Rutgers-Camden Class of 2015 (2011-2012 cycle) Forum

[mrtoren]

Over the past couple of weeks, I have become connected with this school and its struggle for independence. I've read article after article, op ed after op ed. I've engaged in discussions about it on these boards and with friends and family. I do get defensive when I see people attack Rutgers-Camden and perhaps I've been a little too brash here. But I'm tired of people rooting for its demise by stirring up trouble. I'm tired of the negative, wide-spread rumors. We all know the facts of the case; we all know the potential implications. Feeding the fear by speculating upon speculations is only going to instill unfounded terror in people.

Some will counter that further discussion is necessary to "educate" prospective students in-state and out. "Further discussion," of the caliber of that has been demonstrated here, is nothing more than a cover to demonize the school. I know some of you have decided to attend law school elsewhere; I wish you the best of luck. However, for those of us still considering Rutgers-Camden, I ask that we be allowed to do so without the bias of people who have set their mind on this school's imminent downfall. Its not blind optimism or ignorance on my part, its a plea to respect what little this school has left to offer.

[highlander1]

What exactly constitutes a “good” law school?
The USNEWS ranking? How well people find jobs? How high the quality of the education is? Or how hot the girls are in your section? <-- this (lol jk).

To the above posters- While I do not think your comments toward the Rowan merger should be considered “trolling”, it is arguably offensive to the students and faculty at Camden. The merger is not final yet, and there is a possibility that it will never be. To say that Camden will automatically turn into a TTT... Well, it's not too nice. Those who are loyal to Camden are working very hard to cease the merger, and bring RU-C to its prosperity again. I hope we can all respect their efforts and stop making implications that the battle is lost (or that Camden is heading toward a permanent TTT position).

Aside from that…
For some, career prospects determine how “great” a law school is- enough for an individual to claim that Newark is superior to Camden. And, you know, I respect that person’s conclusion regarding the matter (others supported the claim with available evidence). However, to me, starting salary is not what makes attending a law school worthwhile (or in that sense, "better"). So to say Newark is superior over Camden can come off as a statement worth strongly arguing against... given that some may value Camden much higher than how others- with different priorities- might view it.

I’m choosing RU-Camden so that I can learn from the qualified faculty at an arguably fun location (CAMDEN IS AWFUL. BUT it is close to Six Flags, Atlantic City, Philly, and everything else). I am attending so that I can meet and argue with guys like Mrtoren (and I must say, as a fellow prospective student who is very loyal to RU-Camden, I admire your defense).

That being said, let’s try to tone down the heated discussion regarding the Rowan-Camden merger. I would appreciate the cooperation. This thread was originally created so that the class of 2015 (whether they decide to attend or not) can get to know each other and share their presence on TLS- not to potentially dissuade (or appear as if you are) prospective students from committing by devaluing the school.
Mrtoren did create this thread, likely for that purpose, so I ask that we all respect his original motives for doing so.

Thank you.

[highlander1]

Oh and, join the Facebook group
If you're still deciding, or decided to attend RU-Camden.
Get to know your classmates, arrange car pool for Dean's Law Day, and find roommates etc.

[Beeg12]

Highlander:

I was debating on whether or not to touch this one, I decided to make it short and sweet.

1) If you want to decide on law school without considering salary statistics (six flags, AC), that is your call. If others want to hear an analysis of stats because they are worried about debt, they have a right to hear about it if it is done in a respectful way and is properly researched.

2)How can you admire Mrtoren's "defense"? What defense? throwing a hissy fit about trolling when he was faced with insurmountable evidence against his school? An admirable defense would quote facts or statistics to make a valid point.

3) the argument was not "Heated" until Mrtoren, the resident Camden martyr, decided to act like a child and call people trolls and banish people from a public web forum.

4) this forum was not created for the purpose of future students getting to know each other. It was to ask questions and receive information. Originally intended for subjects pertaining to "Acceptances, Denials, and Waitlists", this forum took a turn because of a merger that can and may happen, and recent statistics that scare and worry possible students, such as myself.

5) thanks to Mrtoren for creating the thread, really. But that was the last time he had any control of it and he has no right to moderate it as if he is under direction of TLS.

[highlander1]

Highlander:

I was debating on whether or not to touch this one, I decided to make it short and sweet.

1) If you want to decide on law school without considering salary statistics (six flags, AC), that is your call. If others want to hear an analysis of stats because they are worried about debt, they have a right to hear about it if it is done in a respectful way and is properly researched.

2)How can you admire Mrtoren's "defense"? What defense? throwing a hissy fit about trolling when he was faced with insurmountable evidence against his school? An admirable defense would quote facts or statistics to make a valid point.

3) the argument was not "Heated" until Mrtoren, the resident Camden martyr, decided to act like a child and call people trolls and banish people from a public web forum.

4) this forum was not created for the purpose of future students getting to know each other. It was to ask questions and receive information. Originally intended for subjects pertaining to "Acceptances, Denials, and Waitlists", this forum took a turn because of a merger that can and may happen, and recent statistics that scare and worry possible students, such as myself.

5) thanks to Mrtoren for creating the thread, really. But that was the last time he had any control of it and he has no right to moderate it as if he is under direction of TLS.

Well, firstly, thank you for considering and taking a neutral approach toward my post. I appreciate it.
1.) You're right, each has his or her own priorities. I'm stressing that we shouldn't claim Newark is superior to Camden (as if it were true) solely based on salary statistics. I for one, am attending law school for different reasons (call me naive, but I value other aspects of Camden more). Also, please don't mock me on Six Flags and Atlantic City. It was my attempt at humor :[ (or at least to add a friendly tone to the post. But come on... they are awesome lol).

2.) I admire that he stood up for Camden while many were putting it down. Moreover, I admire his passion for the school. I think with Students who posses the degree of passion he has, the school can definitely rebound. Yes, he could have done it better. But we're all human, and we all make errors sometimes.

I'm not in a position to ask, but I would appreciate it if the posters can let this one go as a one-time flaw, given that it was based on noble intentions (he was, after all, trying to defend the school).

As for the motives, Mrtoren's the creator (and I was asking to respect the creator's motives), so he should have the final say. Also, in the subgroup "Acceptances, Denials, and Waitlists" we share about our "experiences." To some degree, we can get to know each other. I definitely see where you're coming from and how what I am saying may not match up. However, he did make a FB group for the class of 2015 to unite the class, so I assumed accordingly.

Lastly, let me just say that the employment statistics concerns me as well (I do want to pay off my loans lol). But again, I would appreciate it if we can have a nice conversation (without offending- intentionally or not- those who are dedicated to RU-C).

[Beeg12]

Nice rational explanation of your opinions with some good reasons behind them. People should use this tone in all posts.

also, A/C is fun, and I do not know whether to be happy or sad its too far from Newark for a regular visit.

[oleosmirf]

where did I say anything about it automatically turning into a TTT or that the merger is 100% going to happen? All I said was that given the drop from 84 to 99 and the new employment numbers plus the merger, Camden is no longer as appealing to me as it was 6 months ago.

I am not trying to dissuade anyone as I am STILL SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING the school. I would love to hear from those who are steadfastly defending the school but so far the responses to my concerns have been quite ridiculous. This was one of my top 3 schools before talk of the merger so please if you can if you are going to say that Camden will be perfectly fine then prove it. Give me a legitimate, fact-based reason why Camden will be fine, because unfortunately the evidence is pointing the other way. Have you spoken to any 3Ls or do you have any connections to employers or Rutgers alums?

Also I'm going to assume your six flags and AC comment was an attempt to be funny...

What exactly constitutes a “good” law school?
The USNEWS ranking? How well people find jobs? How high the quality of the education is? Or how hot the girls are in your section? <-- this (lol jk).

To the above posters (Oleosmirf etc)- While I do not think your comments toward the Rowan merger should be considered “trolling”, it is arguably offensive to the students and faculty at Camden. The merger is not final yet, and there is a possibility that it will never be. To say that Camden will automatically turn into a TTT... Well, it's not too nice. Those who are loyal to Camden are working very hard to cease the merger, and bring RU-C to its prosperity again. I hope we can all respect their efforts and stop making implications that the battle is lost (or that Camden is heading toward a permanent TTT position).

Aside from that…
For some, career prospects determine how “great” a law school is- enough for an individual to claim that Newark is superior to Camden. And, you know, I respect that person’s conclusion regarding the matter (others supported the claim with available evidence). However, to me, starting salary is not what makes attending a law school worthwhile (or in that sense, "better"). So to say Newark is superior over Camden can come off as a statement worth strongly arguing against... given that some may value Camden much higher than how others- with different priorities- might view it.

I’m choosing RU-Camden so that I can learn from the qualified faculty at an arguably fun location (CAMDEN IS AWFUL. BUT it is close to Six Flags, Atlantic City, Philly, and everything else). I am attending so that I can meet and argue with guys like Mrtoren (and I must say, as a fellow prospective student who is very loyal to RU-Camden, I admire your defense).

That being said, let’s try to tone down the heated discussion regarding the Rowan-Camden merger. I would appreciate the cooperation. This thread was originally created so that the class of 2015 (whether they decide to attend or not) can get to know each other and share their presence on TLS- not to potentially dissuade (or appear as if you are) prospective students from committing by devaluing the school.
Mrtoren did create this thread, likely for that purpose, so I ask that we all respect his original motives for doing so.

Thank you.

[highlander1]

where did I say anything about it automatically turning into a TTT or that the merger is 100% going to happen? All I said was that given the drop from 84 to 99 and the new employment numbers plus the merger, Camden is no longer as appealing to me as it was 6 months ago.

I am not trying to dissuade anyone as I am STILL SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING the school. I would love to hear from those who are steadfastly defending the school but so far the responses to my concerns have been quite ridiculous. This was one of my top 3 schools before talk of the merger so please if you can if you are going to say that Camden will be perfectly fine then prove it. Give me a legitimate, fact-based reason why Camden will be fine, because unfortunately the evidence is pointing the other way. Have you spoken to any 3Ls or do you have any connections to employers or Rutgers alums?

Also I'm going to assume your six flags and AC comment was an attempt to be funny...

It was not my intention to single you out like that (and I'll edit my previous posts accordingly). Your name was memorable, in the sense that what you said about Newark being better than Camden really caught my attention. The "etc" was me referring to the other posters. I believe someone else made the comment about Camden heading toward a permeation TTT position. Nevertheless, my post came off more of an attack, and for that, I do apologize- I could have approached it better.

As for who I know in Camden... I have spoken to an alumni, and the dean. Also I am acquainted with a 2L who attends Camden. Your concerns thus far have been fact based, and I do not test the validity in them. I was just asking the thread posters to structure their comments in a way that will not offend those who are strongly devoted to RU-C (intentionally or not).

Lastly, I hope you decide to attend ! You can PM me about the limited knowledge I have on Camden (based on my conversations with the people mentioned above).

[oleosmirf]

I think I'm leaning towards other schools. Given my experience with Rutgers as an undergrad, I am skeptical of their ability to do for the individual students what other schools can. They really don't have the resources to individualize their program like other law schools can.

I also did some research and in 2010 only 23 of the 288 graduates landed a job in the private sector with firms of 26 attorneys or more. 62 out of the 288 graduates ended up in law firms and exactly half (31) are in firms of 10 attorneys or less making no more than $60,000. Not to mention these numbers were before any talk of a merger, when RU was ranked 15+ spots higher in the rankings and was above RU Newark.

I am still going to ASW with an open mind, but it seems like spending more money for a higher ranked school (even a slight increase) with better employment statistics and the resources to individualize my education is the best option, at hand...

Source: --LinkRemoved--

[mrtoren]

I think I'm leaning towards other schools. Given my experience with Rutgers as an undergrad, I am skeptical of their ability to do for the individual students what other schools can. They really don't have the resources to individualize their program like other law schools can.

I also did some research and in 2010 only 15 of the 288 graduates landed a job in the private sector with firms of 26 attorneys or more. 62 out of the 288 graduates ended up in law firms and exactly half (31) are in firms of 10 attorneys or less making no more than $60,000. Not to mention these numbers were before any talk of a merger, when RU was ranked 15+ spots higher in the rankings and was above RU Newark.

I am still going to ASW with an open mind, but it seems like spending more money for a higher ranked school (even a slight increase) with better employment statistics and the resources to individualize my education is the best option, at hand...

Source: --LinkRemoved--

Rutgers-Camden is not a school for larger-firm private practice, but few law schools in the second tier really are. If that's what you're shooting for, I think you're making the right decision.

[oleosmirf]

Rutgers-Camden is not a school for larger-firm private practice, but few law schools in the second tier really are. If that's what you're shooting for, I think you're making the right decision.

Well the logical question to ask then is unless you are receiving significant money and/or have family paying for your education, why would you go to this law school then? If you are paying sticker price (and taking out loans to do so) and likely to start at <65,000 (with limited movement for growth) isn't it foolish to attend?

[zuckaz48]

whatsup everyone. since the deadline to make a final decision about where im going is approaching, i was wondering if anyone could give me more information about this merger with rowan. i have read that the applications received by camden this cycle has decreased drastically due to the mentioning of this merger. i am hesitant to attend as well if it is going to be merging.

can someone please give me some updated information. i have seen bits and pieces throughout this thread but i'm hoping someone can sum it up for me if anyone as time.

Thanks fellas. and girls

[Fletcher Reed]

d

[mrtoren]

Also, I would research and get familiar with the latest alarming news about RU-Camden possibly losing its ABA accreditation if the merger goes through which could keep you from sitting for the BAR.

That's not alarming news. You seriously go from one dramatic apocalyptic event to another. God help you after graduation when you enter the real world and are faced with actual problems. To the other poster - the accreditation issue is one I raised without thinking. However, if we walk ourselves through this and ignore Fletcher's panic attacks, we can conclude that provisional accreditation is enough to take the bar in Pennsylvania and probably in New Jersey as well. After all, Drexel's law school did not have full accreditation for years, but graduates were still able to practice. We're getting ahead of ourselves though. More and more lawmakers are getting behind a partnership or consortium approach rather than a full merger. The Governor is steadily losing support and New Jerseyans are not backing down from their fight to keep Rutgers downstate. Even if a merger does go through, there will likely be years of courtroom battles that could prevent us from ever seeing a Rowan law school.

I do NOT recommend going to that thread. It is full of speculation, fear mongering, and unsubstantiated opinions. If you want to read about the merger, go to Google and type "Rutgers Camden" into the search box. Then click the 'news' tab on the left-hand side and start combing through the last couple of weeks' articles. Another informative website is - http://r2rmerge.com/

[Fletcher Reed]

d

[wfudeacons2005]

Here's the latest:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/0 ... rward.html

[mrtoren]

I agree that it's probably best for zuckaz to conduct Internet searches in an attempt to find the facts rather than read other's opinions.
I do not agree that it's “not a big deal” that there's a chance the school will lose its ABA accreditation, hence the reason that the person should do their own research. You have one person (mtoren) who would not care if the school was being taken over by Thomas Cooley Law. Then you have me on the other extreme who is freaking out that the school could disintegrate because the FACTS of what's going on are truly frightening to me.

The bottom line is: nothing will be decided before the seat deposit deadline. Its a 50/50 chance; either of us could be right. You either jump on board or you abandon ship.

[wfudeacons2005]

I am not applying to RU-Camden so I don't exactly have a horse in the race but as an NJ resident who has been following this in the news closely, I would say that the chances of it happening look greater than 50/50. The article I posted above seems to confirm that. For whatever reason, Chris Christie has made this a top priority in the face of a lot of criticism. And, as anyone that has been following NJ politics since Christie was elected can attest, when he wants something he tends to get it (often the hard way). I strongly disagree with the merger and think it is wildly unfair to south Jersey but I think it's undeniable that the wind seems to be blowing in the Rowan direction.

[Fletcher Reed]

d

[highlander1]

I am not applying to RU-Camden so I don't exactly have a horse in the race but as an NJ resident who has been following this in the news closely, I would say that the chances of it happening look greater than 50/50. The article I posted above seems to confirm that. For whatever reason, Chris Christie has made this a top priority in the face of a lot of criticism. And, as anyone that has been following NJ politics since Christie was elected can attest, when he wants something he tends to get it (often the hard way). I strongly disagree with the merger and think it is wildly unfair to south Jersey but I think it's undeniable that the wind seems to be blowing in the Rowan direction.

I agree 100%.

Arguably, Christie is telling the press that the “merger will happen” and that “it will go through” because he wants people to give up, and consequently, instill the idea that there is no fight left. I think Rowan is publishing their “timeline to the merger” to support Christie’s strategy. Honestly, the facts indicate that Rutgers-Camden has a fighting chance to keep its name. I would advise some posters on this thread to clearly view these very facts of the issue themselves, before allowing some political strategy get the best of their judgement. Recently, Christie admitted the RU-C board's influence on the merger is significant. Given that the board is against the merger, well, I wouldn't say the tide is necessarily blowing towards Rowan U.

[wfudeacons2005]

I'd probably argue the opposite. Why would Christie go so far out on a limb and take so much flack if he didn't think this was going to pass? After all the defending he's done and all of the abuse he's taken...it would be a pretty significant hit to his ego and more importantly his political reputation if this doesn't get done. If it stays Rutgers-Camden, he looks like a failure and he managed to piss off a lot of the state in the process. You are right it isn't a done deal and I probably don't know all of the details but I'd put my money on it happening. Again though...here's to hoping that it doesn't.

[mrtoren]

I'd probably argue the opposite. Why would Christie go so far out on a limb and take so much flack if he didn't think this was going to pass? After all the defending he's done and all of the abuse he's taken...it would be a pretty significant hit to his ego and more importantly his political reputation if this doesn't get done. If it stays Rutgers-Camden, he looks like a failure and he managed to piss off a lot of the state in the process. You are right it isn't a done deal and I probably don't know all of the details but I'd put my money on it happening. Again though...here's to hoping that it doesn't.

If Christie admits the merger is on shaky ground, it will compromise his position even further. He needs to show confidence, a sense that the mission is already accomplished. If he fails, he'll correct it with a well-crafted statement later. But for now, he's trying to reduce opposition by convincing others that the fight is already over.

Politics is a mind game.

[crossarmant]

RU-C 1L here, feel free to shoot questions.

As to the merger issue, I do feel that it will eventually go through. As much as the community here has tried to fight it, it just makes too much financial sense for the NJ Education System to merge these schools down here. RU-C's campus is incredibly small (Only like 4 real academic buildings not including the UG library) and the admissions standards for the UG class are significantly lower than for New Brunswick. There isn't too much need for the Rutgers system to have two law schools. I could see how it would make more sense from a governmental standpoint for the merger to pass, it just makes sense from a removed perspective. That said, I am not a New Jersey native and I don't fully appreciate the North Jersey/South Jersey division, but it seems like they don't want to spread Rutgers too thin across the board. I've heard that a number of New Brunswick folks are happy about the merger because they've felt like the main campus has subsidized this tiny one too much.

And yes, it seems that not a lot of people get big firm jobs or firm jobs in general. Most of the people wind up clerking for a state court or doing some other PI/Govt job. It has a fierce network of attorneys throughout NJ and most of the judges in the state are RU alum. Even if the merger happens, the locals all know the deal and should not create any sort of stigma for the NJ natives wishing to practice in the area. However, such as in my case, if you're from out of state it will likely impact your ability back in your home market. Locally though, it does not appear to do too bad for itself; Philly is the 5th largest city in the nation and doesn't really have a lot of competition in the area for it's market. UPenn places a lot of people in NYC/DC so while a few stick locally and work firms, most of the places are staffed with RU, Villanova (Though, now a TTT with a mildly dubious reputation thanks to the ABA scandal), Temple, and Penn State grads which are all peers to Rutgers so it's not like going to a NYC or DC TT where you're being crushed by T14 grads all over the place.

As to drop in rankings and being on the cusp of TTT-dom, I think the fall will definitely happen with the next USNWR rankings. If you look at the data that they use to compile the rankings, GPA/LSAT factor in heavily; with a such a severe drop in applications, limited state funding, etc, the school will be much less selective this year and that'll reflect in the rankings. Not that the drop should change the hiring in the NJ area from the school, but it could for outside of the local market.

TLDR; Merger will likely happen, ranking will drop to TTT, shouldn't impact local hiring. Only really ideal if NJ resident and want a gig w/ a small firm or local govts/PI.

[BostonNJ]

I am also a student and DO NOT agree with the last post! The admissions standards will rise, as stated by the dean. The dean said he is cutting the class, and he has gotten the okay to buy the best students for next year. They are working to get a bounce back in the rankings, and I am confident it will happen!

As for the merger, IF you get a Rutgers degree, you are fine! A Rutgers education is a Rutgers education. The merger will affect the students who get into "ROWAN" not Rutgers. Our degrees will be folded into Rutgers Law (which will be the school in Newark) if the Rutgers location in Camden is lost. We do not automatically become Rowan ALUMNI. IT WILL be a completely different school.

Most Alum will stay loyal to Rutgers Law, if Rowan moves into the Camden building then Rutgers law will only exist in Newark. I plan to give to Rutgers law, and if it ceases to exist in Camden then so be it, my money will go to Newark! This is the majority sentiment.

As for the doom and gloom of the previous post, no disrespect but I dont think he really understands fully whats going on.

[Beeg12]

If the merger goes through how would this affect the administrations plans to be more selective of applicants? A more likely scenario, is IF the merger goes through, all the students who would normally be split between Camden and Newark, would all prefer to go to Newark instead of Rowan. Allowing newark to be more selective and Creating even further of a credential gap than the current cycle.

Yea, your degrees will be folded with newark but that's it. Your tuition and education will stay with Rowan. Newark is a separate institution and the camden students would become rowan students, if only for educational purposes(not on diploma). You will take ypur classes at rowan facilities by professors that are paid and hired by rowan law and your tuition will go be paid to Rowan.And while your loyalty to the Rutgers brand is admirable, where your future alumni money goes is irrelevant to the Camden class of 2015 and the concerns that face them in there decision of whether to matriculate.

Crossarmant had a practical outlook based on the realities of the prospective merger. I hOpe it falls through, but if it doesn't it will negatively affect an already declining program.

If it falls through Rutgers Camden will make a comeback because of mass loyalty and dedication to the program, demonstrated admirably by BostonNJ.