Michigan (AKA Hogwarts) c/o 2016 Applicants Thread 2012-2013 Forum

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

I realize this is going to get a lot of shit, but I think Michigan consciously doesn't raise scholarships to match lower-ranked schools because they don't want students who choose them simply because they are the highest bidder in their peer set or below. They place a lot of emphasis on taking students who actually want to be there, and I can say that, at least from my various law school visits, Michigan students fit a particular mold. Matching scholarships from higher-ranked schools makes sense if they're trying to get someone they like but who they know would otherwise never seriously consider them.

This has been my experience as well. Michigan matched (in effect) my Cornell offer and my numbers are just barely good enough to get in - similar numbers have been rejected.

When they say "they want to help you fund your education", they mean it

[Ramsey]

I realize this is going to get a lot of shit, but I think Michigan consciously doesn't raise scholarships to match lower-ranked schools because they don't want students who choose them simply because they are the highest bidder in their peer set or below. They place a lot of emphasis on taking students who actually want to be there, and I can say that, at least from my various law school visits, Michigan students fit a particular mold. Matching scholarships from higher-ranked schools makes sense if they're trying to get someone they like but who they know would otherwise never seriously consider them.

I agree with this.
My guess is that if you are asking U Mich to match offers from lower-ranked schools they won't do it unless 1) they really want you and/or 2) you really want U Mich and you've shown that. After all, it doesn't make sense for them to throw in money for someone who is not that inclined to attend U Mich...

[curious66]

I realize this is going to get a lot of shit, but I think Michigan consciously doesn't raise scholarships to match lower-ranked schools because they don't want students who choose them simply because they are the highest bidder in their peer set or below. They place a lot of emphasis on taking students who actually want to be there, and I can say that, at least from my various law school visits, Michigan students fit a particular mold. Matching scholarships from higher-ranked schools makes sense if they're trying to get someone they like but who they know would otherwise never seriously consider them.

Actually, I think your idea has alot of merit. But my original comment to BigZuck's still is pending discussion: if Michigan gave you $$, barring family issues, spouse jobs etc, why would someone pay sticker for Duke or Cornell or GULC? I see alot of trolling for Michigan on this site, and it doesn't seem warranted (especially if you are not paying sticker) -- from what I can tell on both the employment and clerkship numbers and from talking to 2L/3L's -- prospects have always been pretty great and are getting better. Someone want to offer thoughts?

[curious66]

Interesting and unfortunate I guess for the applicant. I had the reverse experience, no $ from Duke (still waiting to hear anything about aid from Cornell, so assume it is zero), but Michigan came through.

Just to clarify--Michigan gave you more aid than Duke/Cornell, and you didn't even have to negotiate, right?

Yes.. they gave me more $.

They place a lot of emphasis on taking students who actually want to be there, and I can say that, at least from my various law school visits, Michigan students fit a particular mold.

How would you describe the typical Mich Law student?

[BigZuck]

I realize this is going to get a lot of shit, but I think Michigan consciously doesn't raise scholarships to match lower-ranked schools because they don't want students who choose them simply because they are the highest bidder in their peer set or below. They place a lot of emphasis on taking students who actually want to be there, and I can say that, at least from my various law school visits, Michigan students fit a particular mold. Matching scholarships from higher-ranked schools makes sense if they're trying to get someone they like but who they know would otherwise never seriously consider them.

Actually, I think your idea has alot of merit. But my original comment to BigZuck's still is pending discussion: if Michigan gave you $$, barring family issues, spouse jobs etc, why would someone pay sticker for Duke or Cornell or GULC? I see alot of trolling for Michigan on this site, and it doesn't seem warranted (especially if you are not paying sticker) -- from what I can tell on both the employment and clerkship numbers and from talking to 2L/3L's -- prospects have always been pretty great and are getting better. Someone want to offer thoughts?

To me this would depend on cost (if by money you mean like 15K at Michigan and sticker at others that isn't neccessarily a huge reason) but if Michigan were significantly cheaper I would choose it over other lower T14s at sticker.

That being said for me Michigan is above GULC but below all other T14s (and Michigan is starting to close the gap between it and GULC. In a bad way). People will scream "self-selection" or "Michigan is different!" But if that's so then why doesn't Berkeley have similar employment outcomes?

[curious66]

I realize this is going to get a lot of shit, but I think Michigan consciously doesn't raise scholarships to match lower-ranked schools because they don't want students who choose them simply because they are the highest bidder in their peer set or below. They place a lot of emphasis on taking students who actually want to be there, and I can say that, at least from my various law school visits, Michigan students fit a particular mold. Matching scholarships from higher-ranked schools makes sense if they're trying to get someone they like but who they know would otherwise never seriously consider them.

Actually, I think your idea has alot of merit. But my original comment to BigZuck's still is pending discussion: if Michigan gave you $$, barring family issues, spouse jobs etc, why would someone pay sticker for Duke or Cornell or GULC? I see alot of trolling for Michigan on this site, and it doesn't seem warranted (especially if you are not paying sticker) -- from what I can tell on both the employment and clerkship numbers and from talking to 2L/3L's -- prospects have always been pretty great and are getting better. Someone want to offer thoughts?

To me this would depend on cost (if by money you mean like 15K at Michigan and sticker at others that isn't neccessarily a huge reason) but if Michigan were significantly cheaper I would choose it over other lower T14s at sticker.

That being said for me Michigan is above GULC but below all other T14s (and Michigan is starting to close the gap between it and GULC. In a bad way). People will scream "self-selection" or "Michigan is different!" But if that's so then why doesn't Berkeley have similar employment outcomes?

I take it you don't like Michigan.. . But at anyrate, good luck to you where ever you end up, you have some great choices.

[04102014]

Interesting and unfortunate I guess for the applicant. I had the reverse experience, no $ from Duke (still waiting to hear anything about aid from Cornell, so assume it is zero), but Michigan came through.

Just to clarify--Michigan gave you more aid than Duke/Cornell, and you didn't even have to negotiate, right?

Yes.. they gave me more $.

They place a lot of emphasis on taking students who actually want to be there, and I can say that, at least from my various law school visits, Michigan students fit a particular mold.

How would you describe the typical Mich Law student?

So Michigan said something at their ASW about how Michigan students take their work seriously but they don't take themselves too seriously, and I think there is a lot to this, although I wouldn't personally phrase it that way. I've been in touch with students before, during, and after ASW (some admissions initiated and others not), and all have been genuinely friendly, outgoing, and modest. Each person has been able to fully explain why they chose Michigan over other schools, and it never once had to do with rankings (not that many people would say if it did, but many of the students with whom I spoke indicated that they turned down higher-ranked schools). It's hard to pinpoint, but you can tell whether or not you'd like Michigan by visiting; it really is the type of place that you'll either love or really dislike. It was also telling that at ASW they directly said something to effect of "we're not going to make snide remarks about other schools... we want you to take this weekend and decide if Michigan is right for you, and it might not be."

At other schools, you very much get the "I'm going here because I didn't get into X" vibe. Students at Columbia in particular seemed very somber and generally unhappy with their classmates. I'd be interested to hear about the culture at UVA since I've never been.

[04102014]

I realize this is going to get a lot of shit, but I think Michigan consciously doesn't raise scholarships to match lower-ranked schools because they don't want students who choose them simply because they are the highest bidder in their peer set or below. They place a lot of emphasis on taking students who actually want to be there, and I can say that, at least from my various law school visits, Michigan students fit a particular mold. Matching scholarships from higher-ranked schools makes sense if they're trying to get someone they like but who they know would otherwise never seriously consider them.

Actually, I think your idea has alot of merit. But my original comment to BigZuck's still is pending discussion: if Michigan gave you $$, barring family issues, spouse jobs etc, why would someone pay sticker for Duke or Cornell or GULC? I see alot of trolling for Michigan on this site, and it doesn't seem warranted (especially if you are not paying sticker) -- from what I can tell on both the employment and clerkship numbers and from talking to 2L/3L's -- prospects have always been pretty great and are getting better. Someone want to offer thoughts?

To me this would depend on cost (if by money you mean like 15K at Michigan and sticker at others that isn't neccessarily a huge reason) but if Michigan were significantly cheaper I would choose it over other lower T14s at sticker.

That being said for me Michigan is above GULC but below all other T14s (and Michigan is starting to close the gap between it and GULC. In a bad way). People will scream "self-selection" or "Michigan is different!" But if that's so then why doesn't Berkeley have similar employment outcomes?

Actually, looking at the latest LST stats, Berkeley and Michigan have very similar employment outcomes.

[CaptainLeela]

Welcome to TLS

[04102014]

I went to March ASW, and I remember them making light-hearted joked about other regions of the country in a "Michigan isn't so bad" type of way (like comparing it to NYC and California, for example), but they never once mentioned another school, unless it was "Dean Caminker went to Yale Law School, but we won't hold it against him" type stuff, which was clearly tongue in cheek.

[zoidberg86]

So Michigan said something at their ASW about how Michigan students take their work seriously but they don't take themselves too seriously, and I think there is a lot to this, although I wouldn't personally phrase it that way. I've been in touch with students before, during, and after ASW (some admissions initiated and others not), and all have been genuinely friendly, outgoing, and modest. Each person has been able to fully explain why they chose Michigan over other schools, and it never once had to do with rankings (not that many people would say if it did, but many of the students with whom I spoke indicated that they turned down higher-ranked schools). It's hard to pinpoint, but you can tell whether or not you'd like Michigan by visiting; it really is the type of place that you'll either love or really dislike. It was also telling that at ASW they directly said something to effect of "we're not going to make snide remarks about other schools... we want you to take this weekend and decide if Michigan is right for you, and it might not be."

At other schools, you very much get the "I'm going here because I didn't get into X" vibe. Students at Columbia in particular seemed very somber and generally unhappy with their classmates. I'd be interested to hear about the culture at UVA since I've never been.

Gotta say, not sure what ASW you went to, but they did nothing but make snide remarks about other schools, cities, and in fact entire regions of the country! It was unbelievably off-putting

I was at the same one as ohpobrecito (March), and had the exact same take away as him. Did you go to the April one?

[CaptainLeela]

Welcome to TLS

[BigZuck]

I realize this is going to get a lot of shit, but I think Michigan consciously doesn't raise scholarships to match lower-ranked schools because they don't want students who choose them simply because they are the highest bidder in their peer set or below. They place a lot of emphasis on taking students who actually want to be there, and I can say that, at least from my various law school visits, Michigan students fit a particular mold. Matching scholarships from higher-ranked schools makes sense if they're trying to get someone they like but who they know would otherwise never seriously consider them.

Actually, I think your idea has alot of merit. But my original comment to BigZuck's still is pending discussion: if Michigan gave you $$, barring family issues, spouse jobs etc, why would someone pay sticker for Duke or Cornell or GULC? I see alot of trolling for Michigan on this site, and it doesn't seem warranted (especially if you are not paying sticker) -- from what I can tell on both the employment and clerkship numbers and from talking to 2L/3L's -- prospects have always been pretty great and are getting better. Someone want to offer thoughts?

To me this would depend on cost (if by money you mean like 15K at Michigan and sticker at others that isn't neccessarily a huge reason) but if Michigan were significantly cheaper I would choose it over other lower T14s at sticker.

That being said for me Michigan is above GULC but below all other T14s (and Michigan is starting to close the gap between it and GULC. In a bad way). People will scream "self-selection" or "Michigan is different!" But if that's so then why doesn't Berkeley have similar employment outcomes?

Actually, looking at the latest LST stats, Berkeley and Michigan have very similar employment outcomes.

How so? Berkeley's big law score is significantly higher.

People try and say that Michigan students self select out of big law (presumably because they are "different" and do gooders or whatever) and that's why their score is so much lower than their peers but if that's true then why is Berkeley's big law score so high?

I don't dislike Michigan. I just think it is what it is. And by that I mean on par with the rest of the lower T14 at best. There is no reason for them to think that people should be willing to pay more to attend there than Cornell, NU, and Duke, in my opinion.

[04102014]

I realize Berkeley has a reputation for doogoodery, but I think people underestimate how many Michigan students want to do PI and government work. It was heavily emphasized during ASW, and a surprisingly large number of students had no interest in biglaw by choice (or so they say). The TLS habit of equating biglaw placement with general employment opportunities has always struck me as silly, so I don't think 53% v. 43% says much of anything when their comparative numbers in general are so similar.

[JamesDean1955]

I agree with BigZuck about Michigan being above GULC but below the rest of the T14...when facing huge mountains of debt I could care less about the "somberness" of a school (what people seem to think of CLS), the only thing that matters to me is their employment abilities. It's 3 years of professional school...undergrad is over. Some people need a reality check.

With that said, I tried negotiating with Michigan using higher offers and got the "we do not compete but hope you'll still come" letter.

Will definitely be withdrawing soon, gave it a shot (went to the ASW and everything), and it's just not my cup of tea. Should hopefully free up significant scholly $$ for someone too.

[smdpnp]

Nope.

[zoidberg86]

I went to March ASW, and I remember them making light-hearted joked about other regions of the country in a "Michigan isn't so bad" type of way (like comparing it to NYC and California, for example), but they never once mentioned another school, unless it was "Dean Caminker went to Yale Law School, but we won't hold it against him" type stuff.

Maybe it was just April but really off putting comments were made specifically about Columbia and Yale (BY NAME) Penn & NYU (by implication), the east coast by region, and New York City. This was 2 faculty members, a student speaker, and an outside speaker (alum employer). My parents are New Yorkers, I was raised in DC, and to be honest by the end of it I was pretty much ready to make a dead sprint for the exit or give a piece of my mind about flyover states. I know I should probably deposit at Michigan and call it a day but I was frankly pretty offended by the performance and don't know if I want to spend 3 years of my life there.

Edit: I should add I've lived in the Midwest for almost 10 years, so that isn't an inherent issue at all.

Interesting that you had that takeaway, and a bit unsettling. However, as a fellow Futurama fan, I can tell you that I had the opposite experience. I had a few conversations with students about what schools I was considering and why they chose Michigan. It never really turned into a bashing of other schools or the East coast. Actually, in terms of DC and NYC, I heard a lot of positives about easily finding internships and job offers in those cities. Don't be too scared by that experience, I'm not sure if that's the norm.

[CaptainLeela]

Welcome to TLS

[04102014]

I agree with BigZuck about Michigan being above GULC but below the rest of the T14...when facing huge mountains of debt I could care less about the "somberness" of a school (what people seem to think of CLS), the only thing that matters to me is their employment abilities. It's 3 years of professional school...undergrad is over. Some people need a reality check.

With that said, I tried negotiating with Michigan using higher offers and got the "we do not compete but hope you'll still come" letter.

Will definitely be withdrawing soon, gave it a shot (went to the ASW and everything), and it's just not my cup of tea. Should hopefully free up significant scholly $$ for someone too.

I would say that this applies to you as well if you really believe that quality of life during law school doesn't matter.

[CaptainLeela]

Welcome to TLS

[JamesDean1955]

I realize Berkeley has a reputation for doogoodery, but I think people underestimate how many Michigan students want to do PI and government work. It was heavily emphasized during ASW, and a surprisingly large number of students had no interest in biglaw by choice (or so they say). The TLS habit of equating biglaw placement with general employment opportunities has always struck me as silly, so I don't think 53% v. 43% says much of anything when their comparative numbers in general are so similar.

Ok, if you want to assume the whole "Michigan PI self-selection thing", consider this:

Penn: 77.1% +5.2% = 82.3%
Michigan: 51.85 + 16% = 67.85%
UVA: 62.1% + 19.8% = 81.9%


The first percentage is the combined biglaw + fed clerkship numbers for c/o 2012. The second is the public interest numbers for c/o 2012.

Clearly, Michigan is no longer competing at the same overall level as UVA and Penn. I'm sorry if people don't want to hear this, but it's true, Michigan has gone downhill.

[JamesDean1955]

I agree with BigZuck about Michigan being above GULC but below the rest of the T14...when facing huge mountains of debt I could care less about the "somberness" of a school (what people seem to think of CLS), the only thing that matters to me is their employment abilities. It's 3 years of professional school...undergrad is over. Some people need a reality check.

With that said, I tried negotiating with Michigan using higher offers and got the "we do not compete but hope you'll still come" letter.

Will definitely be withdrawing soon, gave it a shot (went to the ASW and everything), and it's just not my cup of tea. Should hopefully free up significant scholly $$ for someone too.

I would say that this applies to you as well if you really believe that quality of life during law school doesn't matter.

Sigh. Really, your Michigan trolling is getting old.

[beepboopbeep]

I agree with BigZuck about Michigan being above GULC but below the rest of the T14...when facing huge mountains of debt I could care less about the "somberness" of a school (what people seem to think of CLS), the only thing that matters to me is their employment abilities. It's 3 years of professional school...undergrad is over. Some people need a reality check.

With that said, I tried negotiating with Michigan using higher offers and got the "we do not compete but hope you'll still come" letter.

Will definitely be withdrawing soon, gave it a shot (went to the ASW and everything), and it's just not my cup of tea. Should hopefully free up significant scholly $$ for someone too.

I would say that this applies to you as well if you really believe that quality of life during law school doesn't matter.

You can't be that cut-and-dry with it. For some people, QOL doesn't depend on the cheeriness of their classmates. I had the same impression of CLS, that the people were relatively dreary and depressing, but who cares? I'll be in NYC, and I have friends there. Who I'll probably see once or twice a week MAX, because I'll be studying all the time.

This is professional school, not lifestyle academy.

You could make the argument that Michigan appeals to the kind of people that recoil against the argument I'm making. I'd make the argument that they're silly people, but, eh. To each her own.

[04102014]

I realize Berkeley has a reputation for doogoodery, but I think people underestimate how many Michigan students want to do PI and government work. It was heavily emphasized during ASW, and a surprisingly large number of students had no interest in biglaw by choice (or so they say). The TLS habit of equating biglaw placement with general employment opportunities has always struck me as silly, so I don't think 53% v. 43% says much of anything when their comparative numbers in general are so similar.

Ok, if you want to assume the whole "Michigan PI self-selection thing", consider this:

Penn: 77.1% +5.2% = 82.3%
Michigan: 51.85 + 16% = 67.85%
UVA: 62.1% + 19.8% = 81.9%


The first percentage is the combined biglaw + fed clerkship numbers for c/o 2012. The second is the public interest numbers for c/o 2012.

Clearly, Michigan is no longer competing at the same overall level as UVA and Penn. I'm sorry if people don't want to hear this, but it's true, Michigan has gone downhill.

PI is not federal clerkships. So I don't know what you think you're proving, but you're not.

[04102014]

I agree with BigZuck about Michigan being above GULC but below the rest of the T14...when facing huge mountains of debt I could care less about the "somberness" of a school (what people seem to think of CLS), the only thing that matters to me is their employment abilities. It's 3 years of professional school...undergrad is over. Some people need a reality check.

With that said, I tried negotiating with Michigan using higher offers and got the "we do not compete but hope you'll still come" letter.

Will definitely be withdrawing soon, gave it a shot (went to the ASW and everything), and it's just not my cup of tea. Should hopefully free up significant scholly $$ for someone too.

I would say that this applies to you as well if you really believe that quality of life during law school doesn't matter.

Sigh. Really, your Michigan trolling is getting old.

Cool bro.