Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

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besitos
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Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby besitos » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:08 pm

Hello,

I am looking for some last minute help on these schools.

I wish to do government or non-profit work after graduating. I don't mind where I live as long as it is relatively close to a more urban setting where I can be exposed to culture if I want to. I have a slight aversion to Mitchell's location because I am not sure how diverse the Twin Cities are.

I understand that these are lower ranked schools and that I will be in debt for many years. I was not able to obtain a higher LSAT and this is the last year I can use this score since it's from 2007 and am not at all sure that a retake would result in any difference. My current situation is taxing emotionally and I don't think I would be able to give studying my all at this time. If I changed my situation with a different job I could retake the LSAT but I would like opinions with my current options.

As I said I understand the debt that comes with attending these schools, and that is actually a lessor factor in my decision than whether or not I will be able to do the kind of work I want in the local govt or advising local NPOs and businesses (as in, I would suck it up and cut out extra expenses in order to do this work). I know that Willamette touts its connections to their local government, Valpo I'm not sure, but it appears to stress that its writing curriculum is respected by local employers, and William Mitchell has a large network that allows decent placement in mid-size firms. However that is not the kind of employment I'm seeking.

Mitchell has given 20% scholarship provided I maintain a 2.0. I don't have complete financial information on the other two.

Does anyone have information on Valparaiso's placement? I'd appreciate stories from recent grads. Thank you.

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moonman157
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby moonman157 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:15 pm

I read through this very briefly, while a bit intoxicated, and thought that William Mitchell was a law firm and was wondering why you put this in the law school admissions forum. Hope this helps. Best of luck with your decision.

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goldeneye
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby goldeneye » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:17 pm

you probably aren't going to happy with the responses on this site. even a 20% scholarship at WM isn't that great for the job prospects. none of these schools really offer that much. if you could dedicate yourself to the lsat one last time, you could improve your chances greatly, even get money at Minnesota.

Total Litigator
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby Total Litigator » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:32 pm

If you don't have a connection to the location these law schools are in, don't go. The only way people get jobs from these schools are great law school grades + meaningful connection to the region.

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dpk711
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby dpk711 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:45 pm

Absent unique circumstances, I would avoid these schools.

rad lulz
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby rad lulz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:46 pm

Going to these also-ran schools when you're not even from these areas would be sublime idiocy.

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romothesavior
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:52 pm

All three of these schools are very similar and have very similar placement into similar areas.

If my "area" you mean the unemployment line.

rad lulz
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby rad lulz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:54 pm

romothesavior wrote:All three of these schools are very similar and have very similar placement into similar areas.

If my "area" you mean the unemployment line.

I recommend OP retake or don't go/work on his food stamps app.

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IAFG
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby IAFG » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:56 pm

You're worried Twin Cities aren't diverse enough but are sure Salem, OR will be fine?

besitos
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby besitos » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:41 pm

I think romo is saying it doesn't matter where I go, alright, point taken.

like I said I've accepted my options of not making a lot of money from this type of school. I'll repeat that I don't really care where I live, just prefer that it is reasonably close to a more cultured area. Portland is about an hour from Salem, but the Twin Cities aren't an hour away from somewhere more urban. If idiocy derives from not being from the area one goes to school, I'd think it was because that person does not want to live there or has no connections. I don't have much family anywhere and no legal connections anywhere so I'd be in the same boat if I went to somewhere closer to me. The connections would have to be unique to the school and the area.

rma
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby rma » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:46 pm

I honestly don't think you'll be happy at any of these places. I understand your hesitation with a re-take, but honestly it would do you a ton of good, and there really is no risk.

Are you currently employed? Because if you are, spending a year to re-take a re-apply is the best possible solution, imo.

abc12345675
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby abc12345675 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:50 pm

besitos wrote:I think romo is saying it doesn't matter where I go, alright, point taken.

like I said I've accepted my options of not making a lot of money from this type of school. I'll repeat that I don't really care where I live, just prefer that it is reasonably close to a more cultured area. Portland is about an hour from Salem, but the Twin Cities aren't an hour away from somewhere more urban. If idiocy derives from not being from the area one goes to school, I'd think it was because that person does not want to live there or has no connections. I don't have much family anywhere and no legal connections anywhere so I'd
be in the same boat if I went to somewhere closer to me. The connections would have to be unique to the school and the area.


If you MUST choose from these, I'd go William Mitchell. Although you'd be better off at St. Thomas up there instead of WM. But nevertheless it's your best bet of these. Twin Cities is a great place to live if you can shrug off the cold winters.

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IAFG
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby IAFG » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:54 pm

besitos wrote:I think romo is saying it doesn't matter where I go, alright, point taken.

like I said I've accepted my options of not making a lot of money from this type of school. I'll repeat that I don't really care where I live, just prefer that it is reasonably close to a more cultured area. Portland is about an hour from Salem, but the Twin Cities aren't an hour away from somewhere more urban. If idiocy derives from not being from the area one goes to school, I'd think it was because that person does not want to live there or has no connections. I don't have much family anywhere and no legal connections anywhere so I'd be in the same boat if I went to somewhere closer to me. The connections would have to be unique to the school and the area.

The point is that an Oregon or Minnesota employer isn't going to pick you over someone who grew up locally. But bigger than that, Minnesota and Oregon don't really have many legal employers. You will be significantly fucked from any of these schools. I grew up in Oregon and couldn't get a job there or in Seattle from T14, because there just are not jobs.

abc12345675
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby abc12345675 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:56 pm

IAFG wrote:
besitos wrote:I think romo is saying it doesn't matter where I go, alright, point taken.

like I said I've accepted my options of not making a lot of money from this type of school. I'll repeat that I don't really care where I live, just prefer that it is reasonably close to a more cultured area. Portland is about an hour from Salem, but the Twin Cities aren't an hour away from somewhere more urban. If idiocy derives from not being from the area one goes to school, I'd think it was because that person does not want to live there or has no connections. I don't have much family anywhere and no legal connections anywhere so I'd be in the same boat if I went to somewhere closer to me. The connections would have to be unique to the school and the area.

The point is that an Oregon or Minnesota employer isn't going to pick you over someone who grew up locally. But bigger than that, Minnesota and Oregon don't really have many legal employers. You will be significantly fucked from any of these schools. I grew up in Oregon and couldn't get a job there or in Seattle from T14, because there just are not jobs.


Depends on how you define "jobs." Want to fuck around with wills and the like? You can find something.

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DCDuck
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby DCDuck » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:56 pm

The post above me is correct: Oregon is small. Oregon's legal market is small. Oregon's government is small and insular. According to Willamette's own website, only 8% of grads from the class of 2010 were working in government positions (which surprised me, because Willamette does have the reputation as being the "government" school of the state. If you go, expend serious effort netowrking. Good luck!

rad lulz
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:49 pm

abc12345675 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
besitos wrote:I think romo is saying it doesn't matter where I go, alright, point taken.

like I said I've accepted my options of not making a lot of money from this type of school. I'll repeat that I don't really care where I live, just prefer that it is reasonably close to a more cultured area. Portland is about an hour from Salem, but the Twin Cities aren't an hour away from somewhere more urban. If idiocy derives from not being from the area one goes to school, I'd think it was because that person does not want to live there or has no connections. I don't have much family anywhere and no legal connections anywhere so I'd be in the same boat if I went to somewhere closer to me. The connections would have to be unique to the school and the area.

The point is that an Oregon or Minnesota employer isn't going to pick you over someone who grew up locally. But bigger than that, Minnesota and Oregon don't really have many legal employers. You will be significantly fucked from any of these schools. I grew up in Oregon and couldn't get a job there or in Seattle from T14, because there just are not jobs.


Depends on how you define "jobs." Want to fuck around with wills and the like? You can find something.

Employment stats from these schools suggest the opposite.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:29 pm

OP: Even if you had been offered substantial scholarships from all three law schools, I would suggest retaking the LSAT & reapplying next cycle.

However, if you insist on attending law school this Fall, then ask all three schools for at least 50% tuition scholarships.

P.S. If you are emotionally unprepared to study for an LSAT retake, then maybe you should wait a few years for law school.

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romothesavior
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:25 pm

besitos wrote:I think romo is saying it doesn't matter where I go, alright, point taken.

I think romo is saying your odds of unemployment or severe underempolyment are very high from any of these three schools.

According to the ABA placement surveys for 2011 graduates:

-At Willamette, 47% landed full-time, bar-passage required jobs. Of that 47%, over half were working in firms of 10 or less (which for most, means making a low salary). But you want to do government or PI right? Well just 12% of students got one of those jobs. I imagine the half of students without legal jobs at all would claw their own testicles off for one of those PI or government jobs you think you can just waltz on into. Don't fool yourself into thinking they are easier to get. They're not.

-It gets worse. Just 43% of William Mitchell students secured full-time, bar-passage required jobs. Of that 43%, nearly half were in firms of 10 or fewer people. Only 8.7% got jobs in government or public interest.

-Finally, a pathetic 42% of Valpo students secured full-time, bar-passage required jobs. Of these 42%, 2 out of 3 are at firms of 10 or fewer. 7% are in government or PI.

These are all statistics reported to the ABA by the schools themselves. By any measure, they are horrific. Only a fool would attend one of these schools without a full-ride and ties.

rad lulz
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:51 pm

romothesavior wrote:
besitos wrote:I think romo is saying it doesn't matter where I go, alright, point taken.

I think romo is saying your odds of unemployment or severe underempolyment are very high from any of these three schools.

According to the ABA placement surveys for 2011 graduates:

-At Willamette, 47% landed full-time, bar-passage required jobs. Of that 47%, over half were working in firms of 10 or less (which for most, means making a low salary). But you want to do government or PI right? Well just 12% of students got one of those jobs. I imagine the half of students without legal jobs at all would claw their own testicles off for one of those PI or government jobs you think you can just waltz on into. Don't fool yourself into thinking they are easier to get. They're not.

-It gets worse. Just 43% of William Mitchell students secured full-time, bar-passage required jobs. Of that 43%, nearly half were in firms of 10 or fewer people. Only 8.7% got jobs in government or public interest.

-Finally, a pathetic 42% of Valpo students secured full-time, bar-passage required jobs. Of these 42%, 2 out of 3 are at firms of 10 or fewer. 7% are in government or PI.

These are all statistics reported to the ABA by the schools themselves. By any measure, they are horrific. Only a fool would attend one of these schools without a full-ride and ties.

This.

It doesn't matter in the sense that from all schools you have a solid shot at penury and messing up your life.

800lb
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby 800lb » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:56 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:P.S. If you are emotionally unprepared to study for an LSAT retake, then maybe you should wait a few years for law school.


This is really important. 1L exams are harder than the LSAT. Law school takes up a ton of time and is, generally, not the thing to do if you need to chill out and un-fuck your head. I was pretty zen when I entered last fall, and I needed some serious R & R after finals. If you're not feeling up to studying for the LSAT again, I don't know if you're going to be successful.

besitos
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby besitos » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:44 pm

800lb wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:P.S. If you are emotionally unprepared to study for an LSAT retake, then maybe you should wait a few years for law school.


This is really important. 1L exams are harder than the LSAT. Law school takes up a ton of time and is, generally, not the thing to do if you need to chill out and un-fuck your head. I was pretty zen when I entered last fall, and I needed some serious R & R after finals. If you're not feeling up to studying for the LSAT again, I don't know if you're going to be successful.


This is something i hadn't considered. But the emotional situation will resolve itself when i no longer work where i do.

besitos
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby besitos » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:50 pm

romothesavior wrote:
besitos wrote:I think romo is saying it doesn't matter where I go, alright, point taken.

I think romo is saying your odds of unemployment or severe underempolyment are very high from any of these three schools.

According to the ABA placement surveys for 2011 graduates:

-At Willamette, 47% landed full-time, bar-passage required jobs. Of that 47%, over half were working in firms of 10 or less (which for most, means making a low salary). But you want to do government or PI right? Well just 12% of students got one of those jobs. I imagine the half of students without legal jobs at all would claw their own testicles off for one of those PI or government jobs you think you can just waltz on into. Don't fool yourself into thinking they are easier to get. They're not.

-It gets worse. Just 43% of William Mitchell students secured full-time, bar-passage required jobs. Of that 43%, nearly half were in firms of 10 or fewer people. Only 8.7% got jobs in government or public interest.

-Finally, a pathetic 42% of Valpo students secured full-time, bar-passage required jobs. Of these 42%, 2 out of 3 are at firms of 10 or fewer. 7% are in government or PI.

These are all statistics reported to the ABA by the schools themselves. By any measure, they are horrific. Only a fool would attend one of these schools without a full-ride and ties.


right, that the odds are about the same from each school relative to its own market -- which i am a little surprised to hear... I had looked at the LSAC data but i dont remember it being that low. I was probably looking at all employment since I thought a PI job might be listed under business/industry stat if it wasn't with the govt. Thanks for reiterating current figures.. im a little different and perhaps that kind of fool to be willing to incur debt for a PI job/underemployment but I did believe the numbers were higher.

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romothesavior
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:09 pm

Well then good luck. But don't bitch when you're unemployed in three years. You have a better chance of betting black at a roulette table than you do of getting a full-time, bar-passage job at these schools.

averagejoe
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby averagejoe » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:02 pm

None of them. Go to a State school somewhere in the Northwest: North or South Dakota, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Utah

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romanticegotist
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Re: Willamette vs. Valparaiso vs. William Mitchell

Postby romanticegotist » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:18 am

Also note that the Twin Cities are both extremely large (about 4-5 million in the entire metro area, I think...could be a bit off) and pretty diverse, with a lot of unique and interesting minority communities (Hmong, Somali, American Indian) and associated non-profits. If that's your bag and you have the hustle to follow-up on connections and graduate top of the class at WM then I suppose things could go ok. I say wait and re-take.




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