Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

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Robespierre
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby Robespierre » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:01 pm

JenDarby wrote:
Robespierre wrote:Georgetown is an "abominal decision" but Fordham isn't? Can you please explain that statement, JenDarby? Thanks.

This is not the proper forum for such, and you clearly missed the point of my post. I made very clear it was my personal opinion/decision, as most law school decisions are at that level. There are plenty of reasons for someone to prefer Georgetown and plenty of reasons to prefer Fordham. There is also an excellent forum to discuss the relevant merits on an individual basis.

I recognize that a post at the very top of this forum entitled "Read this before posting in this forum," can be very confusing, however it does contain useful information, clearly.


Yes, I know it's your personal opinion/decision. I was wondering what the basis is for it. You went out of your way to put Georgetown down. Please don't do that and then retreat to the position of "this is not the proper forum to discuss it."

The fact is that GULC crushes Fordham in every area that should matter to a 0L:

- Biglaw placement;
- Overall employment percentage;
- Quality of student body;
- Availability of merit money;
- USNWR ranking;
- Specialty rankings;
- Facilities;
- public interest placement and loan forgiveness.

An individual might have reasons for preferring F, but G is the better school overall. Yet someone mentioned that they're going to G and you fired back, without knowing the first thing about them, that you think it's an "abominal decision." That's way off base.

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dingbat
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby dingbat » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:03 pm

JenDarby wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Robespierre wrote:Georgetown is an "abominal decision" but Fordham isn't? Can you please explain that statement, JenDarby? Thanks.

Without wanting to derail, I'd choose Fordham over Georgetown as well and I think JC Findley would too (each for different reasons), although neither would refer to the school as an abomination

Ha well see I didn't and wouldn't refer to Georgetown as an abomination. It would however have been a very poor decision for me personally.

:oops: oops :oops:
Yes, for me it would also have been an abominable decision

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JenDarby
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby JenDarby » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:05 pm

Robespierre: Again my emphasis on personal decisions was entirely missed. I didn't shoot out Gtown out of nowhere. Someone who has a penchant for trash talking Fordham is going there, since for him it was the better decision. This does not make Fordham a poor decision for others, while Gtown could very well be a poor decision for them.

Fordham was a better choice financially, personally, and in that regards professionally for ME. Certain people need to let go of their bitterness towards other schools, or at least take it to the appropriate forum.

ajax
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby ajax » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:30 pm

JenDarby wrote:Robespierre: Again my emphasis on personal decisions was entirely missed. I didn't shoot out Gtown out of nowhere. Someone who has a penchant for trash talking Fordham is going there, since for him it was the better decision. This does not make Fordham a poor decision for others, while Gtown could very well be a poor decision for them.

Fordham was a better choice financially, personally, and in that regards professionally for ME. Certain people need to let go of their bitterness towards other schools, or at least take it to the appropriate forum.


Similarly, New York Law School is a much better school than Fordham for some people out there.

LOL. Georgetown is the better school. Get over it.

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dingbat
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby dingbat » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:06 pm

ajax wrote:Similarly, New York Law School is a much better school than Fordham for some people out there.

Name 1

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JCFindley
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby JCFindley » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:14 pm

So, a buddy of mine married this girl that went to G-Town. Wonderful lady. Now, her friends at the wedding were a different story and were the snottiest elitist snobs I had ever met. On one side of the isle were all B-1B pilots and on the other were these elitists. No one mixed at all until after plenty of liqueur had been applied to both sides then it was great.

No way I would go to a school where I would have to be drunk all the time to like anyone.

:lol: heh

ajax
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby ajax » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:29 pm

dingbat wrote:
ajax wrote:Similarly, New York Law School is a much better school than Fordham for some people out there.

Name 1



HAHAHAHAH. So the argument works when making the case that Fordham is sometimes a better fit than Georgetown, but not when New York Law School is sometimes a better fit than Fordham. Keep drinking the koolaid.

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dingbat
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby dingbat » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:35 pm

JCFindley wrote:So, a buddy of mine married this girl that went to G-Town. Wonderful lady. Now, her friends at the wedding were a different story and were the snottiest elitist snobs I had ever met. On one side of the isle were all B-1B pilots and on the other were these elitists. No one mixed at all until after plenty of liqueur had been applied to both sides then it was great.

No way I would go to a school where I would have to be drunk all the time to like anyone.

:lol: heh

But think of the morning after

DTDT
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby DTDT » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:56 pm

This thread needs a mod, or a "No Feed the Trolls" sign.

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Happy Endings
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby Happy Endings » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:56 pm

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, which will be based on a host of variables (ie personal experiences and particular emotional state etc) that lead to their own interpretation of facts. The argument can be made for any program and based on the analysis of supporting arguments, one opinion may be better supported. The key word though is analysis. I would hope decisions to apply or chose a program would not be based solely on TLS, ranking, reputation or location without proper research and vetting. There is going to be a great mixture of both unsubstantiated information from subjective posters and also 1st hand knowledge-based information and/or facts out there from 1-3L and admissions staff, law firms, news reports, financial statements (hey dingbat) etc. All in all, you have to be satisfied with the final decision (accept, defer, withdraw, retry) because it charts the course on the outcomes and prospects ahead. (Just my 2 cents)


BTW, Big congrats to AJ on what sounds like an acceptance off the waitlist! Good luck with your decision!

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dingbat
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby dingbat » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:05 pm

DTDT wrote:This thread needs a mod, or a "No Feed the Trolls" sign.

But I like feeding dumb animals

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JCFindley
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby JCFindley » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:10 pm

Happy Endings wrote:Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, which will be based on a host of variables (ie personal experiences and particular emotional state etc) that lead to their own interpretation of facts. The argument can be made for any program and based on the analysis of supporting arguments, one opinion may be better supported. The key word though is analysis. I would hope decisions to apply or chose a program would not be based solely on TLS, ranking, reputation or location without proper research and vetting. There is going to be a great mixture of both unsubstantiated information from subjective posters and also 1st hand knowledge-based information and/or facts out there from 1-3L and admissions staff, law firms, news reports, financial statements (hey dingbat) etc. All in all, you have to be satisfied with the final decision (accept, defer, withdraw, retry) because it charts the course on the outcomes and prospects ahead. (Just my 2 cents)


BTW, Big congrats to AJ on what sounds like an acceptance off the waitlist! Good luck with your decision!


This!

And yes, I can envision times NYLS would be a better fit than Fordham.

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Robespierre
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby Robespierre » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:29 pm

JCFindley wrote:
Happy Endings wrote:Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, which will be based on a host of variables (ie personal experiences and particular emotional state etc) that lead to their own interpretation of facts. The argument can be made for any program and based on the analysis of supporting arguments, one opinion may be better supported. The key word though is analysis. I would hope decisions to apply or chose a program would not be based solely on TLS, ranking, reputation or location without proper research and vetting. There is going to be a great mixture of both unsubstantiated information from subjective posters and also 1st hand knowledge-based information and/or facts out there from 1-3L and admissions staff, law firms, news reports, financial statements (hey dingbat) etc. All in all, you have to be satisfied with the final decision (accept, defer, withdraw, retry) because it charts the course on the outcomes and prospects ahead. (Just my 2 cents)


BTW, Big congrats to AJ on what sounds like an acceptance off the waitlist! Good luck with your decision!


This!

And yes, I can envision times NYLS would be a better fit than Fordham.


Right. Everyone should go to the school that fits their individual circumstances after independent research. Indubitably.

So what does this mean for aj922, who came into the thread looking for help? All we know about his circumstances is that he'd have to take on almost 100K debt for Fordham and doesn't care about Biglaw. Since heavy nondischargeable debt is very dangerous in this economy, and since placing grads in Biglaw is one of Fordham's strengths, it doesn't seem at first glance like F is a match for his situation.

Let's try to help him rather than bashing other schools or calling each other names like "troll."

Also, aj922, you might want to post in the Choosing A Law School forum as well.

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Gemini
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby Gemini » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:31 pm

Robespierre wrote:
Right. Everyone should go to the school that fits their individual circumstances after independent research. Indubitably.

So what does this mean for aj922, who came into the thread looking for help? All we know about his circumstances is that he'd have to take on almost 100K debt for Fordham and doesn't care about Biglaw. Since heavy nondischargeable debt is very dangerous in this economy, and since placing grads in Biglaw is one of Fordham's strengths, it doesn't seem at first glance like F is a match for his situation.

Let's try to help him rather than bashing other schools or calling each other names like "troll."

Also, aj922, you might want to post in the Choosing A Law School forum as well.


You are clearly way too mature for this thread. :lol: :wink:

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JCFindley
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby JCFindley » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:41 pm

Gemini wrote:
You are clearly way too mature for this thread. :lol: :wink:

aj922
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby aj922 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:45 pm

Lol I am very interested in big law

but I do have experience working in NYC firms and in this city there are many firms that don't fall under "big law" but still pay really well

I would definitely be interested working at a firm of that size as well because I know the atmosphere and the type of grads there

And fordham places pretty well in ny clerkships which is something I also find interesting

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Happy Endings
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby Happy Endings » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:57 pm

Maximilien is correct. The purpose of TLS (at least one of the purposes) is to help one another. Given that what we know is very little of his circumstances and the many variables that factor in his decision, I would absolutely recommend AJ provide a little more information; particularly on the "Choose a Law School" forum. Nevertheless, congrats are in order for the acceptance and the difficult (and enviable) decision ahead.

As always, for those still waiting at this late stage in the cycle...stay positive:)

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Gemini
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby Gemini » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:58 pm

aj922 wrote:but I do have experience working in NYC firms and in this city there are many firms that don't fall under "big law" but still pay really well



What's the point of doing the same amount of work for less money?

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Robespierre
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby Robespierre » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:11 pm

Well OK aj, I was going by your prior post where you said:

aj922 wrote:Hey, looking for some honest advice

Just heard back from Fordham

Is it worth it at sticker? Don't care about big law, just a law firm job


In any event, my gut reaction is that if you're looking for a law firm job in the tier below Biglaw, you'd be better off with a big scholly at Brooklyn or Dozo than sticker at Fordham. Fordham placed 5% of its 2011 grads in firms of 25-100 lawyers. Brooklyn was 4%. Hardly any difference. So any significant scholarship at BLS would make it the right choice.

http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/home.aspx

aj922
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby aj922 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:30 pm

That 4 percent is because there are other opportunities...you notice this when you work in NYC for a few years

The structure and hierarchy of firms here is very different from most cities because the market is so big...and I dont think non new Yorkers grasp that

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Gemini
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby Gemini » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:31 pm

Just FYI, what you think you want to do now may COMPLETELY change over three years of law school.

I used to think I wanted to do transactional work but turns out that it's litigation work that excites me.

I was sure I didn't want to do law firm stuff, but guess what, I ended up being really interested in joining a firm.

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Robespierre
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby Robespierre » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:41 pm

aj922 wrote:That 4 percent is because there are other opportunities...you notice this when you work in NYC for a few years

The structure and hierarchy of firms here is very different from most cities because the market is so big...and I dont think non new Yorkers grasp that


If you care, I actually AM a New Yorker and HAVE worked in NYC for a few years. But I don't follow what you're saying. I said my piece. Best of luck!

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Fujin11
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby Fujin11 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:19 pm

JCFindley wrote:So, a buddy of mine married this girl that went to G-Town. Wonderful lady. Now, her friends at the wedding were a different story and were the snottiest elitist snobs I had ever met. On one side of the isle were all B-1B pilots and on the other were these elitists. No one mixed at all until after plenty of liqueur had been applied to both sides then it was great.

No way I would go to a school where I would have to be drunk all the time to like anyone.

:lol: heh



Word on the street is a lot of people at Georgetown wish they were at an ivy (at least in terms of undergrad) so they pretend they're better than anyone who isn't an ivy leaguer to make themselves feel better (same lack of self esteem principle behind people who got to Cornell undergrad constantly reminding people it's an Ivy because they think they get no respect)

aj922
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby aj922 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:35 pm

I respect your opinion and you guys have been insightful

Georgetown, Fordham, all excellent schools

Best of luck as the start of classes draws closer...

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dingbat
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Re: Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle)

Postby dingbat » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:12 am

Robespierre wrote:Well OK aj, I was going by your prior post where you said:

aj922 wrote:Hey, looking for some honest advice

Just heard back from Fordham

Is it worth it at sticker? Don't care about big law, just a law firm job


In any event, my gut reaction is that if you're looking for a law firm job in the tier below Biglaw, you'd be better off with a big scholly at Brooklyn or Dozo than sticker at Fordham. Fordham placed 5% of its 2011 grads in firms of 25-100 lawyers. Brooklyn was 4%. Hardly any difference. So any significant scholarship at BLS would make it the right choice.

http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/home.aspx

That may be the most oversimplistic false logic I've seen in a while.
Presumably, many people who end up in midlaw would have preferred biglaw, but missed the boat.
Out of what's left after those that self-select out of midlaw, proportionately significantly more get chosen from Fordham than from Brooklyn

Math time:
let's assume a conservative 25% out of Fordham get biglaw or a clerkship, and an aggressive 15% of Brooklyn do likewise.

5% of Fordham's remainder (75%) is roughly 6.7% of the remainder
4% of Brooklyn's remainder (85%) is roughly 4.7% of the remainder
Meaning that Fordham's midlaw placement is roughly 1.4 times as good as Brooklyn's
(and that doesn't even take into account the effect of class rank - a somewhat lower ranked Fordham grad is as competitive as a higher ranked Brooklyn grad)

On a different note: 12




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