Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

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h2oplyer7
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Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby h2oplyer7 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:19 pm

I came across an article this morning, though it came out a few weeks ago: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202560485444

It makes sense to me. One week ago, I was thrown a pile of money with no stipulations at the University of Maryland, which will pay entirely for the school with a bit left over. I was extremely excited about this. However, now I am wondering if this is a sign of desperation on the part of Maryland. I'm actually far below their GPA median.

I am starting to get really nervous that Maryland is NOT the place to be. It seems that everyone is jumping overboard with their plunging job numbers. According to LST, only 46% of Maryland grads found FT/LT work last year. This is horrible!!!

HellOnHeels
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby HellOnHeels » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:43 pm

h2oplyer7 wrote:I came across an article this morning, though it came out a few weeks ago: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202560485444

It makes sense to me. One week ago, I was thrown a pile of money with no stipulations at the University of Maryland, which will pay entirely for the school with a bit left over. I was extremely excited about this. However, now I am wondering if this is a sign of desperation on the part of Maryland. I'm actually far below their GPA median.

I am starting to get really nervous that Maryland is NOT the place to be. It seems that everyone is jumping overboard with their plunging job numbers. According to LST, only 46% of Maryland grads found FT/LT work last year. This is horrible!!!

You can always retake the LSAT, and reapply to schools with better job prospects.

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h2oplyer7
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby h2oplyer7 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:53 pm

Actually, I think that is what I am going to do. Damn, it sucks to sit out another year but this market is far too scary. To me, it seems like if you are not at a Top 25 School, you're gonna be hurting bad one way or another.

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2014
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby 2014 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:27 pm

There is nothing wrong with Maryland in and of itself, there is something wrong with going to Maryland hoping for Biglaw. The people who are screwed at schools like Maryland or worse are the ones who go in and take out a mountain of debt or who give up a great job in another industry and can't get it back after law school. If you just want to be a lawyer and are comfortable making 40-50k, Maryland for free + stipend is a perfectly fine option.

That being said, retaking is really always the right choice. Maryland will be there next year and you might be able to trade up to a better school with a full ride if you improve your LSAT which would give you a marginally higher BigLaw chance and the same backup option as Maryland's plan A.

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noleknight16
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby noleknight16 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:52 pm

UMD at a full ride isn't a bad idea though. Very low risk. If you think you can retake into the T-14 range go for it, but even schools in the 20's are feeling it.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby JamMasterJ » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:55 pm

what are your numbers? If you're "far below" their gpa median, I'm not sure that the schools where job prospects are far enough better to rationalize the additional debt are going to accept you.

ETA: I'm talking like, 2.6 gpa

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h2oplyer7
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby h2oplyer7 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:50 pm

Well, I am higher than 2.6. haha I am thinking of maybe attempting to transfer to George Washington next year. I only have a 162 LSAT though, so I assume I will need to retake.

Anyways, it does seem like it is not even worth going to a law school outside of the T20 right now. I make 90k a year right now, but I don't like my job. I think 40-50k a year, even without debt sounds horribly depressing.

It will be very interesting to see where law goes over the next six years. I feel like we are at the cusp of a revolution.

Maybe I can get a job as a Cooley law professor. ;)

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby JamMasterJ » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:48 pm

h2oplyer7 wrote:Well, I am higher than 2.6. haha I am thinking of maybe attempting to transfer to George Washington next year. I only have a 162 LSAT though, so I assume I will need to retake.

Anyways, it does seem like it is not even worth going to a law school outside of the T20 right now. I make 90k a year right now, but I don't like my job. I think 40-50k a year, even without debt sounds horribly depressing.

It will be very interesting to see where law goes over the next six years. I feel like we are at the cusp of a revolution.

Maybe I can get a job as a Cooley law professor. ;)

you make 90K?
You realize the only jobs that pay that well in law are virtually only available to T13 grads? Are there any lateral opportunities to something that pays similarly without making you go back to school in an incredibly risky field?

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h2oplyer7
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby h2oplyer7 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:55 pm

Well I work as a military intelligence analyst. I don't mind making less, but I think 50k sounds depressing. I'm already 32. Who knows, maybe I'll just stay what I'm doing. Haha

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taxnstuff
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby taxnstuff » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:03 pm

THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby Dreas » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:39 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:you make 90K?

You realize the only jobs that pay that well in law are virtually only available to T13 grads?


It's comments like this that caution me to take advice on here with a grain of salt.

I work at a firm in a major market where I know for a fact that the associates make well over 100k, and most of them are grads from a regional T2. One of the associates makes over 150k, I've seen the numbers.

This isn't even at a major firm, small actually, with about 10 or so attorneys total.

It comes down to the individual and the opportunities one pursues and takes full advantage of.

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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby rad lulz » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:44 pm

Dreas wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:you make 90K?

You realize the only jobs that pay that well in law are virtually only available to T13 grads?

Are there any lateral opportunities to something that pays similarly without making you go back to school in an incredibly risky field?


It's comments like this that caution me to take advice on here with a grain of salt.

I work at a firm in a major market where I know for a fact that the associates make well over 100k, and most of them are grads from a regional T2. One of the associates makes over 150k, I've seen the numbers.

This isn't even at a major firm, small actually, with about 10 or so attorneys total.

It comes down to the individual and the opportunities one takes full advantage of.

You assume that those TT people:

1) have opportunities typical of people of that TT, and that
2) present grads will generally have the same opportunities as these people who are not recent grads.

These assumptions, without more info, are unwarranted.

Dreas
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby Dreas » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:50 pm

rad lulz wrote:You assume that those TT people:

1) have opportunities typical of people of that TT, and that
2) present grads will generally have the same opportunities as these people who are not recent grads.

These assumptions, without more info, are unwarranted.


As are yours.

This specific associate has only been there a few years, and this is that persons only legal experience (this individual started as an intern here while in/prior to LS).

There's no reason that others from that T2 wouldn't have the same opportunity, it's just a matter of wanting it bad enough and hustling (as I am). In fact, the head partner is an alum of that T2 and seems to favor students from there (most the associates are grads from that T2).
Last edited by Dreas on Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

rad lulz
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby rad lulz » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:54 pm

Dreas wrote:As are yours.

This specific associate has only been there a few years, and this is that persons only legal experience (this individual started as an intern here while in/prior to LS).

There's no reason that others from that T2 wouldn't have the same opportunity, it's just a matter of wanting it bad enough and hustling (as I am). In fact, the head partner is an alum of that T2.

Do you not realize that people who graduated even in 2009 and 2010 had MARKEDLY different job prospects than those who graduated in 2011 and after?

Are the 50% or more of the people who graduate from your run-of-the-mill TT nowadays who DON'T get full time, bar passage required employment not hustling enough?

Shit go talk to people at typical TTs. Getting a job that pay like $90k+ would be an insanely good outcome. You can't "hustle" your way into jobs that aren't there. And with only about 58% of grads today getting legal jobs, they're largely not.

Cmon bro, think about this for like 2 seconds.
Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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h2oplyer7
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby h2oplyer7 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:55 pm

taxnstuff wrote:THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!


Are you still going to MD? How do you feel about the LST numbers?

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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby Dreas » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:03 pm

rad lulz wrote:Do you not realize that people who graduated even in 2009 and 2010 had MARKEDLY different job prospects than those who graduated in 2011 and after?

Are the 50% or more of the people who graduate from your run-of-the-mill TT nowadays who DON'T get full time, bar passage required employment not hustling enough?

Shit go talk to people at typical TTs. Getting a job that pay like $90k+ would be an insanely good outcome. You can't "hustle" your way into jobs that aren't there. And with only about 58% of grads today getting legal jobs, they're largely not.

Cmon bro, think about this for like 2 seconds.


Believe me, I am and I do understand what you're saying.

However, I'm also taking into account what I'm seeing in front of me.

I'd say it goes both ways.

We have an associate who JUST graduated and passed the bar - this person is now a hired attorney at the firm (this associate was hustling at this firm while attending that same T2). With that being said, we had a clerk who graduated a few years ago from the same T2 and who has passed the bar, who worked for us unpaid (for WE) and in the end didn't receive an offer.

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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby rad lulz » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:09 pm

Dreas wrote:With that being said, we had a clerk who graduated a few years ago from the same T2 and who had passed the bar a few years ago, who worked for us unpaid and in the end didn't receive an offer.

Huh your firm is flirting with the law surrounding the definition of "intern" as well I see.

Dreas
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby Dreas » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:12 pm

Agreed, and it is frustrating, but who isn't nowadays?

Education-bubble/market-saturation at its best, unfortunately.
Last edited by Dreas on Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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fatduck
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby fatduck » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:13 pm

Dreas wrote:We have an associate who JUST graduated and passed the bar - this person is now a hired attorney at the firm (this associate was hustling at this firm while attending that same T2). With that being said, we had a clerk who graduated a few years ago from the same T2 and who has passed the bar, who worked for us unpaid (for WE) and in the end didn't receive an offer.

well, since most TT law schools only graduate 1 or 2 people a year, i'd say you've got a pretty good handle on their job prospects.

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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby sunynp » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:17 pm

h2oplyer7 wrote:Well I work as a military intelligence analyst. I don't mind making less, but I think 50k sounds depressing. I'm already 32. Who knows, maybe I'll just stay what I'm doing. Haha


As an intelligence analyst, I'm sure you are reaching the correct conclusion. Don't give up a 90,000 job with probably good benefits to go to Maryland. Don't go even for free.

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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby Dreas » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:17 pm

fatduck wrote:
Dreas wrote:We have an associate who JUST graduated and passed the bar - this person is now a hired attorney at the firm (this associate was hustling at this firm while attending that same T2). With that being said, we had a clerk who graduated a few years ago from the same T2 and who has passed the bar, who worked for us unpaid (for WE) and in the end didn't receive an offer.

well, since most TT law schools only graduate 1 or 2 people a year, i'd say you've got a pretty good handle on their job prospects.


Relax and appreciate the fact that I'm giving you RL examples instead of spewing hearsay.
Last edited by Dreas on Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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fatduck
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby fatduck » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:20 pm

Dreas wrote:
fatduck wrote:
Dreas wrote:We have an associate who JUST graduated and passed the bar - this person is now a hired attorney at the firm (this associate was hustling at this firm while attending that same T2). With that being said, we had a clerk who graduated a few years ago from the same T2 and who has passed the bar, who worked for us unpaid (for WE) and in the end didn't receive an offer.

well, since most TT law schools only graduate 1 or 2 people a year, i'd say you've got a pretty good handle on their job prospects.

Relax and appreciate the fact that I'm giving you RL examples.

not sure why i should appreciate that. you sort of skipped the most important question: are the 50%+ grads of TTs who get NO full-time, bar passage required jobs, much less ones paying six figures, just not hustling enough?

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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby rad lulz » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:21 pm

Dreas wrote:
fatduck wrote:
Dreas wrote:We have an associate who JUST graduated and passed the bar - this person is now a hired attorney at the firm (this associate was hustling at this firm while attending that same T2). With that being said, we had a clerk who graduated a few years ago from the same T2 and who has passed the bar, who worked for us unpaid (for WE) and in the end didn't receive an offer.

well, since most TT law schools only graduate 1 or 2 people a year, i'd say you've got a pretty good handle on their job prospects.


Relax and appreciate the fact that I'm giving you RL examples.. instead of spewing hearsay.

And I know a guy who graduated from my T18 school who got an offer at Cravath. So what?

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sunynp
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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby sunynp » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:21 pm

Dreas wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Do you not realize that people who graduated even in 2009 and 2010 had MARKEDLY different job prospects than those who graduated in 2011 and after?

Are the 50% or more of the people who graduate from your run-of-the-mill TT nowadays who DON'T get full time, bar passage required employment not hustling enough?

Shit go talk to people at typical TTs. Getting a job that pay like $90k+ would be an insanely good outcome. You can't "hustle" your way into jobs that aren't there. And with only about 58% of grads today getting legal jobs, they're largely not.

Cmon bro, think about this for like 2 seconds.


Believe me, I am and I do understand what you're saying.

However, I'm also taking into account what I'm seeing in front of me.

I'd say it goes both ways.

We have an associate who JUST graduated and passed the bar - this person is now a hired attorney at the firm (this associate was hustling at this firm while attending that same T2). With that being said, we had a clerk who graduated a few years ago from the same T2 and who has passed the bar, who worked for us unpaid (for WE) and in the end didn't receive an offer.


Your own firm used unpaid lawyers and you are telling OP to go to law school? How can you do that in good conscience? It doesn't matter that you hired one or two people, look at all the people who are desperate enough to work for free in the hope of getting a job. And that is after 3 years of expensive school plus passing the bar.

You should be sure to include that story of your "unpaid bar qualified clerk" who didn't get hired in any post you make telling people they just need to hustle to get a job. You can't hustle more than working for free.

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Re: Law School Admissions 2012: LUCKY or CURSED

Postby Dreas » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:30 pm

If you guys were paying attention instead of prepping arrogant responses you would understand that I was merely questioning the thought that there are no 50k+ jobs/opportunities outside of the "T13." Please, show me where I said LS is "a good idea."

There's a reason why I posted those two different examples - I'm not trying to be bias.

In terms of the 50/50.. what's your point? The current situation is widespread, and a legal career is long term, not short term (if you can afford it). I'm sorry if you went to LS expecting a six figure job before graduating.

That clerk who wasn't offered a spot obviously wasn't hustling in LS if he had to do the unpaid (which he agreed to inexchange for WE at our firm) work AFTER grad, when people like me are doing the same thing prior to day one of LS.

EDIT: This clerk now has a paid position elsewhere, it seems the WE paid off.
Last edited by Dreas on Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.




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