money becomes a reality....
....thoughts?

thanks.


Go ahead and ask but it more than likely won't happen. This is the problematic thing about EDing.

Probably your only leverage is to withdraw and sit out a cycle. Are you prepared to say that and actually follow through?

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TripTrip
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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby TripTrip » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:42 pm

nannygoatgruff wrote:However, I withdrew from other schools so quickly (as is required) I got NO competing offers.

That's not really relevant because you can't negotiate scholarships when you ED. You have no leverage.

I suppose you could play hardball and threaten to withdraw.

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby qwertyboard » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:05 am

nannygoatgruff wrote:ok here's my dilemma. Applied to UM early decision and immediately got accepted. I am thrilled and always wanted to go to Michigan Law. However, I withdrew from other schools so quickly (as is required) I got NO competing offers. My stats are in the lower 25% so I got no money from Michigan.

Is it crazy to go back and ask if there's any possibility of money?? Has anyone ever heard of this? Money is pretty tight for us, and I was so happy to get in, but now as money becomes a reality....
....thoughts?

thanks.


I wish you could do what I did. I went home, then I searched for the COA info, I made a spreadsheet of law school related expenses, and then I applied for Mom and Dad's scholarship. I got 160k interest free loans!

manti5
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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby manti5 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:57 am

WL on Friday. 176 / 3.64. Applied early Jan. Sent LOCI in mid March.

Not sure what happened here. Did late submission date make that large a difference?

BigZuck
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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby BigZuck » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:59 am

qwertyboard wrote:
nannygoatgruff wrote:ok here's my dilemma. Applied to UM early decision and immediately got accepted. I am thrilled and always wanted to go to Michigan Law. However, I withdrew from other schools so quickly (as is required) I got NO competing offers. My stats are in the lower 25% so I got no money from Michigan.

Is it crazy to go back and ask if there's any possibility of money?? Has anyone ever heard of this? Money is pretty tight for us, and I was so happy to get in, but now as money becomes a reality....
....thoughts?

thanks.


I wish you could do what I did. I went home, then I searched for the COA info, I made a spreadsheet of law school related expenses, and then I applied for Mom and Dad's scholarship. I got 160k interest free loans!


:D

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Re: Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013

Postby elterrible78 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:34 am

Just sent my withdrawal e-mail. It. Felt. Crappy.

Michigan seems like a fantastic place to spend a few years, so best of luck to all of you who eventually attend.




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