Fordham c/o 2015/16 (2011-2012 Cycle) Forum

[manofjustice]

With those numbers in theory you will be in the top percentage of graduates if you can continue with that academic prowess.... Fordham is well worth sticker for the top grads..... Of course theory and reality are not always related but 4.0s are hard to come by period and has to say something about future potential....

It would depend on what other options he has. You are right, a top LSAT indicates the POTENTIAL to be a top performer, but a top LSAT score is a top LSAT score. In theory, it should have yielded other options with a softer downside--i.e. less expensive schools of equal or greater prestige.

I think Fordham is a pure NYC play. If it's NYC big law or nothing, then Fordham MAY have an advantage.

Also, don't forget a couple of things about the 160+ job: a common case is that it only lasts 7 years. Another common case is that you want out after year 1 (or 2 or 3). Still even more common, perhaps, is that you want to buy a new car or a nice apartment in year 1. All three cases are ameliorated by having less debt.

[B986]

Just got in off the wait-list today! No $$$ though.

Highest LSAT: 165
GPA: 3.0
LSDAS GPA: 2.9

This seriously makes me hate my life.

This is a rude thing to say..? It's somewhat obnoxious to be so vocal and bitter that someone with lower stats is in the same position you are in. Let them be excited about their opportunity without raining on their parade and making this about you by complaining about your own situation. You have no clue how this person stacks up to you or any other candidate on the whole. They could have exceptional and/or highly unique and compelling softs. With your stats I would be utterly shocked if you did not receive substantial scholarship offers from other excellent schools (peer schools to Fordham or "better"). If you only want to go to Fordham, you may just have to accept the fact that they are notoriously lacking in the merit aid department. That's on you. Otherwise, I'd suggest going to another school that makes you feel better about your life by giving you a sweeter offer.

[tibbs1179]

Hi all! Got the news that I was accepted off the waitlist on Tuesday!! Barring any other compelling offers, I'll be seeing you guys this fall! BTW, I have lived in NYC (Brooklyn-Fort Greene/Clinton Hill) for seven years, so if any newcomers to the city need any advice about anything city-related, feel free to hit me up.

Meanwhile, are there any admitted student events that I have already missed? Anything interesting in them?

[JCFindley]

Hi all! Got the news that I was accepted off the waitlist on Tuesday!! Barring any other compelling offers, I'll be seeing you guys this fall! BTW, I have lived in NYC (Brooklyn-Fort Greene/Clinton Hill) for seven years, so if any newcomers to the city need any advice about anything city-related, feel free to hit me up.

Meanwhile, are there any admitted student events that I have already missed? Anything interesting in them?

CONGRATS Tibbs....!!!!

With those numbers in theory you will be in the top percentage of graduates if you can continue with that academic prowess.... Fordham is well worth sticker for the top grads..... Of course theory and reality are not always related but 4.0s are hard to come by period and has to say something about future potential....

It would depend on what other options he has. You are right, a top LSAT indicates the POTENTIAL to be a top performer, but a top LSAT score is a top LSAT score. In theory, it should have yielded other options with a softer downside--i.e. less expensive schools of equal or greater prestige.

I think Fordham is a pure NYC play. If it's NYC big law or nothing, then Fordham MAY have an advantage.

Also, don't forget a couple of things about the 160+ job: a common case is that it only lasts 7 years. Another common case is that you want out after year 1 (or 2 or 3). Still even more common, perhaps, is that you want to buy a new car or a nice apartment in year 1. All three cases are ameliorated by having less debt.

Yupp, Really I was more looking at the 4.0 since those are tough to come by even in underwater basket weaving.... LSAT reflects study time and knowing where and how to study as much as it shows pure LS potential IMO.....

Just got in off the wait-list today! No $$$ though.

Highest LSAT: 165
GPA: 3.0
LSDAS GPA: 2.9

This seriously makes me hate my life.

This is a rude thing to say..? It's somewhat obnoxious to be so vocal and bitter that someone with lower stats is in the same position you are in. Let them be excited about their opportunity without raining on their parade and making this about you by complaining about your own situation. You have no clue how this person stacks up to you or any other candidate on the whole. They could have exceptional and/or highly unique and compelling softs. With your stats I would be utterly shocked if you did not receive substantial scholarship offers from other excellent schools (peer schools to Fordham or "better"). If you only want to go to Fordham, you may just have to accept the fact that they are notoriously lacking in the merit aid department. That's on you. Otherwise, I'd suggest going to another school that makes you feel better about your life by giving you a sweeter offer.

Another yupp.... For all we know this candidate is a NASA Astronaut that is only wanting to go to LS now that the shuttle program is no more..... A bit extreme maybe but the point being numbers do not tell the whole story and even if they did be happy for the guy/gal......

[cogitoergosum]

Just got in off the wait-list today! No $$$ though.

Highest LSAT: 165
GPA: 3.0
LSDAS GPA: 2.9

This seriously makes me hate my life.

This is a rude thing to say..? It's somewhat obnoxious to be so vocal and bitter that someone with lower stats is in the same position you are in. Let them be excited about their opportunity without raining on their parade and making this about you by complaining about your own situation. You have no clue how this person stacks up to you or any other candidate on the whole. They could have exceptional and/or highly unique and compelling softs. With your stats I would be utterly shocked if you did not receive substantial scholarship offers from other excellent schools (peer schools to Fordham or "better"). If you only want to go to Fordham, you may just have to accept the fact that they are notoriously lacking in the merit aid department. That's on you. Otherwise, I'd suggest going to another school that makes you feel better about your life by giving you a sweeter offer.

Yeah, I can see how that came off as pretty douchey. I really didn't mean that as a comment against boredtodeath. I think it is awesome that s/he got a waitlist acceptance that s/he is so happy with, and honestly I hope it works out like that for everyone who wants it.

My comment was really about my disappointment with my own cycle, and not particularly about anyone else's success. Generally we work harder on LSAT/GPA in hopes that significant increases in one or both will yield corresponding increases in opportunity. I'm disappointed, but not that boredtodeath got in, only that I haven't done better myself.

We all cool?

[B986]

Just got in off the wait-list today! No $$$ though.

Highest LSAT: 165
GPA: 3.0
LSDAS GPA: 2.9

This seriously makes me hate my life.

This is a rude thing to say..? It's somewhat obnoxious to be so vocal and bitter that someone with lower stats is in the same position you are in. Let them be excited about their opportunity without raining on their parade and making this about you by complaining about your own situation. You have no clue how this person stacks up to you or any other candidate on the whole. They could have exceptional and/or highly unique and compelling softs. With your stats I would be utterly shocked if you did not receive substantial scholarship offers from other excellent schools (peer schools to Fordham or "better"). If you only want to go to Fordham, you may just have to accept the fact that they are notoriously lacking in the merit aid department. That's on you. Otherwise, I'd suggest going to another school that makes you feel better about your life by giving you a sweeter offer.

Yeah, I can see how that came off as pretty douchey. I really didn't mean that as a comment against boredtodeath. I think it is awesome that s/he got a waitlist acceptance that s/he is so happy with, and honestly I hope it works out like that for everyone who wants it.

My comment was really about my disappointment with my own cycle, and not particularly about anyone else's success. Generally we work harder on LSAT/GPA in hopes that significant increases in one or both will yield corresponding increases in opportunity. I'm disappointed, but not that boredtodeath got in, only that I haven't done better myself.

We all cool?

Cool with me. I certainly cannot imagine having your stats and not being at least mostly pleased with my cycle. I just thought that you saying you "hate your life" because you learned someone with lesser stats achieved the same end that you did was a bit extreme, entitled, and came off as a put down to that person. Anyway, good luck in the negotiation process. I would think that you should have some solid leverage.

[JCFindley]

Just got in off the wait-list today! No $$$ though.

Highest LSAT: 165
GPA: 3.0
LSDAS GPA: 2.9

This seriously makes me hate my life.

This is a rude thing to say..? It's somewhat obnoxious to be so vocal and bitter that someone with lower stats is in the same position you are in. Let them be excited about their opportunity without raining on their parade and making this about you by complaining about your own situation. You have no clue how this person stacks up to you or any other candidate on the whole. They could have exceptional and/or highly unique and compelling softs. With your stats I would be utterly shocked if you did not receive substantial scholarship offers from other excellent schools (peer schools to Fordham or "better"). If you only want to go to Fordham, you may just have to accept the fact that they are notoriously lacking in the merit aid department. That's on you. Otherwise, I'd suggest going to another school that makes you feel better about your life by giving you a sweeter offer.

Yeah, I can see how that came off as pretty douchey. I really didn't mean that as a comment against boredtodeath. I think it is awesome that s/he got a waitlist acceptance that s/he is so happy with, and honestly I hope it works out like that for everyone who wants it.

My comment was really about my disappointment with my own cycle, and not particularly about anyone else's success. Generally we work harder on LSAT/GPA in hopes that significant increases in one or both will yield corresponding increases in opportunity. I'm disappointed, but not that boredtodeath got in, only that I haven't done better myself.

We all cool?

To be honest I am cool with everyone.... Almost nothing said online truly bothers me and very little IRL does either..... I tend to be the Switzerland of online forums.... I won't judge, just give me all your gold, which in the case of a forum is information....

Your explanation works for me though and good luck getting a little $$$

[JenDarby]

I'm going to make this easy for you guys - UG/LSAT stats have next to nothing to do with your LS gpa. Most my friends who came in with 4.0s are closer to median than anything else. The person I know who came in with the highest LSAT is below median. Prepare for your exams to be thrown down a flight of stairs and graded by which go the furthest. Thank god lucks on my side.

That said, you're all going to have so much fun. Such as the fun I am having working on this writing competition for going on 24 hours straight right now. Enjoy.

[manofjustice]

I'm going to make this easy for you guys - UG/LSAT stats have next to nothing to do with your LS gpa. Most my friends who came in with 4.0s are closer to median than anything else. The person I know who came in with the highest LSAT is below median. Prepare for your exams to be thrown down a flight of stairs and graded by which go the furthest. Thank god lucks on my side.

That said, you're all going to have so much fun. Such as the fun I am having working on this writing competition for going on 24 hours straight right now. Enjoy.

I'm confused. Isn't LSAT + UGPA the highest correlated numerical indices of 1LGPA? Perhaps your friends are exceptions? Perhaps they don't fully substantiate the proposition that UG + LSAT has "nothing" to do with 1LGPA?

But I am curious, in your experience, length of your exam matters? What about writing style and overall organization? What about how well written it is? (I really don't know...)

Also, if you don't mind me asking, how have you done 1L? (If you do mind me asking, I apologize in advance.)

[ajax]

Just got in off the wait-list today! No $$$ though.

Highest LSAT: 165
GPA: 3.0
LSDAS GPA: 2.9

This seriously makes me hate my life.

This is a rude thing to say..? It's somewhat obnoxious to be so vocal and bitter that someone with lower stats is in the same position you are in. Let them be excited about their opportunity without raining on their parade and making this about you by complaining about your own situation. You have no clue how this person stacks up to you or any other candidate on the whole. They could have exceptional and/or highly unique and compelling softs. With your stats I would be utterly shocked if you did not receive substantial scholarship offers from other excellent schools (peer schools to Fordham or "better"). If you only want to go to Fordham, you may just have to accept the fact that they are notoriously lacking in the merit aid department. That's on you. Otherwise, I'd suggest going to another school that makes you feel better about your life by giving you a sweeter offer.

Yeah, I can see how that came off as pretty douchey. I really didn't mean that as a comment against boredtodeath. I think it is awesome that s/he got a waitlist acceptance that s/he is so happy with, and honestly I hope it works out like that for everyone who wants it.

My comment was really about my disappointment with my own cycle, and not particularly about anyone else's success. Generally we work harder on LSAT/GPA in hopes that significant increases in one or both will yield corresponding increases in opportunity. I'm disappointed, but not that boredtodeath got in, only that I haven't done better myself.

We all cool?

Except now you are implying that you worked harder than boredtodeath, just because your LSAT score was higher. That also comes across douchey fyi. Boredtodeath very well could have worked harder than you.

[cogitoergosum]

This is a rude thing to say..? It's somewhat obnoxious to be so vocal and bitter that someone with lower stats is in the same position you are in. Let them be excited about their opportunity without raining on their parade and making this about you by complaining about your own situation. You have no clue how this person stacks up to you or any other candidate on the whole. They could have exceptional and/or highly unique and compelling softs. With your stats I would be utterly shocked if you did not receive substantial scholarship offers from other excellent schools (peer schools to Fordham or "better"). If you only want to go to Fordham, you may just have to accept the fact that they are notoriously lacking in the merit aid department. That's on you. Otherwise, I'd suggest going to another school that makes you feel better about your life by giving you a sweeter offer.

Yeah, I can see how that came off as pretty douchey. I really didn't mean that as a comment against boredtodeath. I think it is awesome that s/he got a waitlist acceptance that s/he is so happy with, and honestly I hope it works out like that for everyone who wants it.

My comment was really about my disappointment with my own cycle, and not particularly about anyone else's success. Generally we work harder on LSAT/GPA in hopes that significant increases in one or both will yield corresponding increases in opportunity. I'm disappointed, but not that boredtodeath got in, only that I haven't done better myself.

We all cool?

Except now you are implying that you worked harder than boredtodeath, just because your LSAT score was higher. That also comes across douchey fyi. Boredtodeath very well could have worked harder than you.

Uhh, seriously? Look back at what i said and explain how exactly i implied that. I think you're going to have to work pretty hard..

[Wily]

Well, I completely struck out at getting financial aid. My parents make too much, even though they are not going to contribute much to my education. Looking at Fordham at sticker is like staring down the barrel of a revolver that has a few loaded bullets in it, a la Russian roulette style.

[manofjustice]

Well, I completely struck out at getting financial aid. My parents make too much, even though they are not going to contribute much to my education. Looking at Fordham at sticker is like staring down the barrel of a revolver that has a few loaded bullets in it, a la Russian roulette style.

Exactly.

Don't you have any other revolvers you could try out?

[loisaida]

Bringing some good cheer to this thread:

Congrats to this past weeks' admits off the wait list ! Let's hope that the week isn't done yet for decisions and some of us other wait list folks (or anyone if they're still waiting for an initial decision) get some good news by tomorrow!

[JenDarby]

Well, I completely struck out at getting financial aid. My parents make too much, even though they are not going to contribute much to my education. Looking at Fordham at sticker is like staring down the barrel of a revolver that has a few loaded bullets in it, a la Russian roulette style.

Yea, my parents don't make much but their home ownership screwed me even though they're not helping me at at all. People definitely shouldn't bank on need based aid.

Re: grades, when 50% of the class has below a 3.2 on a forced curve, shit happens. In one of my classes the curve was so tight that missing one sentence could knock you down a grade. Some professors give A+ but that also means they have to give more Bs and B-s to balance it out. UG and LSAT stats aren't the best predictor. I'm doing well, but I don't think it has anything to do with my LSAT and UGPA.

[JCFindley]

Well, I completely struck out at getting financial aid. My parents make too much, even though they are not going to contribute much to my education. Looking at Fordham at sticker is like staring down the barrel of a revolver that has a few loaded bullets in it, a la Russian roulette style.

Yea, my parents don't make much but their home ownership screwed me even though they're not helping me at at all. People definitely shouldn't bank on need based aid.

Re: grades, when 50% of the class has below a 3.2 on a forced curve, shit happens. In one of my classes the curve was so tight that missing one sentence could knock you down a grade. Some professors give A+ but that also means they have to give more Bs and B-s to balance it out. UG and LSAT stats aren't the best predictor. I'm doing well, but I don't think it has anything to do with my LSAT and UGPA.

Mostly the LSAT and UGPA are used because every single applicant to LS will have both. If you are a 22 year old KJD it is probably the best indicator law schools have on your potential success at LS unless your name is Mark Zuckenburg or something along those lines..... Now, the further an applicant is out of UG there are a LOT of really good indicators besides those numbers that can be used. The only problem schools have with that is that they are not always quantifiable and subjective indicators are not reported to US News and those will not help the school maintain its standing on the "ranking." While numbers do matter to Fordham they also look at the bigger picture as well. Rutgers Newark is a great example of this as you can check a box to have your admissions packet judged on your accomplishments instead of your numbers. Their rating likely reflects this but they generally outperform their ranking when it comes to job placement especially in NJ. I believe Fordham far out performs its ranking as well when it comes to well paying jobs. Seriously, compare it to most schools ranked above it outside the T-14 and maybe a couple in between.....

FWIW I found out in late December that the GI Bill had changed and counted active duty National Guard time and would pay for me to go to LS. That gave me six weeks or so to decide if it could work for me and prep for the LSAT and of that, four of those weeks either my father in law or mother in law was in the hospital. Needless to say I do not consider my LSAT score to be reflective of how well I could do on the test nor how I will perform in LS.... I have never done anything in my adult life where I wasn't in the top 10% and while I am not counting on being there in LS it is as good or better indicator of potential as my UG GPA and LSAT. I am just ecstatic that Fordham at least sees some potential in that and me regardless of the numbers.....

Just my two cents of course.....

JC

[MrAnon]

Just got in off the wait-list today! No $$$ though.

Highest LSAT: 165
GPA: 3.0
LSDAS GPA: 2.9

This seriously makes me hate my life.

This is a rude thing to say..? It's somewhat obnoxious to be so vocal and bitter that someone with lower stats is in the same position you are in. Let them be excited about their opportunity without raining on their parade and making this about you by complaining about your own situation. You have no clue how this person stacks up to you or any other candidate on the whole. They could have exceptional and/or highly unique and compelling softs. With your stats I would be utterly shocked if you did not receive substantial scholarship offers from other excellent schools (peer schools to Fordham or "better"). If you only want to go to Fordham, you may just have to accept the fact that they are notoriously lacking in the merit aid department. That's on you. Otherwise, I'd suggest going to another school that makes you feel better about your life by giving you a sweeter offer.

Yeah, I can see how that came off as pretty douchey. I really didn't mean that as a comment against boredtodeath. I think it is awesome that s/he got a waitlist acceptance that s/he is so happy with, and honestly I hope it works out like that for everyone who wants it.

My comment was really about my disappointment with my own cycle, and not particularly about anyone else's success. Generally we work harder on LSAT/GPA in hopes that significant increases in one or both will yield corresponding increases in opportunity. I'm disappointed, but not that boredtodeath got in, only that I haven't done better myself.

We all cool?

The part no one is mentioning that really should be discussed is that Fordham is taking a lot of sub 3.0s this year. I have seen other posters with similar numbers. There is a guy over on jdu who got in with a 2.7.

At some point you really have to question the wisdom of the whole thing. I mean, If you got a 2.2 or a 1.7 and a law school accepted you, is it really a bright idea to go? The law school is the only person who benefits.

[rkh235]

still waiting to hear back. congrats to those of you got in of waitlist, cross your fingers and hope for the best for those of us who are still waiting!

[JCFindley]

still waiting to hear back. congrats to those of you got in of waitlist, cross your fingers and hope for the best for those of us who are still waiting!

Best of luck rk.....

[dingbat]

At some point you really have to question the wisdom of the whole thing. I mean, If you got a 2.2 or a 1.7 and a law school accepted you, is it really a bright idea to go? The law school is the only person who benefits.

This is a very broad statement
What if there were extenuating circumstances? What if you had a life-changing experience?
While there is some correlation, a person 's LSGPAbis not always a true reflection of their abilities or potential

[manofjustice]

The part no one is mentioning that really should be discussed is that Fordham is taking a lot of sub 3.0s this year. I have seen other posters with similar numbers. There is a guy over on jdu who got in with a 2.7.

At some point you really have to question the wisdom of the whole thing. I mean, If you got a 2.2 or a 1.7 and a law school accepted you, is it really a bright idea to go? The law school is the only person who benefits.

[

This is part right and part wrong.

Fordham probably is accepting a lot of splitters (and giving them no $$ hoping they're desperate, but this cycle, they're not).

But almost no one gets a sub 3.0 GPA in liberal arts because they were too dumb. Their LSAT can either confirm or deny. Usually, they get a sub 2.0 because they were lazy. Being lazy is eminently correctable, especially in a professional school later in life.

[ned]

At some point you really have to question the wisdom of the whole thing. I mean, If you got a 2.2 or a 1.7 and a law school accepted you, is it really a bright idea to go? The law school is the only person who benefits.

This is a very broad statement
What if there were extenuating circumstances? What if you had a life-changing experience?
While there is some correlation, a person 's LSGPAbis not always a true reflection of their abilities or potential

Aslo, a grading curve works both ways. So many people fear it, but I think it could actually make life easier. If the admissions standards drop and academic performance drops across the board, nobody (besides faculty) would ever know because there is always a curved distribution of grades. And employers don't care that this year 80% correct is a b+ instead of a b-. So from my perspective, let in all the substandard gpa's! It only makes it easier for me to score closer to the top.

[MrAnon]

The part no one is mentioning that really should be discussed is that Fordham is taking a lot of sub 3.0s this year. I have seen other posters with similar numbers. There is a guy over on jdu who got in with a 2.7.

At some point you really have to question the wisdom of the whole thing. I mean, If you got a 2.2 or a 1.7 and a law school accepted you, is it really a bright idea to go? The law school is the only person who benefits.

[

This is part right and part wrong.

Fordham probably is accepting a lot of splitters (and giving them no $$ hoping they're desperate, but this cycle, they're not).

But almost no one gets a sub 3.0 GPA in liberal arts because they were too dumb. Their LSAT can either confirm or deny. Usually, they get a sub 2.0 because they were lazy. Being lazy is eminently correctable, especially in a professional school later in life.

Of course it is possible to correct it, but if the person is coming from any undergraduate school outside of the most selective then the chances are they are not so bright that with all the determination in the world and a wave of the magic wand that they can just turn the ship on a dime. In college you are learning how and gaining practice at how to read and write at a higher level. If you slept through that how are you going to keep up with a whole batch of folks who were killing it all the way through. If on the other hand, you are so bright that college was just too much of a boring chore for you, then I doubt law school is going to spark that kind of imagination you have to get yourself in gear.

[MrAnon]

At some point you really have to question the wisdom of the whole thing. I mean, If you got a 2.2 or a 1.7 and a law school accepted you, is it really a bright idea to go? The law school is the only person who benefits.

This is a very broad statement
What if there were extenuating circumstances? What if you had a life-changing experience?
While there is some correlation, a person 's LSGPAbis not always a true reflection of their abilities or potential

Aslo, a grading curve works both ways. So many people fear it, but I think it could actually make life easier. If the admissions standards drop and academic performance drops across the board, nobody (besides faculty) would ever know because there is always a curved distribution of grades. And employers don't care that this year 80% correct is a b+ instead of a b-. So from my perspective, let in all the substandard gpa's! It only makes it easier for me to score closer to the top.

This is so not true about employers. Employers are looking for any rationale can find to cut back on hiring. If they sense that the average student going to law school is not as bright as years past, they'll cite that as a reason for hiring less and making current and other new hires work more for their buck. Since we're not talking about the very top schools here there is even more reason for them to be wary.

Why not just have a smaller class size?

[ned]

At some point you really have to question the wisdom of the whole thing. I mean, If you got a 2.2 or a 1.7 and a law school accepted you, is it really a bright idea to go? The law school is the only person who benefits.

This is a very broad statement
What if there were extenuating circumstances? What if you had a life-changing experience?
While there is some correlation, a person 's LSGPAbis not always a true reflection of their abilities or potential

Aslo, a grading curve works both ways. So many people fear it, but I think it could actually make life easier. If the admissions standards drop and academic performance drops across the board, nobody (besides faculty) would ever know because there is always a curved distribution of grades. And employers don't care that this year 80% correct is a b+ instead of a b-. So from my perspective, let in all the substandard gpa's! It only makes it easier for me to score closer to the top.

This is so not true about employers. Employers are looking for any rationale can find to cut back on hiring. If they sense that the average student going to law school is not as bright as years past, they'll cite that as a reason for hiring less and making current and other new hires work more for their buck. Since we're not talking about the very top schools here there is even more reason for them to be wary.

Why not just have a smaller class size?

Maybe I don't have the inside view that you have regarding how things work, but I don't think law firms require a "rationale" to cut back, other than the bottom line. If I'm near the top of my class, they aren't gonna say, "wait, but didn't the median gpa drop like 2 tenths the year your applied?" They don't cut back based on entering class medians dropping. They don't poke around 1L final exam questions and answers, searching for an "excuse" not to hire an applicant. They cut back based on how much or how little work/revenue they get from their clients.

As for shrinking the class size, the schools will do that when it is in their interest to do it. So far, they seem to think medians aren't dropping enough to warrant something as drastic as shrinking their schools and firing faculty and staff (and increasing their debt burden). Such moves are highly corrosive to the academic life of a school and should only be taken if necessary. These are sizable institutions and they maneuver like cruise ships, not speed boats. They make long-term plans and deliberate decisions, like putting a quarter billion dollars into a new building. Slashing the student body to maintain medians is not in the cards, and most-likely wouldn't even be helpful or beneficial.