Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

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Dreas
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby Dreas » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:09 pm

Ruxin1 wrote:lulz.


Pointing out the obvious, good for you.

I have a feeling that you're going to be making it to high places in life.

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sunynp
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby sunynp » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:15 pm

Dreas wrote:
Ruxin1 wrote:lulz.


Pointing out the obvious, good for you.

I have a feeling that you're going to be making it to high places in life.

I admit that I was shocked that Pepperdine charges $250,000 for the class of 2015. That is hard to justify IMHO. I hope you make it work for you. At least you have WE and some small firm connections. I have heard the California market is brutal.

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romothesavior
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:28 pm

Oh dear... dreas is a 0L? I thought she was at least a graduate. Nothing better than a 0L lecturing actual law students and graduates about "bootstraps" and "hard work" and "networking." Like we don't already fucking know about these things.

lulz... get over yourself. The fact that you were a clerk or a paralegal at a small firm with a few TTT associates who were probably doing better than 99% of their peers doesn't make you an expert on outcomes for TTT graduates. Instead of focusing on this tiny sample size, go talk to the DROVES of unemployed recent grads who would lop off a testicle to get a 50k/year lawyer job.

Sounds like you are doing your best to talk yourself into thinking that going to a school with <50% full-time JD-employed is a good idea. But get outta here with your implying that all it takes is hard work and networking. I have enough friends at better schools than yours with good grades, good personalities, good networking skills, and no job, to find it a little offensive to make that argument.

Dreas
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby Dreas » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:40 pm

romothesavior wrote:Oh dear... dreas is a 0L? I thought she was at least a graduate. Nothing better than a 0L lecturing actual law students and graduates about "bootstraps" and "hard work" and "networking." Like we don't already fucking know about these things.

lulz... get over yourself. The fact that you were a clerk or a paralegal at a small firm with a few TTT associates who were probably doing better than 99% of their peers doesn't make you an expert on outcomes for TTT graduates. Instead of focusing on this tiny sample size, go talk to the DROVES of unemployed recent grads who would lop off a testicle to get a 50k/year lawyer job.

Sounds like you are doing your best to talk yourself into thinking that going to a school with <50% full-time JD-employed is a good idea. But get outta here with your implying that all it takes is hard work and networking. I have enough friends at better schools than yours with good grades, good personalities, good networking skills, and no job, to find it a little offensive to make that argument.


This post alone goes to show how much you've been paying attention to what I've been saying, and how much more you're huffing and puffing just for the sake of.

The real "lulz" in this thread is how the law students on here, for the most part, have resorted to attacking character more so than anything else.

And just for the record, no one has said anything about TTT's up until now, nor attacked or belittled unemployed grads - refer back to the first sentence of this post.

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romothesavior
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:51 pm

Trust me, I have read every one of your mangled, inane ramblings ITT. All you have offered to this thread have been unhelpful anecdotes and accusations of "arrogance" (because telling people to avoid six-figure investments for poor job prospects is "arrogant").

I think you've told us 50 times that we aren't "getting it." Maybe it is because you have yet to make a cognizable point?

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Elendil
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby Elendil » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:09 pm

So THIS is what happens when people stop obsessing about law school decisions... :lol:

rad lulz
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby rad lulz » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:25 pm

Dreas wrote:
sunynp wrote:I'm curious how you think this career works for most people. How much more do you think a person who is lucky enough to start out at 40 or 50k will earn over their career? My feeling is that it is very difficult to move up from the lower end of the bi-modal curve to the upper level. I'm sure there are anecdotes of people doing well, but what does a career look like for someone who struggles to even get a full-time pad JD and bar required job?


After being on this forum for well over a year and keeping pace day in and day out, it seems like to many a legal career is nothing more than a get rich quick scheme. I guess this reflects a lot on today's generation, expecting a lot without working hard.

To me, any professional career is a fundamental in establishing oneself in this country and opening opportunities for oneself and family. Sure, you can get stuck in a horrible position but that's partially a reflection on you as an individual and your motivation.

You're not entitled to what you haven't work toward.

No one said anything about getting rich. What people mean is that when average indebtedness is about $100k, with interest rapidly accruing, not counting UG debt, and if you miss biglawlz the likely salary is about $50k, the smartest move for most TT students is generally not to play the game. Especially at a school like Pepperdine.

Also like romo said, LOL @ you, as an 0L lecturing largely current students about how legal hiring works. I've seen smart, motivated people who did everything right, including "hustling," who get chewed up and spat out by the legal economy. You can't hustle your way into jobs that don't exist.

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2014
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby 2014 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:38 pm

This thread got fun quick

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sunynp
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby sunynp » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:44 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Dreas wrote:
sunynp wrote:I'm curious how you think this career works for most people. How much more do you think a person who is lucky enough to start out at 40 or 50k will earn over their career? My feeling is that it is very difficult to move up from the lower end of the bi-modal curve to the upper level. I'm sure there are anecdotes of people doing well, but what does a career look like for someone who struggles to even get a full-time pad JD and bar required job?


After being on this forum for well over a year and keeping pace day in and day out, it seems like to many a legal career is nothing more than a get rich quick scheme. I guess this reflects a lot on today's generation, expecting a lot without working hard.

To me, any professional career is a fundamental in establishing oneself in this country and opening opportunities for oneself and family. Sure, you can get stuck in a horrible position but that's partially a reflection on you as an individual and your motivation.

You're not entitled to what you haven't work toward.

No one said anything about getting rich. What people mean is that when average indebtedness is about $100k, with interest rapidly accruing, not counting UG debt, and if you miss biglawlz the likely salary is about $50k, the smartest move for most TT students is generally not to play the game. Especially at a school like Pepperdine.

Also like romo said, LOL @ you, as an 0L lecturing largely current students about how legal hiring works. I've seen smart, motivated people who did everything right, including "hustling," who get chewed up and spat out by the legal economy. You can't hustle your way into jobs that don't exist.


After being here for a while, I think that some people don't really understand how bad it is for legal hiring until reality confronts them at OCI. No matter how many numbers or facts you present, some people just won't believe the reality of the situation. They have to experience it. Maybe they won't ever realize it, and keep thinking that all they have to do is keep trying.

Don't get me wrong. I think many people are having their eyes opened in part by the efforts of LST. Still, I think some people are always going to believe that if they "hustle" - tell that to the guy who posted today who has gotten one interview and no offers after sending out 300 applicatiions - or one of the posters here who has been honest about the difficulty of his job search, that poster has tried every innovative way possible to hustle into a job after losing their first job due to the illness of the partner at a small family law firm- they will be fine. Conversely, they believe that those who don't succeed just aren't trying hard enough.

Sadly, people sometimes only believe reality when they experience it. As another poster put it, the difficulty in finding a job becomes clear when you realize you are one interview away from having ruined your life financially.

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romothesavior
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:56 pm

As usual, solid post sunyp. It really is something you have to experience, or have a close friend experience. I had my eyes open and knew coming into law school that things were bad, but I didn't really understand the magnitude until I got here. Like rad, I've seen some great people get dominated by the 2L job hunt despite good grades, good personalities, good pedigrees, etc.

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manofjustice
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby manofjustice » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:47 pm

Dreas wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:you make 90K?

You realize the only jobs that pay that well in law are virtually only available to T13 grads?


It's comments like this that caution me to take advice on here with a grain of salt.

I work at a firm in a major market where I know for a fact that the associates make well over 100k, and most of them are grads from a regional T2. One of the associates makes over 150k, I've seen the numbers.

This isn't even at a major firm, small actually, with about 10 or so attorneys total.

It comes down to the individual and the opportunities one pursues and takes full advantage of.


Agreed. The statement is unhelpful and off-base. Also, anti-Gtown trolling.

edit: reading the thread, I see that dreas may or may not have made some stupid comments regarding "hard work." But I stand by his opinion vis-a-vis the quoted comment.

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kerflux
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby kerflux » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:48 pm

I don't know how many times I've read posts like this, and there's always one person who thinks they're going to fucking enlighten people who has to go and say

WELLLLL I know this guy who went and networked his ass off from (insert lower tiered school) and he's doing quite well for himself

how many times does this argument really have to happen? and the fact that it has devolved into a discussion of how our generation feels entitled is seriously just ridiculous. Wouldn't you expect at least a chance at success if you spent ~19 years in school and racked up hundreds of thousands in debt to pursue a career in law? Is that entitlement?

EVERYONE understands that there are some successful t2,3,4 grads, but the advice here is that you should try to put yourself in the most advantageous position, aka attend the best and most cost-effective school that you're granted admission to. When you make it a point to tell people that lesser schools churn out successful lawyers, you're not doing anyone any favors, everyone knows that already. More likely than not whoever is seeking advice already has dozens of people irl telling them how their TT acceptance is as a good as gold and they're going to make bank once they graduate - TLS offers an invaluable stark and realistic counterpoint to this ignorant optimism.

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Wily
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby Wily » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:18 am

As a big JDUnderground poster myself, I would HIGHLY recommend anyone who is considering law school at a TT, T3, T4, to go there and spend an hour reading and posting. It's a mostly friendly crowd, mainly of real lawyers, and they have some very eye-opening stories about their struggles to find work and their takes on the current legal economy.

rad lulz
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:21 am

Wily wrote:As a big JDUnderground poster myself, I would HIGHLY recommend anyone who is considering law school at a TT, T3, T4, to go there and spend an hour reading and posting. It's a mostly friendly crowd, mainly of real lawyers, and they have some very eye-opening stories about their struggles to find work and their takes on the current legal economy.

I miss when JDU was an angry cynical place where dreams went to die.

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Wily
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby Wily » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:59 am

rad lulz wrote:
Wily wrote:As a big JDUnderground poster myself, I would HIGHLY recommend anyone who is considering law school at a TT, T3, T4, to go there and spend an hour reading and posting. It's a mostly friendly crowd, mainly of real lawyers, and they have some very eye-opening stories about their struggles to find work and their takes on the current legal economy.

I miss when JDU was an angry cynical place where dreams went to die.


Oh it still very, very much is. But after you get past the cynical veneer, it's a great source of insider advice, especially for people who will NOT be going to biglaw (i.e. 85% of law school students).

kenji
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby kenji » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:02 pm

No one in this thread can read. Dreas made such a basic point but of course TLS misses it completely.

This happens way too often. You all just have prepped responses to arguments and don't even bother to change them up to avoid looking stupid.

Good going :roll:

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Mr. Frodo
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby Mr. Frodo » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:12 pm

2014 wrote:This thread got fun quick


+7

JerichoJohnny
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby JerichoJohnny » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:13 pm

As an incoming 0L at a T2, regional program I have definitely been impacted by the attitude found here at TLS and other online resources for law students. Times are very tough. I have no dreams of Biglaw. I will consider myself lucky if I can find a job making 50K a year. I am taking a huge leap, and, yes, going into debt. I do intend to "hustle" like hell and get ahead in every way I can, but who doesn't? I have no illusions that I'm so gosh-darned special that I'm going to be the lucky fella who goes against the odds.

If I was 18 again, I don't think I would choose a path that would lead me to law. I don't know how anyone could recommend doing so unless Mommy or Daddy is doing the hiring when you get your JD. In my case I decided to pursue a useless liberal arts degree and found myself at a point where I just didn't see many options available to me. I've spent several years working a job that required only a high school diploma. I was making about $22,000 a year, and that's a generous estimate. MBA, Law, Accounting. Google them and you find doom and gloom about them all, and for good reason! What a terrible time to try to enter the legal market.

At one point I did consider starting over from scratch, trying to pursue something in the STEM fields. Besides not having a natural aptitude in those areas, the career prospects didn't look too good for most of the (specifically medical) fields I was interested in, unless, of course, I wanted to be an LPN supervising 50 senior citizens making $15 an hour. Lots of openings for those, but I basically make that now.

All I want from law school is to do well at my hometown's law school, and get a job that requires a JD and pays enough to cover my loan bills. Is that even possible in this market? Maybe not. I may very well be making an incredibly stupid decision borne of desperation and the economic malaise of our times. I wish I could be bright-eyed and bushy-tailed like many of my neophyte colleagues. My only hope is that my years of WE, my status as a hometown boy in a transient community, and my very low expectations will lead me to something between the hoped-for success and dreaded failure.

JerichoJohnny
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby JerichoJohnny » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:17 pm

I think it must have been those few years I've had between UG and now that really changed my attitude about law prospects. K-JD's must have no conception of how truly difficult things are in the job market and how it feels when you have to start paying those student loans back. Put it off sooner or later, but the real world will hit you like a ton of bricks.

I came up dirt poor and my folks filed bankruptcy every couple of years. I was first-generation already in UG, let alone law school. Worse case scenario I'm back where I started: bankrupt and poor. The most bankrupt and suicidal lawyer in the whole trailer park.

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sunynp
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby sunynp » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:20 pm

JerichoJohnny wrote:As an incoming 0L at a T2, regional program I have definitely been impacted by the attitude found here at TLS and other online resources for law students. Times are very tough. I have no dreams of Biglaw. I will consider myself lucky if I can find a job making 50K a year. I am taking a huge leap, and, yes, going into debt. I do intend to "hustle" like hell and get ahead in every way I can, but who doesn't? I have no illusions that I'm so gosh-darned special that I'm going to be the lucky fella who goes against the odds.

If I was 18 again, I don't think I would choose a path that would lead me to law. I don't know how anyone could recommend doing so unless Mommy or Daddy is doing the hiring when you get your JD. In my case I decided to pursue a useless liberal arts degree and found myself at a point where I just didn't see many options available to me. I've spent several years working a job that required only a high school diploma. I was making about $22,000 a year, and that's a generous estimate. MBA, Law, Accounting. Google them and you find doom and gloom about them all, and for good reason! What a terrible time to try to enter the legal market.

At one point I did consider starting over from scratch, trying to pursue something in the STEM fields. Besides not having a natural aptitude in those areas, the career prospects didn't look too good for most of the (specifically medical) fields I was interested in, unless, of course, I wanted to be an LPN supervising 50 senior citizens making $15 an hour. Lots of openings for those, but I basically make that now.

All I want from law school is to do well at my hometown's law school, and get a job that requires a JD and pays enough to cover my loan bills. Is that even possible in this market? Maybe not. I may very well be making an incredibly stupid decision borne of desperation and the economic malaise of our times. I wish I could be bright-eyed and bushy-tailed like many of my neophyte colleagues. My only hope is that my years of WE, my status as a hometown boy in a transient community, and my very low expectations will lead me to something between the hoped-for success and dreaded failure.


So what were your numbers and how much debt are we talking?
JerichoJohnny wrote:I think it must have been those few years I've had between UG and now that really changed my attitude about law prospects. K-JD's must have no conception of how truly difficult things are in the job market and how it feels when you have to start paying those student loans back. Put it off sooner or later, but the real world will hit you like a ton of bricks.

I came up dirt poor and my folks filed bankruptcy every couple of years. I was first-generation already in UG, let alone law school. Worse case scenario I'm back where I started: bankrupt and poor. The most bankrupt and suicidal lawyer in the whole trailer park.


Actually it will be worse with non-dischargeable debt. How much will you owe? Do you plan to drop out at some point if you don't get the grades you need?
Do you have any contacts/experience with local firms?

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h2oplyer7
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby h2oplyer7 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:35 pm

Well, I have come to the conclusion that there is no sense in even trying anymore. All of us should just kill ourselves. Even if you make it into Yale with a full scholly, and your parents your parents are filthy rich, and your dad is partner at a 250, soon the whole world will lose power, and all wealth will be destroyed. Those with gold will lose their money to those with guns, and they will be eaten by lions who escape from nearby zoos.

As for us going to non-T14s, only the strong who have skills with a crossbow will survive. Even then, most of us will be hunted down by roaming packs of labradors (the most prolific dog in the world) and licked to death.

Well, I'm gonna get back to the olympics and consider that Phelps has all that gold and will be returning to Baltimore when the games are over, God save him!

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h2oplyer7
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby h2oplyer7 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:38 pm

http://www.examiner.com/article/record- ... lose-power

Here is the proof! Even more proof is that NBC has been running previews of JJ Abrams new series about what I just talked about, and he is the smartest man on the planet.

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h2oplyer7
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby h2oplyer7 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:56 pm

--ImageRemoved--

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swampthang
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby swampthang » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Mr. Frodo wrote:
2014 wrote:This thread got fun quick


+7


I think the memes killed the fun. More specious generalizations from fantastical anecdotes, please?




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