In at Stanford: Class of 2015

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Stig
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby Stig » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:57 pm

yeah, the bar review emails are pretty epic.

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BioEBear2010
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby BioEBear2010 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:40 pm

Stig wrote:yeah, the bar review emails are pretty epic.

I'm fairly confident he has spent more time crafting those emails than most of us have spent studying for exams. C'est la vie.

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AmandaPB
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby AmandaPB » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:43 pm

BioEBear2010 wrote:
Stig wrote:yeah, the bar review emails are pretty epic.

I'm fairly confident he has spent more time crafting those emails than most of us have spent studying for exams. C'est la vie.

Hahahahahhaaaaaa

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Perdevise
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby Perdevise » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:50 pm

I am happy to see such enthusiastic students.

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beevs
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby beevs » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:21 pm

AmandaPB wrote:I’m actually really excited about borrowing pants from this man. He has an awesome collection.


Was not in a hurry to check my email until this. Oh my. ASW here we come.

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takehold
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby takehold » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:08 am

Perdevise wrote:I am happy to see such enthusiastic students.


+1

Dani.B
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby Dani.B » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:58 pm

I created a Sunet ID a couple of days ago but still can't access email. Anyone in the same boat?

I'm ready to see my award package. :lol:

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AmandaPB
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby AmandaPB » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:51 pm

Dani.B wrote:I created a Sunet ID a couple of days ago but still can't access email. Anyone in the same boat?

I'm ready to see my award package. :lol:

Access what email? I can’t either and I made mine months ago. I don’t think we get that until later. You should be able to access AXESS, though, to view your letter.

slsorhls
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby slsorhls » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:22 pm

Is it a myth that Stanford gives more than HY? I mean, technically the amount may be more, but the overall debt is the same. So technically they give you more money, but their tuition/cost of living (i.e. total budget) is higher. Looks like in the end debt will be about the same. Am I missing something?

It looks like the larger student budget is due to more expensive health insurance and a slightly higher allowance for cost of living and books/supplies.

bleepbloop
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby bleepbloop » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:50 pm

slsorhls wrote:Is it a myth that Stanford gives more than HY? I mean, technically the amount may be more, but the overall debt is the same. So technically they give you more money, but their tuition/cost of living (i.e. total budget) is higher. Looks like in the end debt will be about the same. Am I missing something?

It looks like the larger student budget is due to more expensive health insurance and a slightly higher allowance for cost of living and books/supplies.


Stanford regularly gives better award packages than Harvard--but that is not the case compared to Yale. Y and S may alternate between which one gives better fin. aid to a specific applicant. I was given about $10,000 more by Yale, though I've also heard the opposite. Harvard gave me by far the worst package of any school.

slsorhls
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby slsorhls » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:14 am

bleepbloop wrote:
slsorhls wrote:Is it a myth that Stanford gives more than HY? I mean, technically the amount may be more, but the overall debt is the same. So technically they give you more money, but their tuition/cost of living (i.e. total budget) is higher. Looks like in the end debt will be about the same. Am I missing something?

It looks like the larger student budget is due to more expensive health insurance and a slightly higher allowance for cost of living and books/supplies.


Stanford regularly gives better award packages than Harvard--but that is not the case compared to Yale. Y and S may alternate between which one gives better fin. aid to a specific applicant. I was given about $10,000 more by Yale, though I've also heard the opposite. Harvard gave me by far the worst package of any school.


Can you clarify if you are thinking in simple terms of amount or in the much more important/relevant issue of gaps between grant aid and the student budget, i.e. amount of debt you will incur. I hope people are actually taking the time to look at that rather than simply declaring the winner the biggest number.

More isn't "better" if it really amounts to just about the same once you factor in higher costs as part of the student budget.

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BioEBear2010
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby BioEBear2010 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:25 am

slsorhls wrote:Can you clarify if you are thinking in simple terms of amount or in the much more important/relevant issue of gaps between grant aid and the student budget, i.e. amount of debt you will incur. I hope people are actually taking the time to look at that rather than simply declaring the winner the biggest number.

More isn't "better" if it really amounts to just about the same once you factor in higher costs as part of the student budget.

I'd be surprised if the student budget were appreciably different between the three schools (i.e., enough to be the sole reason for choosing one school over another, given similar financial aid awards). And in any event, there are cost-saving measures one can take (i.e., opting out of school healthcare plans or living in cheaper housing) in any of the three locations. While it's always wise to do your due diligence, I won't let nickels and dimes--if that's what the difference ends up being--determine where you end up.
Last edited by BioEBear2010 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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soj
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby soj » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:29 am

slsorhls wrote:Can you clarify if you are thinking in simple terms of amount or in the much more important/relevant issue of gaps between grant aid and the student budget, i.e. amount of debt you will incur. I hope people are actually taking the time to look at that rather than simply declaring the winner the biggest number.

More isn't "better" if it really amounts to just about the same once you factor in higher costs as part of the student budget.

Looking at your post history, I hate to put a damper on your crusade against TLS anti-HLS trolling :roll: , but Stanford isn't that much more expensive than Harvard.

Stanford's student budget for 2012-13 is a little less than $2,000 more than Harvard's and a little less than $4,000 more than Yale's. If you look at just the tuition, Stanford is actually the cheapest of the three. While living in Palo Alto is very expensive, Cambridge isn't exactly cheap, and I have a feeling Harvard's student budget is tighter than Stanford's. Compare the books and supplies allowance, for instance: Harvard's is $1,200, while Stanford's is $1,950. Even with more courses under Stanford's quarter system, I can't imagine you'd spend $750 more on textbooks at SLS than you would at HLS. I wouldn't be surprised if the actual costs of attending Harvard and Stanford are similar.

slsorhls
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby slsorhls » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:58 am

I'd be surprised if the student budget were appreciably different between the three schools (i.e., enough to be the sole reason for choosing one school over another, given similar financial aid awards).


Listen, if the difference in financial aid awards between SLS and HLS is 1-5K, it's meaningless and in fact swallowed up by SLS's higher costs. That's what matters here. It means that even if SLS offers more, it isn't necessarily offering the best aid overall.

I'm trying to gauge whether people are actually getting award packages with more than 5K of an advantage from SLS. Then it would go above the student budget differences.

And in any event, there are cost-saving measures one can take (i.e., opting out of school healthcare plans or living in cheaper housing) in any of the three locations.


Not necessarily. For instance, SLS has a $1,395 "student services fee."

While it's always wise to do your due diligence, I won't let nickels and dimes--if that's what the difference ends up being--determine where you end up.


I agree. My main concern here is whether or not SLS really provides better overall packages in general. I'm not sure if people mean they are getting slightly higher awards or a truly better overall package.

slsorhls
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby slsorhls » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:09 am

Looking at your post history, I hate to put a damper on your crusade against TLS anti-HLS trolling


I wish I could be arguing more often in favor of Stanford, but it seems like everyone else is already doing that, so it's no fun. There are many, many amazing things about SLS worth talking about.

Stanford's student budget for 2012-13 is a little less than $2,000 more than Harvard's


There's an updated SLS budget reflecting an increase to room and board. The end result is SLS is about 4K above HLS.

If you look at just the tuition, Stanford is actually the cheapest of the three.


Only because Stanford puts the $1,395 student services fee on a separate line. If you factor that in, HLS has the cheapest tuition (they apparently include their student services fee in their tuition listing):

SLS:
Tuition $48,870
Student Services Fee $1,395
TOTAL: $50,265

HLS:
Tuition $ 49,950

While living in Palo Alto is very expensive, Cambridge isn't exactly cheap, and I have a feeling Harvard's student budget is tighter than Stanford's. Compare the books and supplies allowance, for instance: Harvard's is $1,200, while Stanford's is $1,950. Even with more courses under Stanford's quarter system, I can't imagine you'd spend $750 more on textbooks at SLS than you would at HLS.


I think you're right on that. But it's a waste of time to debate the more flexible aspects of the budget like this and travel, for instance. HLS has a much bigger allocation for travel. But at the end of the day, students may end up dipping in to one part for another part. What we should compare are things like tuition, health insurance and cost of living.

I wouldn't be surprised if the actual costs of attending Harvard and Stanford are similar.


Pretty similar, yeah. But apparently if you factor in the SLS health insurance and cost of living, SLS is going to be 1-5K more, which is reflected in their budget.

The upshot is that a person who gets a 1-5K larger award from SLS should take the time to actually think about overall costs before declaring SLS the winner.

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BioEBear2010
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby BioEBear2010 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:16 am

slsorhls wrote:Quote:
And in any event, there are cost-saving measures one can take (i.e., opting out of school healthcare plans or living in cheaper housing) in any of the three locations.


Not necessarily. For instance, SLS has a $1,395 "student services fee."

That you point out one fee which cannot be waived does not disprove the availability of other cost-saving measures . . .

And in any event, you are facing quite an uphill battle if you are trying to determine which school offers "better" packages on average, particularly with such a limited data set. The schools likely offer the same students different packages. Further, the schools don't even admit the same applicants. SLS could be offering large awards to students HLS doesn't admit, and vice versa.

Then again, I'm really tired and am probably making little sense.

slsorhls
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby slsorhls » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:30 am

BioEBear2010 wrote:
slsorhls wrote:Quote:
And in any event, there are cost-saving measures one can take (i.e., opting out of school healthcare plans or living in cheaper housing) in any of the three locations.

Not necessarily. For instance, SLS has a $1,395 "student services fee."

That you point out one fee which cannot be waived does not disprove the availability of other cost-saving measures . . .


Right, I didn't negate that there are cost-saving measures. That's sort of besides the point. Take this example. Say tuition at school A is $5,000, and tuition at school B is $10,000. There's an objective difference of $5,000.

Now, you could try to take cost-saving measures to make up for that difference. But the bottom line is there's a difference, and if school B offered you $5,000 more in aid than school A, it would be meaningless. I think that at least for students who are going to take the health insurance and maybe even those who don't, SLS will be a bit more than HLS.

The question is whether the aid being offered rises above that difference. As you pointed out, we need more data. I'm waiting to see people comment on that.

Further, the schools don't even admit the same applicants. SLS could be offering large awards to students HLS doesn't admit, and vice versa.


That's true, but I guess it makes sense overall to compare HYS on this because they have the only 100% need-based financial aid programs among top law schools.

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soj
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby soj » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:59 am

Good catch with the student services fee. I agree you should be comparing expected debt rather than scholarship amounts, but the difference between H and S seems close to $2K/year. $5K is an overestimate. Maybe if you're comparing Gropius vs. Munger.

As for the conventional wisdom that YS are more generous than H, this comes from reports of people in the past who've received aid packages from them. I doubt these people would be claiming YS are more generous without doing their own debt calculations, taking into account different costs of attending.

For what it's worth, here are three of the very few cross-admits in recent years who actually reported on LSN how much money they got at HYS. As always, take these with a grain of salt.
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/clydebarrow
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/gwb
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/quovado

Finally, it really doesn't matter if one school is generally more generous than another because the schools use different formulas--a student might end up getting more aid from a "less generous" school. SLS has a lower base loan ($37,000 in 2012-13) than HLS does ($42,200 in 2012-13). That means an extremely needy student receiving maximum funding at both schools would receive $5,200 (plus the difference between the SLS and HLS student budgets) more per year in grants at SLS than at HLS. But the vast majority of students aren't that needy, and for those students, it all depends on their individual situations. It's not like everyone receives $5,200 (plus the difference between the student budgets) more at SLS than at HLS.

Don't worry about which school is more generally generous, and just compare the packages you get.

slsorhls
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby slsorhls » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:32 am

SLS has a lower base loan ($37,000 in 2012-13)


I haven't seen that published anywhere. How do you know?

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soj
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby soj » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:34 am

slsorhls wrote:
SLS has a lower base loan ($37,000 in 2012-13)


I haven't seen that published anywhere. How do you know?

http://www.law.stanford.edu/program/tui ... 012-13.pdf

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beevs
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby beevs » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:05 am

Just adding my two cents here. And slsorhls, you and I have spoken privately, so you know I'm not an sls "Troll". I just think this is one area sls really does usually have an edge.

I've seen posts claiming that Stanford offered 5x the grant aid of Harvard (something like 4k/yr from Harvard, 20k/yr from Stanford). Of course, I think this is a really extreme case, and I won't know how justified my fears are in aid discrepancy until I get my awards. However, I don't think the difference between the two aid systems is small enough to make an argument based on CoL or any other fees. I think the gap is generally quite appreciable. Looking at median grant aid, Harvard's is reported around 15k, Stanford's at 22k. I've spoken to several people above the age of 30 with several dependents, supposedly Harvard's more generously awarded type, who felt forced to choose other options due to aid even when Harvard was their top choice.

I am also tired, so excuse the laziness in finding the links to posts...I can track it down later if need be. I have a feeling you'll ask.

thisguy456
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby thisguy456 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:07 am

soj wrote:Don't worry about which school is more generally generous, and just compare the packages you get.

Geneva
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby Geneva » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:38 am

CONGRATS everyone! I applied late in the game and am still waiting for a decision, but would like to live vicariously through you all for as long as possible...
Oh, if anyone wrote a LOCI and was accepted, please PM me! Trying to muddle my way through the LOCI dos and donts and would appreciate as much feedback as possible. Thanks:)

Dani.B
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby Dani.B » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:49 am

AmandaPB wrote:
Dani.B wrote:I created a Sunet ID a couple of days ago but still can't access email. Anyone in the same boat?

I'm ready to see my award package. :lol:

Access what email? I can’t either and I made mine months ago. I don’t think we get that until later. You should be able to access AXESS, though, to view your letter.


Ok, an earlier poster and friend of mine said they received emails with their award.

I went to Axess and it says no award letter, so they must not have gotten to me yet.

thanks

southwick
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Re: In at Stanford: Class of 2015

Postby southwick » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:50 am

Just observing that the travel difference between the budgets probably does mirror costs . . . taking the T/bus in Boston versus riding your bike from EV or walking from Munger.




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