2012 Lewis & Clark People

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checkster
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby checkster » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:06 pm

benburns214 wrote:
kmokeefe wrote:Got my acceptance package last week for the part-time program. I decided to email them asking for scholarship reconsideration. As much as I'd love to attend, I just can't afford to go otherwise.


It's called loans. Do you think anyone can "afford" to go to Med or Law school? No... you take out loans. Scholarships are nice, but dont make them your deciding factor. Just a word of advice from someone who is probably in no position to be giving advice.


^^ No.

Scholarships are a huge factor. Loans are probably necessary, but don't just think everything will work out and 150k of debt is no big deal. Money matters.

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KibblesnBitts
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby KibblesnBitts » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:17 pm

checkster wrote:
benburns214 wrote:
kmokeefe wrote:Got my acceptance package last week for the part-time program. I decided to email them asking for scholarship reconsideration. As much as I'd love to attend, I just can't afford to go otherwise.


It's called loans. Do you think anyone can "afford" to go to Med or Law school? No... you take out loans. Scholarships are nice, but dont make them your deciding factor. Just a word of advice from someone who is probably in no position to be giving advice.


^^ No.

Scholarships are a huge factor. Loans are probably necessary, but don't just think everything will work out and 150k of debt is no big deal. Money matters.


+1000000

benburns214
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby benburns214 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:21 pm

checkster wrote:
benburns214 wrote:
kmokeefe wrote:Got my acceptance package last week for the part-time program. I decided to email them asking for scholarship reconsideration. As much as I'd love to attend, I just can't afford to go otherwise.


It's called loans. Do you think anyone can "afford" to go to Med or Law school? No... you take out loans. Scholarships are nice, but dont make them your deciding factor. Just a word of advice from someone who is probably in no position to be giving advice.


^^ No.

Scholarships are a huge factor. Loans are probably necessary, but don't just think everything will work out and 150k of debt is no big deal. Money matters.


Disagree. In Law and Med school, you take out MASSIVE loans, however if you dont do well in school, you will be in major trouble. This goes for Med, Law, and Dental.

I will agree that scholarships ARE a factor, just not as much of a factor as most TLS'ers are making them out to be.

This is the norm, and "affordability" is not the factor that matters in the scheme of things... its your ability to succeed. Do well, and your debt wont matter. Ask any successful Doctor or Lawyer.


Or dentist...

checkster
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby checkster » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:31 pm

Oh boy...

Law and Medical are not comparable in the United States today. Not a bit. You need to do your research. If you are going T14 than sure, pay sticker and take out the loans you need. But if you are talking about L&C, a Tier 2, at sticker price, then you are sadly misinformed about the current state of the legal field. Everyone goes to law school thinking they will be the hardest worker and graduate on top and get the huge jobs and pay off their debt immediately. Most don't. Those who are 100k+ in the hole are truly screwed.

Scholarships matter, unless your parents are paying the bill.

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KibblesnBitts
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby KibblesnBitts » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:32 pm

benburns214 wrote:Disagree. In Law and Med school, you take out MASSIVE loans, however if you dont do well in school, you will be in major trouble. This goes for Med, Law, and Dental.

This is the norm, and "affordability" is not the factor that matters in the scheme of things... its your ability to succeed. Do well, and your debt wont matter. Ask any successful Doctor or Lawyer.


Or dentist...


That used to be the case, but let's face it - the legal market is very saturated, and going into law school makes no guarantee to be successful - even if you do really well. We're all taking huge risks by going to law school, and taking out massive loans is something that any applicant needs to think twice about. Affordability is definitely a huge factor in this day and age.

benburns214
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby benburns214 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:34 pm

checkster wrote:Oh boy...

Law and Medical are not comparable in the United States today. Not a bit. You need to do your research. If you are going T14 than sure, pay sticker and take out the loans you need. But if you are talking about L&C, a Tier 2, at sticker price, then you are sadly misinformed about the current state of the legal field. Everyone goes to law school thinking they will be the hardest worker and graduate on top and get the huge jobs and pay off their debt immediately. Most don't. Those who are 100k+ in the hole are truly screwed.

Scholarships matter, unless your parents are paying the bill.


I know and work for 10+ attorneys... EVERY SINGLE ONE of them went to a T2 or lower, and every single one of them is loaded.

Advice from actual attorneys is to go to the highest ranked school you can, do well, and you'll be fine.

I believe it is you who is misinformed, perhaps paranoid even.

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kmokeefe
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby kmokeefe » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:34 pm

benburns214 wrote:
checkster wrote:
benburns214 wrote:
kmokeefe wrote:Got my acceptance package last week for the part-time program. I decided to email them asking for scholarship reconsideration. As much as I'd love to attend, I just can't afford to go otherwise.


It's called loans. Do you think anyone can "afford" to go to Med or Law school? No... you take out loans. Scholarships are nice, but dont make them your deciding factor. Just a word of advice from someone who is probably in no position to be giving advice.


^^ No.

Scholarships are a huge factor. Loans are probably necessary, but don't just think everything will work out and 150k of debt is no big deal. Money matters.


Disagree. In Law and Med school, you take out MASSIVE loans, however if you dont do well in school, you will be in major trouble. This goes for Med, Law, and Dental.

I will agree that scholarships ARE a factor, just not as much of a factor as most TLS'ers are making them out to be.

This is the norm, and "affordability" is not the factor that matters in the scheme of things... its your ability to succeed. Do well, and your debt wont matter. Ask any successful Doctor or Lawyer.


Or dentist...

You're very mistaken about the law market, especially in comparing it to the medical field. There are more graduates in the law field than jobs available every year. Salaries for law and medicine don't even compare.

I really hope nobody has followed your advice.

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KibblesnBitts
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby KibblesnBitts » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:36 pm

benburns214 wrote:
checkster wrote:Oh boy...

Law and Medical are not comparable in the United States today. Not a bit. You need to do your research. If you are going T14 than sure, pay sticker and take out the loans you need. But if you are talking about L&C, a Tier 2, at sticker price, then you are sadly misinformed about the current state of the legal field. Everyone goes to law school thinking they will be the hardest worker and graduate on top and get the huge jobs and pay off their debt immediately. Most don't. Those who are 100k+ in the hole are truly screwed.

Scholarships matter, unless your parents are paying the bill.


I know and work for 10+ attorneys... EVERY SINGLE ONE of them went to a T2 or lower, and every single one of them is loaded.

Advice from actual attorneys is to go to the highest ranked school you can, do well, and you'll be fine.

I believe it is you who is misinformed, perhaps paranoid even.


You're relying on anecdotal evidence and not considering the possibility that the market has changed very recently (2008-Present)...do you not remember anything from the LSAT?

checkster
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby checkster » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:37 pm

+1

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Campagnolo
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby Campagnolo » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:54 pm

benburns214 wrote:
checkster wrote:Oh boy...

Law and Medical are not comparable in the United States today. Not a bit. You need to do your research. If you are going T14 than sure, pay sticker and take out the loans you need. But if you are talking about L&C, a Tier 2, at sticker price, then you are sadly misinformed about the current state of the legal field. Everyone goes to law school thinking they will be the hardest worker and graduate on top and get the huge jobs and pay off their debt immediately. Most don't. Those who are 100k+ in the hole are truly screwed.

Scholarships matter, unless your parents are paying the bill.


I know and work for 10+ attorneys... EVERY SINGLE ONE of them went to a T2 or lower, and every single one of them is loaded.

Advice from actual attorneys is to go to the highest ranked school you can, do well, and you'll be fine.

I believe it is you who is misinformed, perhaps paranoid even.


Every person I've met speaks English, therefore all people speak English.

benburns214
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby benburns214 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:02 pm

KibblesnBitts wrote:
benburns214 wrote:
checkster wrote:Oh boy...

Law and Medical are not comparable in the United States today. Not a bit. You need to do your research. If you are going T14 than sure, pay sticker and take out the loans you need. But if you are talking about L&C, a Tier 2, at sticker price, then you are sadly misinformed about the current state of the legal field. Everyone goes to law school thinking they will be the hardest worker and graduate on top and get the huge jobs and pay off their debt immediately. Most don't. Those who are 100k+ in the hole are truly screwed.

Scholarships matter, unless your parents are paying the bill.


I know and work for 10+ attorneys... EVERY SINGLE ONE of them went to a T2 or lower, and every single one of them is loaded.

Advice from actual attorneys is to go to the highest ranked school you can, do well, and you'll be fine.

I believe it is you who is misinformed, perhaps paranoid even.


You're relying on anecdotal evidence and not considering the possibility that the market has changed very recently (2008-Present)...do you not remember anything from the LSAT?


The market has increased dramatically since 2008... whats your point.

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Campagnolo
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby Campagnolo » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:07 pm

benburns214 wrote:
KibblesnBitts wrote:
benburns214 wrote:
checkster wrote:Oh boy...

Law and Medical are not comparable in the United States today. Not a bit. You need to do your research. If you are going T14 than sure, pay sticker and take out the loans you need. But if you are talking about L&C, a Tier 2, at sticker price, then you are sadly misinformed about the current state of the legal field. Everyone goes to law school thinking they will be the hardest worker and graduate on top and get the huge jobs and pay off their debt immediately. Most don't. Those who are 100k+ in the hole are truly screwed.

Scholarships matter, unless your parents are paying the bill.


I know and work for 10+ attorneys... EVERY SINGLE ONE of them went to a T2 or lower, and every single one of them is loaded.

Advice from actual attorneys is to go to the highest ranked school you can, do well, and you'll be fine.

I believe it is you who is misinformed, perhaps paranoid even.


You're relying on anecdotal evidence and not considering the possibility that the market has changed very recently (2008-Present)...do you not remember anything from the LSAT?


The market has increased dramatically since 2008... whats your point.


Not here in PDX, it hasn't. This is a small market to begin with, and what little hiring there was has not rebounded. I'm not going to get into a pissing match over it, I am simply inviting you to do a little more reading on the subject.

benburns214
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby benburns214 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:43 pm

Overall, the market is bouncing back... thats what im saying. And I understand the argument that 150K of debt is scary because there is no guarantee that you will do well in Law school and thus not get a good job. But what people fail to recognize is that this is the case for most all jobs, and definitely the case with all "professional school" jobs.

My only point is... Someone shouldn't decide not to attend a law school merely because it is "expensive", as this is the case for all professional schools. If you do well, you'll get a job and be able to pay off your debt, in both Med and Law school. Thats is the only comparison I was making between the two.

Either way tho... ultimately, do what you want do to and what you feel is best. Because we all have our own opinions.

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Campagnolo
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby Campagnolo » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:01 pm

Yes, we all have our own opinions, but some are true opinions with strong reasoning and empirical evidence to back up our opinions. While I'm not searching for apodictic certainty here, I think a little more research is needed here.

Let's say you pay sticker price for L+C. You're in the hole what, $150,000? Let's also assume an 8% interest rate. You're in the hole $1,819.91 per month for 10 years. Extend the loan over 30 years and you're still looking at $1,100.65. That's a lot of money, any way you slice it. The top salary you can expect in Portland is $120,000 per year. Do you know how many associates were offered that salary last year? 3. The other "Biglaw" salaries in PDX are between $90,000 and $110,000. There were about 15 to 18 of these positions last year. Past that, you're looking at very small firms where you can expect to start at $40,000 a year.

If you're going to make that big old loan payment, you'd better be one of the 15. Also, half of the 15 were from T14 schools. Portland's star is rising, and people want to come here.

I'm not necessarily discouraging you, I just trying to make sure you aren't looking at things through rose-tinted glasses.

benburns214
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby benburns214 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:20 pm

Campagnolo wrote:Yes, we all have our own opinions, but some are true opinions with strong reasoning and empirical evidence to back up our opinions. While I'm not searching for apodictic certainty here, I think a little more research is needed here.

Let's say you pay sticker price for L+C. You're in the hole what, $150,000? Let's also assume an 8% interest rate. You're in the hole $1,819.91 per month for 10 years. Extend the loan over 30 years and you're still looking at $1,100.65. That's a lot of money, any way you slice it. The top salary you can expect in Portland is $120,000 per year. Do you know how many associates were offered that salary last year? 3. The other "Biglaw" salaries in PDX are between $90,000 and $110,000. There were about 15 to 18 of these positions last year. Past that, you're looking at very small firms where you can expect to start at $40,000 a year.

If you're going to make that big old loan payment, you'd better be one of the 15. Also, half of the 15 were from T14 schools. Portland's star is rising, and people want to come here.

I'm not necessarily discouraging you, I just trying to make sure you aren't looking at things through rose-tinted glasses.


Your 40K estimate for starting salary is low... btw. And your neglecting to consider that you wont stay at your starting salary throughout your 30 year loan repayment plan. Assuming you eventually make partner, you are going to be making a ton of money. At the small law firm i work at, the 3 partners rake in over 250K a year each. And I live in Montana, where the legal market is practically non-existant in comparison to the rest of the country.

No offense, but I am looking more into the future than you are, I believe. I understand being cautious, but if you strive for success then plan for success. Yes, you are going to be in debt for a while... But thats what you endure when you decide to attend any professional school.

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kmokeefe
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby kmokeefe » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:27 pm

benburns214 wrote:
Campagnolo wrote:Yes, we all have our own opinions, but some are true opinions with strong reasoning and empirical evidence to back up our opinions. While I'm not searching for apodictic certainty here, I think a little more research is needed here.

Let's say you pay sticker price for L+C. You're in the hole what, $150,000? Let's also assume an 8% interest rate. You're in the hole $1,819.91 per month for 10 years. Extend the loan over 30 years and you're still looking at $1,100.65. That's a lot of money, any way you slice it. The top salary you can expect in Portland is $120,000 per year. Do you know how many associates were offered that salary last year? 3. The other "Biglaw" salaries in PDX are between $90,000 and $110,000. There were about 15 to 18 of these positions last year. Past that, you're looking at very small firms where you can expect to start at $40,000 a year.

If you're going to make that big old loan payment, you'd better be one of the 15. Also, half of the 15 were from T14 schools. Portland's star is rising, and people want to come here.

I'm not necessarily discouraging you, I just trying to make sure you aren't looking at things through rose-tinted glasses.


Your 40K estimate for starting salary is low... btw. And your neglecting to consider that you wont stay at your starting salary throughout your 30 year loan repayment plan. Assuming you eventually make partner, you are going to be making a ton of money. At the small law firm i work at, the 3 partners rake in over 250K a year. And I live in Montana, where the legal market is practically non-existant in comparison to the rest of the country.

I am looking more into the future than you are, I believe. I understand being cautious, but if you strive for success then plan for success. Yes, you are going to be in debt for a while... But thats what you endure when you decide to attend any professional school.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=135946&start=575
Find the post by theavrock in the link above, it will tell you about the salaries and types of jobs students from L&C are taking. Also don't assume that just because one is going to law school that they'll eventually make partner and be "making a ton of money." Your ideas of the salaries and jobs of lawyers in this economic climate are far too idealistic.

benburns214
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby benburns214 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:30 pm

You dont assume that everyone thats going to Med school is going to be a great doctor either do you? But would you ever say "dont go"?

THATS my point. The risk is inherent with any professional school.

Thats it, i have no other point. And quite frankly I no longer care, im beating a dead horse.

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kmokeefe
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby kmokeefe » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:32 pm

benburns214 wrote:You dont assume that everyone thats going to Med school is going to be a great doctor either do you? But would you ever say "dont go"?

THATS my point. The risk is inherent with any professional school.

Thats it, i have no other point. And quite frankly I no longer care, im beating a dead horse.

We're not talking about whether or not someone is going to be good at their profession, we're talking about the odds of getting a job that will pay off 150k in debt while still allowing you to feed yourself and have a roof over your head.

benburns214
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby benburns214 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:39 pm

kmokeefe wrote:
benburns214 wrote:You dont assume that everyone thats going to Med school is going to be a great doctor either do you? But would you ever say "dont go"?

THATS my point. The risk is inherent with any professional school.

Thats it, i have no other point. And quite frankly I no longer care, im beating a dead horse.

We're not talking about whether or not someone is going to be good at their profession, we're talking about the odds of getting a job that will pay off 150k in debt while still allowing you to feed yourself and have a roof over your head.


Well let's agree to disagree I suppose... It's hard to accurately voice an opinion via forum anyway. But, with a forum full of future lawyers, I suppose debate is to be expected.

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Campagnolo
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby Campagnolo » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:39 pm

benburns214 wrote:You dont assume that everyone thats going to Med school is going to be a great doctor either do you? But would you ever say "dont go"?

THATS my point. The risk is inherent with any professional school.

Thats it, i have no other point. And quite frankly I no longer care, im beating a dead horse.


We are trying to be nice to you. As long as you are comfortable that you are making an informed decision, then I'm going to let it be. I just hope you understand that the legal profession is no longer like med school (if ever it was), that there is a shortage of MDs, but a surplus of about 10k JDs each and every year. You might check out JD Underground if you are curious, or just really dig into the employment stats at Lewis and Clark. It's a good school, and I am seriously considering it, but I would not expect to land a job over $60k a year. It may well happen, but it is unlikely.

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corvid
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby corvid » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:07 pm

lol, a bunch of 0L (or less) are here to tell us all about the legal profession

cool story bro

charliep
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby charliep » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:54 pm

is anyone else considering staying at a hostel for the ASW? if so, any recommendations?

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kmokeefe
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby kmokeefe » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:17 am

I have a question for any current L&C students or Portland natives here:

How easy is it to find a part-time job? Since I'm doing the part-time evening program, ideally I would like to have a job to cover my living costs (which I would be splitting with my boyfriend who plans to come with me, if I make the move). I'm kind of scared of committing to going and then not being able to find a job at all, if y'all catch my drift. I'd be interested in work study with the school as well.

law_elf
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby law_elf » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:10 pm

corvid wrote:lol, a bunch of 0L (or less) are here to tell us all about the legal profession

cool story bro


Unfortunately, this seems to be the same story on most law school forums :/

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KibblesnBitts
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Re: 2012 Lewis & Clark People

Postby KibblesnBitts » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:58 pm

law_elf wrote:
corvid wrote:lol, a bunch of 0L (or less) are here to tell us all about the legal profession

cool story bro


Unfortunately, this seems to be the same story on most law school forums :/


I mean, once I get into Law School and decide to attend, I'm getting the hell out of the forums.




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