CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

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binkshurts
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby binkshurts » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:27 am

As of now, cuny law has a bar pass rate of 67%

http://m.nypost.com/p/news/local/cuny_l ... OQWORm2SrO

Any thoughts?

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NYC KID
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby NYC KID » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:37 am

Not particularly a good sign, but at least they've taken steps to try and remedy the situation.

overunderachiever
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby overunderachiever » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:20 am

binkshurts wrote:As of now, cuny law has a bar pass rate of 67%

http://m.nypost.com/p/news/local/cuny_l ... OQWORm2SrO

Any thoughts?


CUNY has had trouble with the bar in the past.There has been alot of debate between faculty and students about why this is so. The general consensus is that our professor's don't "teach for the bar" and focus too much on the public interest aspects of the courses. Another reason that has been cited as to why the bar passage rate has been so low is the clinic's are too demanding and they take too much of your time as a 3L here. Whatever the reason, the school definitely sees this as a huge problem and they took steps to try and fix that problem, even after opposition from the current student body.

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fatpeopleavenger
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby fatpeopleavenger » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:33 am

overunderachiever wrote:
binkshurts wrote:As of now, cuny law has a bar pass rate of 67%

http://m.nypost.com/p/news/local/cuny_l ... OQWORm2SrO

Any thoughts?


CUNY has had trouble with the bar in the past.There has been alot of debate between faculty and students about why this is so. The general consensus is that our professor's don't "teach for the bar" and focus too much on the public interest aspects of the courses. Another reason that has been cited as to why the bar passage rate has been so low is the clinic's are too demanding and they take too much of your time as a 3L here. Whatever the reason, the school definitely sees this as a huge problem and they took steps to try and fix that problem, even after opposition from the current student body.


Low bar passage doesn't bother me simply because of the bolded. I rather get a real training as oppose to learning how to pass the bar exam (which seems like a T4 method). A smart enough person can always learn and pass the bar exam on their own. Of course, if there is any sort of program to help the students pass the bar exam without sacrificing the clinical aspect, that would be a plus.

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scrowell
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby scrowell » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:14 pm

Hey everyone, current 1L here. If anyone has specific questions about anything feel free to PM me.

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2LT_CPG
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby 2LT_CPG » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:03 am

I sent my application on 1/5, I've been complete for about a week now. I really hope this isn't as drawn out as last year seems to have been. Looks like a good number of early January applicants last year heard back in February though.

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fatpeopleavenger
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby fatpeopleavenger » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:46 am

2LT_CPG wrote:I sent my application on 1/5, I've been complete for about a week now. I really hope this isn't as drawn out as last year seems to have been. Looks like a good number of early January applicants last year heard back in February though.


someone (other than a poster in this thread) told me CUNY got far more apps this time of the year than last. I guess the move from T4 to T3 is doing them a big favor. I hope CUNY is not trying to game the rankings. It would be such a sellout thing to do.

My point is, i think majority of us won't hear back until at least April.

LawperaMan
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby LawperaMan » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:58 am

Not to be overly cynical, but ALL law schools game the rankings. That is simply how it works. And in the end, a higher ranking for CUNY is better for its graduates (and probably for the public it serves as well).

Better rankings = attract better candidates = more successful lawyers = more money comes back to the school = school improves = better rankings

hopefully. I think moving to their new location will be a HUGE boost for them as well.

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fatpeopleavenger
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby fatpeopleavenger » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:10 pm

LawperaMan wrote:Not to be overly cynical, but ALL law schools game the rankings. That is simply how it works. And in the end, a higher ranking for CUNY is better for its graduates (and probably for the public it serves as well).

Better rankings = attract better candidates = more successful lawyers = more money comes back to the school = school improves = better rankings

hopefully. I think moving to their new location will be a HUGE boost for them as well.


And that is unfortunate that law firms, law schools, and most applicants look at the USNews rankings (including the posters in this forum) as if it is law school bible. It should be looked at as a basis for research, nothing else. Ultimately, one has to decide the best law school for him/herself. I understand this is a gunners' forum so rank is highly valued here.

CUNY (both undergrads and graduates institutes) has a reputation to provide education to those who come from the lower class and/or underrepresented groups. That is CUNY's mission statement. Believe it or not, some of us never had the resources needed to do well in standardize exams. I understand gaming the rankings is ultimately good for the school, but imho they would be losing their identity as well.

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2LT_CPG
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby 2LT_CPG » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:13 pm

Has anyone been to the LIC location yet? I drove by quickly yesterday... looked like a cool building and all. It's odd that I can't find any photos or concept graphics on the CUNY website. Does this have something to do with it possibly still being up in the air?

EDIT: Some quick googling led me to this: --LinkRemoved--

So there. But anyway, yeah the new facilities honestly are going to factor in my decision. I like everything about the school from everything I've read about it and from what I've gotten from alums and my pre-law advisor. But if there's one thing I got out of my visit to the Flushing campus yesterday, it was that the facilities were its weakest selling point. Moving into a modern building (not a refurbished middle school) makes CUNY a viable choice for me. Which is the point I guess.

Still, I'd like a Flickr album or something of the construction site.

NYCLSATTutor
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby NYCLSATTutor » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:40 pm

A few things.

1) The LIC location is supposed to be pretty nice. No idea why they don't have pics, but its somewhat fancy so I hear. They are moving to LIC 100%.

2) CUNY does NOT game the system. CUNY cares about a few things. They care about bar passage rate (a lot). They care about having students who haven't been given great chances in life a chance. They care about students who will go out and serve the public good.

3) Yes CUNY has more applications this year. It probably has nothing to do with its rank and everything to do with the fact that the economy is terrible and CUNY is one of the cheapest schools in the country. The reason that CUNY is taking so long to get back to people is because they had a glitch in the system that deals with LSAC and it took forever for them to start receiving applications (also the application itself came out much later than scheduled).

4) Lawpera...the flaw in your equation is the definition of "better candidates". CUNY thinks that better candidates are those who will pass the bar and go out and do great things to serve the public good. Your version seems to depend on how much money those lawyers are going to earn. CUNY graduates no matter how successful are generally not going to be able to give huge endowments back to the school. Why? Because CUNY graduates idea of being successful is making a difference in the world, not in raking in wads of cash.

LawperaMan
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby LawperaMan » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:01 pm

NYCLSATTutor wrote:
4) Lawpera...the flaw in your equation is the definition of "better candidates". CUNY thinks that better candidates are those who will pass the bar and go out and do great things to serve the public good. Your version seems to depend on how much money those lawyers are going to earn. CUNY graduates no matter how successful are generally not going to be able to give huge endowments back to the school. Why? Because CUNY graduates idea of being successful is making a difference in the world, not in raking in wads of cash.


First, I love what CUNY is doing and I think more state schools should be doing this. This is what state-funded education institutions should be about. Plus, I have a massive crush on the red-haired admissions rep who was at the NYC LSAC Forum, but that is neither here nor there...Please don't think I was bashing them or being condescending in the least.

By "better candidates" and "better lawyers" I did not necessarily mean people gunning for Biglaw jobs/salaries. I mean people whose academic records suggest that they can succeed in law school, pass the bar and succeed as lawyers. I have several friends looking for work in public service jobs (yes I understand the value of sample size in statistics, but bear with me), and the thing they were shocked to learn is that the competition for those jobs is at least as fierce as it is for Biglaw jobs. And the employers still focus on law school prestige. As CUNY's reputation improves, so will the job prospects for its graduates and the likelihood that their success in their field will eventually translate into greater earnings (as a judge, DA, politician, etc etc), which could benefit the school and perpetuate the cycle.

While I don't believe UGPA or LSAT are perfect indicators of future success, extremely low numbers might bode poorly for future bar passage. If they can't pass the bar, the rest doesn't really matter.

Also, I used to work at the Citibank building across the street from the new CUNY campus. The building is beautiful (at least from the outside) and it is one subway stop from midtown Manhattan, so you really can't beat it.

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fatpeopleavenger
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby fatpeopleavenger » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:08 pm

My HS is near the new building, so the new location would be very convenient for me. I would love to see the pics of the inside of the building. If anyone has em, please post it up. :D

I'm still debating whether I want to get into criminal or immigration law. I guess i'll find out which I like better once I'm in law school. Maybe CUNY can help me answer this question?!?

NYCLSATTutor
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby NYCLSATTutor » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:07 pm

LawperaMan wrote:
NYCLSATTutor wrote:
4) Lawpera...the flaw in your equation is the definition of "better candidates". CUNY thinks that better candidates are those who will pass the bar and go out and do great things to serve the public good. Your version seems to depend on how much money those lawyers are going to earn. CUNY graduates no matter how successful are generally not going to be able to give huge endowments back to the school. Why? Because CUNY graduates idea of being successful is making a difference in the world, not in raking in wads of cash.


First, I love what CUNY is doing and I think more state schools should be doing this. This is what state-funded education institutions should be about. Plus, I have a massive crush on the red-haired admissions rep who was at the NYC LSAC Forum, but that is neither here nor there...Please don't think I was bashing them or being condescending in the least.

By "better candidates" and "better lawyers" I did not necessarily mean people gunning for Biglaw jobs/salaries. I mean people whose academic records suggest that they can succeed in law school, pass the bar and succeed as lawyers. I have several friends looking for work in public service jobs (yes I understand the value of sample size in statistics, but bear with me), and the thing they were shocked to learn is that the competition for those jobs is at least as fierce as it is for Biglaw jobs. And the employers still focus on law school prestige. As CUNY's reputation improves, so will the job prospects for its graduates and the likelihood that their success in their field will eventually translate into greater earnings (as a judge, DA, politician, etc etc), which could benefit the school and perpetuate the cycle.

While I don't believe UGPA or LSAT are perfect indicators of future success, extremely low numbers might bode poorly for future bar passage. If they can't pass the bar, the rest doesn't really matter.

Also, I used to work at the Citibank building across the street from the new CUNY campus. The building is beautiful (at least from the outside) and it is one subway stop from midtown Manhattan, so you really can't beat it.


It is incredibly hard to determine which types of people, based on their records, can pass the bar and succeed as attorneys. GPA? Well thats oftentimes linked to the type of classes you took/where you went to school. LSAT? Well that is often linked to what one majored in or ones income level. Letters of Recommendation? Eh most of them aren't impressive. So the difficulty is determining which factors are most important especially when you can't choose the people who have incredibly impressive LSAT/GPA/Letters of Rec like some schools can.

I'm not an expert in public interest law, but I do know a bit. It is my opinion from what I have seen that CUNY is the 2nd (maybe 3rd) best law school to attend in NYC for public interest with NYU being the best and possibly Columbia being the second. Why? Because public interest people care about connections. They care about having someone who they know who says you are devoted to serving the public. They know about the stereotype that PI people are all private-firm rejects and they aren't a fan of that stereotype at all. And, honestly, what way is there to better declare you are devoted to serving the public interest than by going to a law school devoted to that, and only that?

You are right when you say that public interest is competitive. Especially in NYC where you have more lawyers than money and the money for serving the public seems to decrease every year. But public interest folks care about stuff other than just prestige. They care about commitment and dedication as well.

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doceydoe
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby doceydoe » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:11 pm

When it comes to NYC it almost always boils down to location.

With that in mind, that new building is making me give CUNY Law some serious consideration...that and the cheap tuition

NYC is known for having a huge income gap and the city is home to several nonprofits and government agencies like HRA etc...thus if public interest law is your chosen career path then CUNY Law is a good choice on account of its location AND mission

I know all of this but having attended CUNY for undergrad AND excelling there...I found that employment prospects were limited for myself and my graduating class...somehow my peers and I ended up in retail and waiting tables all the while wringing our hands hoping for a graduate school acceptance

CUNY Law's bar passage rate is substantially low and the school is not well regarded in the NYC legal circuit....in short, I love you CUNY but can you help me secure employment?

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scrowell
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby scrowell » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:13 pm

LawperaMan wrote:
NYCLSATTutor wrote:
4) Lawpera...the flaw in your equation is the definition of "better candidates". CUNY thinks that better candidates are those who will pass the bar and go out and do great things to serve the public good. Your version seems to depend on how much money those lawyers are going to earn. CUNY graduates no matter how successful are generally not going to be able to give huge endowments back to the school. Why? Because CUNY graduates idea of being successful is making a difference in the world, not in raking in wads of cash.


First, I love what CUNY is doing and I think more state schools should be doing this. This is what state-funded education institutions should be about. Plus, I have a massive crush on the red-haired admissions rep who was at the NYC LSAC Forum, but that is neither here nor there...Please don't think I was bashing them or being condescending in the least.

By "better candidates" and "better lawyers" I did not necessarily mean people gunning for Biglaw jobs/salaries. I mean people whose academic records suggest that they can succeed in law school, pass the bar and succeed as lawyers. I have several friends looking for work in public service jobs (yes I understand the value of sample size in statistics, but bear with me), and the thing they were shocked to learn is that the competition for those jobs is at least as fierce as it is for Biglaw jobs. And the employers still focus on law school prestige. As CUNY's reputation improves, so will the job prospects for its graduates and the likelihood that their success in their field will eventually translate into greater earnings (as a judge, DA, politician, etc etc), which could benefit the school and perpetuate the cycle.

While I don't believe UGPA or LSAT are perfect indicators of future success, extremely low numbers might bode poorly for future bar passage. If they can't pass the bar, the rest doesn't really matter.

Also, I used to work at the Citibank building across the street from the new CUNY campus. The building is beautiful (at least from the outside) and it is one subway stop from midtown Manhattan, so you really can't beat it.


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH I'm showing Gayla this!!!

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scrowell
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby scrowell » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:15 pm

2LT_CPG wrote:Has anyone been to the LIC location yet? I drove by quickly yesterday... looked like a cool building and all. It's odd that I can't find any photos or concept graphics on the CUNY website. Does this have something to do with it possibly still being up in the air?

EDIT: Some quick googling led me to this: --LinkRemoved--

So there. But anyway, yeah the new facilities honestly are going to factor in my decision. I like everything about the school from everything I've read about it and from what I've gotten from alums and my pre-law advisor. But if there's one thing I got out of my visit to the Flushing campus yesterday, it was that the facilities were its weakest selling point. Moving into a modern building (not a refurbished middle school) makes CUNY a viable choice for me. Which is the point I guess.

Still, I'd like a Flickr album or something of the construction site.


Yo man, tell everyone how good the tour I gave you was! Everyone come for a tour. I'll show you around and answer any questions (at least that a 1L could answer).

overunderachiever
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby overunderachiever » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:22 pm

doceydoe wrote:When it comes to NYC it almost always boils down to location.

With that in mind, that new building is making me give CUNY Law some serious consideration...that and the cheap tuition

NYC is known for having a huge income gap and the city is home to several nonprofits and government agencies like HRA etc...thus if public interest law is your chosen career path then CUNY Law is a good choice on account of its location AND mission

I know all of this but having attended CUNY for undergrad AND excelling there...I found that employment prospects were limited for myself and my graduating class...somehow my peers and I ended up in retail and waiting tables all the while wringing our hands hoping for a graduate school acceptance

CUNY Law's bar passage rate is substantially low and the school is not well regarded in the NYC legal circuit....in short, I love you CUNY but can you help me secure employment?


It's not fair to equate the employment prospects of their undergrads w/ the law schools....With that being said, CUNY is not as well regarded in NYC as say, Fordham, but considering the price and the fact that students who apply there do so with the intention of becoming PI lawyers, its a much safer bet than most other schools in NYC. Plus, PI employers know that CUNY grads are dedicated to PI and that is a major factor that they are looking for.

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fatpeopleavenger
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby fatpeopleavenger » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:08 pm

Is it wrong of me to hate fellow CUNY applicants who has no-little interest in PI? :o

paradox
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby paradox » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:15 pm

1. Before entering CUNY everyone may think that you want to have a career in public interest law however no one knows for certain until they have been exposed to other substantive areas. I fear that a litigation, real estate, etc. firm my disregard a CUNY grad's resume believing (correct to not) that the attorneys' training has been focused solely on not for profit concepts. My warning is that CUNY may pigeon hole a grad into public interest law and preclude later career options.

2. The poster above that indicated that they did not care about bar passage is misguided. Until you pass the bar you are not an attorney. If you are not an attorney you may lose the attorney job you were hired for. If you do not pass the bar you will not earn the salary you would if you had passed the bar.

3. I respectfully differ with the poster that indicated that CUNY is "the 2d or 3d best public interest law firm in New York City behind only NYU and Columbia". Have you ever heard of Fordham, Brooklyn, or St.John's?

4. My question: why does it appear that applications to CUNY have increased but the University of the District of Columbia (of which I know little) located in the District of Columbia has not seen the surge of applications despite what appears to be a curriculum and price point are similar to CUNY?

Thanks.

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fatpeopleavenger
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby fatpeopleavenger » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:21 pm

I also applied to and got admitted to UDC.

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fatpeopleavenger
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby fatpeopleavenger » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:23 pm

paradox wrote:4. My question: why does it appear that applications to CUNY have increased but the University of the District of Columbia (of which I know little) located in the District of Columbia has not seen the surge of applications despite what appears to be a curriculum and price point are similar to CUNY?

Thanks.


Everyone wants to live in NYC. Plus slightly higher median salary (I know I know, schools aren't honest with their numbers and/or misleading) than UDC (except a lot of people don't regard COL). I HAVE to think the move to T3 is helping them get more apps thrown their way, whether this impact is little or big I do not know.

If my LSAT doesn't improve significantly and get rejected from CUNY, I'm going to have to consider UDC really hard considering they're a PI school as well. Except I don't think UDC has nearly the same reputation that CUNY has.

overunderachiever
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby overunderachiever » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:58 pm

We have quite a number of students who reject schools such as Fordham, Brooklyn, and St. Johns in order to attend CUNY because of the low tuition.

overunderachiever
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby overunderachiever » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:06 pm

[quote="paradox"]1. Before entering CUNY everyone may think that you want to have a career in public interest law however no one knows for certain until they have been exposed to other substantive areas. I fear that a litigation, real estate, etc. firm my disregard a CUNY grad's resume believing (correct to not) that the attorneys' training has been focused solely on not for profit concepts. My warning is that CUNY may pigeon hole a grad into public interest law and preclude later career options.

I think thats why CUNY has more non-traditional students than other schools. They tend to have more experience and they have a grasp of what they want to do coming out of law school. As someone who attended straight out of undergrad though, this was a legitimate concern that I had coming in.

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fatpeopleavenger
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Re: CUNY Law C/O 2015 Applicants

Postby fatpeopleavenger » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:14 pm

overunderachiever wrote:
paradox wrote:1. Before entering CUNY everyone may think that you want to have a career in public interest law however no one knows for certain until they have been exposed to other substantive areas. I fear that a litigation, real estate, etc. firm my disregard a CUNY grad's resume believing (correct to not) that the attorneys' training has been focused solely on not for profit concepts. My warning is that CUNY may pigeon hole a grad into public interest law and preclude later career options.

I think thats why CUNY has more non-traditional students than other schools. They tend to have more experience and they have a grasp of what they want to do coming out of law school. As someone who attended straight out of undergrad though, this was a legitimate concern that I had coming in.


How important is work experience to CUNY adcom? I know CUNY is one school that values work experience. I graduated in 2010 and is only a tutor to young kids. I hope my major and curriculum will be looked at as a pro (hopefully). If someone can answer my question, greatly appreciated.




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