Top Law Schools

In my opinion, W&L is not worth the money when you get an "accept" to UTK. Also, their "new" 3L program is a big turn off compared to UTK's 3L. I have spoken with lawyers where I live, and they do not approve of the third year changes. W&M would be the only school I would heavily consider in Virginia, maybe UVA, maybe...


Daniel

Daniel- What branch were you? How long have you been out and what have you been doing to stay sane without the military to keep you occupied? If we can convince h2oplyer to come, I think we'll have enough prior service to start our own VFW. I'm with you on the merchandise conundrum; I've been scouring the interwebs looking for Coach Dooley's orange pants and was hoping to find them in the bookstore, but it wasn't to be.

As far as what I want to do, I'm thinking prosecution or first amendment stuff. What about you?

Have you considered buying a home in Knoxville?

Congrats and see you at the end of the month.

texag1979 wrote:Daniel- What branch were you? How long have you been out and what have you been doing to stay sane without the military to keep you occupied? If we can convince h2oplyer to come, I think we'll have enough prior service to start our own VFW. I'm with you on the merchandise conundrum; I've been scouring the interwebs looking for Coach Dooley's orange pants and was hoping to find them in the bookstore, but it wasn't to be.

As far as what I want to do, I'm thinking prosecution or first amendment stuff. What about you?

Have you considered buying a home in Knoxville?

Congrats and see you at the end of the month.

Hey Brother,

I was a combat medic stationed at Fort Drum- no real combat. I have been out for 3 1/2 years! Wow, it seems like only yesterday! HaHa! Those orange pants are awesome- in a uncanny dreamsicle kinda way. I went to culinary school at the CIA to remain sane- didn't work. I just learned to put my energy into my undergraduate- nerdy I know, I swear I am cooler than this post portrays me! I like contracts or real estate with dispute mediation in my back pocket.

I have read your stuff, really funny; and I look forward to meeting you in person at the end. You will also see my wife and 2 kids.

Daniel

Does anyones status bar look like this...


Status
Term: Fall
Year: 2012
Program Time: Full-time
Degree: JD
Current Status: Accepted Admission Offer
Current Status Date: 3/8/2012
Decision Status: Admitted
Decision Status Date: 2/1/2012


What makes them switch to accepted offer?

Wow. Did not expect this- dinged down from 56 to 69!


http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... ngs/page+3

This is a big deal, no? Look at the people employed at graduation and the amount of money students are making coming out. A big ding! I hope these numbers are not accurate! Wow, shocked!

eh. I'm not worried, but then again, rankings aren't really important to me. The method for ranking schools isn't that great. Peer schools and lawyers "perception" of the school counts for a lot, and so do the LSAT scores and GPAs of the entering class (so if UT uses subjective factors to select students rather than just worrying about numbers, the ranking goes down) Job placement and salaries are still pretty good in my opinion, especially considering the state of the economy. A lot of schools are really strict about who they let in based on numbers, just so that they can gain a few points in ranking; but then they miss out on great applicants who have slightly lower numbers.

So, its no biggie to me.

Comoncents wrote:Does anyones status bar look like this...


Status
Term: Fall
Year: 2012
Program Time: Full-time
Degree: JD
Current Status: Accepted Admission Offer
Current Status Date: 3/8/2012
Decision Status: Admitted
Decision Status Date: 2/1/2012


What makes them switch to accepted offer?

Mine is like this (different dates), but I accepted my offer to attend. Did you tell them that you are attending this Fall?

cutecarmel wrote:eh. I'm not worried, but then again, rankings aren't really important to me. The method for ranking schools isn't that great. Peer schools and lawyers "perception" of the school counts for a lot, and so do the LSAT scores and GPAs of the entering class (so if UT uses subjective factors to select students rather than just worrying about numbers, the ranking goes down) Job placement and salaries are still pretty good in my opinion, especially considering the state of the economy. A lot of schools are really strict about who they let in based on numbers, just so that they can gain a few points in ranking; but then they miss out on great applicants who have slightly lower numbers.

So, its no biggie to me.

Job acceptance and pay is abysmal compared to last year, and many other schools.
I don't think I will change because I am very loyal once my word is given, but this sure does shake me a bit.
I'll probably wake up tomorrow and forget about it, but the thing that kills me is that I passed up on a top 25 school for UTK. It was not that bad when they were 30th and UTK was 56th. Now they are 24 and UTK is 69th. Job placement is 90% compared to 56%, 93,000 vs 65,000.

Probably nothing...

cutecarmel wrote:

Comoncents wrote:Does anyones status bar look like this...


Status
Term: Fall
Year: 2012
Program Time: Full-time
Degree: JD
Current Status: Accepted Admission Offer
Current Status Date: 3/8/2012
Decision Status: Admitted
Decision Status Date: 2/1/2012


What makes them switch to accepted offer?

Mine is like this (different dates), but I accepted my offer to attend. Did you tell them that you are attending this Fall?

Yeah, I was wondering what it took to get this status change. I wondered if it was b/c deposit payment or written acceptance.

Already getting over it, so I feel better.

Comoncents wrote: Job acceptance and pay is abysmal compared to last year, and many other schools.
I don't think I will change because I am very loyal once my word is given, but this sure does shake me a bit.
I'll probably wake up tomorrow and forget about it, but the thing that kills me is that I passed up on a top 25 school for UTK. It was not that bad when they were 30th and UTK was 56th. Now they are 24 and UTK is 69th. Job placement is 90% compared to 56%, 93,000 vs 65,000.

Probably nothing...

Why do you think UTK job placement is only 56%? Its no where near that low. And the average salary only went down about 5k since last year (which seems normal because of the economy. And salaries are higher outside of Tennessee and based on the people who I have talked to, they do very well placing students in jobs out of state if they want to. If you are looking at a school that where the salary is 90k the first year, it is probably a school that is placing a lot of students in Big Law (or whatever its called). I think those stats are slightly misleading for those who want small private practices.

I'm curious, where are you getting your statistics from?

Edit: Oh ok. I think you are looking at the USN website. The job placement is 56% at graduation, but nearly everyone is employed within 9 months. I've been looking at the statistics that UTK released.
I think if rankings are really important to you, you could always consider your other offers. You don't want to be the bitter guy in law school that walks around saying "I knew should have gone to XYZ law school" because you regretted your decision. But if you do change your mind, just make sure you give notice because I know a lot of people are still waiting to get in. Personally, I'm confident in my ability to network enough and get enough practical experience to get a job at graduation, but others may not have my[occassionally naive] optimism. I think if you are determined enough, you'll make a way for yourself regardless of where you go....lol, there goes my optimism again.

AND....
For those of you who didn't already know, here is the employment data for recent UTK graduates. It does show decline, but I think the fact that they were willing to post it on their page shows some degree of confidence that numbers will go up.

http://www.law.utk.edu/administration/c ... rvey.shtml

This is the optimist in me speaking, but Dean Blaze was awesome when I met him and I think he understands things pretty well.

Taken from his interview on TLS

Dean Doug Blaze

TLS: What are your thoughts on the U.S. News Law School Rankings?

Just do the right things. In other words, if a school works hard at providing a very high quality and affordable legal education, the rankings will take care of themselves – or the rankings aren’t meaningful. Our focus is, and should be, on being the law school we can possibly be.

wightjm wrote:This is the optimist in me speaking, but Dean Blaze was awesome when I met him and I think he understands things pretty well.

Taken from his interview on TLS

Dean Doug Blaze

TLS: What are your thoughts on the U.S. News Law School Rankings?

Just do the right things. In other words, if a school works hard at providing a very high quality and affordable legal education, the rankings will take care of themselves – or the rankings aren’t meaningful. Our focus is, and should be, on being the law school we can possibly be.

I looked up the same interviews. He also says:

I am not concerned. If the ranking reflected some drop or failure, I would be. But our program, faculty, and students truly get better every year. So I am pretty confident that if the rankings really do measure the quality of a law school, the dip will be short lived.

UTK's emphasis on qualitative rather than solely quantitative factors is a nice break from law school reps who's every sentence starts off with: "Well we are ranked XX in the nation and XX and the state, so..."

Honestly, I think everyone has to keep in mind that nearly all the schools in the USN Tier I outside the T25 are very similar. I am not saying these numbers don't concern me, but I am saying you have to take them with a grain of salt. UTK has a solid reputation, and if it jumps 15 spots next year it wouldn't surprise me.

Schools that should be worried, in my opinion, are schools like Villanova, which has fallen from 60 to 101 in two years. To me that seems bad. Still, it's not like Villanova's reputation is going to fall apart because of it.

At this time I am still leaning toward Tennessee. I am still waiting to hear from Notre Dame, Florida, Wisconsin and Maryland, but even if I get in to any of those schools, I think I am still leaning toward Tennessee.

Ok. One more thing (then I'm getting off of this site and going to bed, I swear ).

As far as the drop in rankings, the US News Report has changed the method for calculating employment data. The schools aren't required to use it until the graduating class for 2011 (which I don't think are available yet) and I know for a fact that UTK is already using it even though it is not necessary yet. I think the new method might be a reason for the drop. So again, I don't think its anything to worry about.

The ABA will start requiring more detailed jobs placement data for the 2011 graduating class that will require law schools to reveal such key stats as how many graduates had jobs that are full time or part time, short term or long term, and that actually require the J.D. degree. U.S. News plans to incorporate this more granular data into our methodology for future rankings.

Current UTK 2L taking questions.

Hey rt1987!

What made you choose UTK? Did you look at any other schools? What is your favorite and least favorite thing about the school?

Thanks!

Also, we need to post some pictures of UTK in the picture section. I am dying to see what the library, classrooms and school look like. There is nothing on Google.

I am not from Tennessee originally and took some time off after undergrad to figure out if law school was really the right place for me. I looked at a lot of schools (most in the South and Mid-Atlantic), and I really loved the atmosphere at UTK. It just felt right. I toured a few schools where students passing by in the hallways would just look down as they passed. At UTK everyone is pretty friendly, and that's important, especially considering you are going to spend three years with these people (not to mention they will be your future colleagues in the legal community). People here are very passionate about our community atmosphere. If I have missed a class, I have had no problems getting the notes from someone (or giving notes to a classmate that wasn't there). It's definitely competitive here (as I imagine it is competitive at every law school in the country), but not cutthroat at all. I love the people here and I'm really glad I came here.

Favorite thing: the people. It's a work hard/play hard atmosphere. People here study very hard during the weeks and play hard during the weekends. But I love the diversity here too. "Play hard" can mean a ton of things. Some people like to go hiking in the mountains. Others like to hit the undergrad bars near campus. Some like to go volunteer. Some go to Knoxville Ice Bears games on weekends. Point being, there are plenty of things to do, and this is a school that gives a great balance between a solid legal education and the opportunity to still enjoy yourself (as much as you can in law school, anyways).

Least favorite thing: parking? I don't know. There are a lot of things people complain about in law school, and I am just like other students in that fashion. But almost all of my complaints aren't law school specific, and I would complain about them regardless of which school I went to. At UTK, the parking is a pain in the ass sometimes (but as long as you are here before 9, it's not a big deal). There isn't too much interaction with the undergrads, and that can be a good or bad thing, depending on how you look at it.

One thing is Knoxville is a really unique place. People from small towns think it's huge; people from big cities think it's small. There is enough to do here (law school will keep you busy most of the time), but some people from places like New York, Atlanta, Nashville, etc. can find it boring. You will get mixed reviews from everyone. I think it's a great college city (it's not a 'college town' like Tuscaloosa or Chapel Hill, but Knoxville definitely revolves around UTK), but not a place I envision myself in the long run.

I will work on the pictures. Keep the questions coming (I will try and be as much help as I can).

cutecarmel wrote:AND....
For those of you who didn't already know, here is the employment data for recent UTK graduates. It does show decline, but I think the fact that they were willing to post it on their page shows some degree of confidence that numbers will go up.

http://www.law.utk.edu/administration/c ... rvey.shtml

yeah, I think I ma iver it now. The initial shock did get to me. I have a family that I am moving, so I have to weight everything. I am taking my kids out of a great school in order t mov; my wife out of a great job. I have to make sure the move is worth it. I also have a law school ranked in the top 25 that is only an hour away, and yes accepted. I chose UTK over them, so making the decision to move was a big one, but like I said, I think i'm over it now. I am a man of my word, and still feel confident in UTK.

Also, that employment number is not inflated right? Like, if a graduate gets a job at Wendy's, they are not counting that as "job placements," right. That is a big reason why so many are low in the US News Rank- they only count attorney positions at graduation. Let me know your thoughts on it. Thanks for your input!

I'm counting the days until the 30th!!! I wonder if they will address the drop in ranking? I would like them to be honest about it, and not bullish. I would hate to see them just throw rankings completely out- on their website they brag about being in the top 60. I just want them to be honest about it, and not deny the rankings b/c of a lower score. Tell us why they think it happened, and if they plan in fighting to improve their spot. After thinking about it, I do not mind as long as I can get a job when I get out, and that falls on my networking/ preparation. It would bother me if I did everything and still could not find job, but I don't think that will happen.



Daniel

"Your Student ID number will be printed on your Student ID card (VolCard). Your VolCard will include your picture and will be used as a form of identification and authentication. You may use your Student ID number to confirm your admission and pay your admission deposit online."



Amazing!!!!! Email!!!!!

What school did you pass up commencement that's top 25 now?

Im in a simmilar boat with you in regards to W&L and UTK etc

RaiderBlue17 wrote:What school did you pass up commencement that's top 25 now?

Im in a simmilar boat with you in regards to W&L and UTK etc

Yep, thats it.
Why?
Are you thinking about passing up UTK, or the other school?
Did the rankings shake you?


Daniel