2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

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flem
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby flem » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:38 pm

RaiderBlue17 wrote:Ok guys: I need a bit of help... If you must skewer me for my lack of knowledge so be it, but please give me honest help as well.

I was just offered a good amount of money at DU, Over half tuition a year, BUT the big thing is that I need to keep a 3.0 GPA to keep this award.

NOW: I have heard law schools grade on a curve, but Im not REALLY sure what that means ... SO I consider myself a good student BUT does a 3.0 stipulation ask TOO much of an individual? Or does a 3.0 stipulation really seem doable with so many other good students in the class etc.

I guess bottom line is this: If offered a deal like this would you consider the Offer as asking too much? I.E. a catch in the deal?

I hope I got out what I was asking about: is this a good deal or simply something that will get me interested in the school and DISSAPEAR after one semester b/c the stipulation is so too high etc.

Thank you


No stips are better than stips, obviously. But a 3.0 is at median so it's not something totally outrageous. If I was below median at DU after 1L I'd probably drop out anyway, for what it's worth.

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un-vordox
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby un-vordox » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:54 pm

flem wrote:
RaiderBlue17 wrote:Ok guys: I need a bit of help... If you must skewer me for my lack of knowledge so be it, but please give me honest help as well.

I was just offered a good amount of money at DU, Over half tuition a year, BUT the big thing is that I need to keep a 3.0 GPA to keep this award.

NOW: I have heard law schools grade on a curve, but Im not REALLY sure what that means ... SO I consider myself a good student BUT does a 3.0 stipulation ask TOO much of an individual? Or does a 3.0 stipulation really seem doable with so many other good students in the class etc.

I guess bottom line is this: If offered a deal like this would you consider the Offer as asking too much? I.E. a catch in the deal?

I hope I got out what I was asking about: is this a good deal or simply something that will get me interested in the school and DISSAPEAR after one semester b/c the stipulation is so too high etc.

Thank you


No stips are better than stips, obviously. But a 3.0 is at median so it's not something totally outrageous. If I was below median at DU after 1L I'd probably drop out anyway, for what it's worth.


Credited

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fundamentallybroken
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby fundamentallybroken » Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:54 pm

flem wrote:
RaiderBlue17 wrote:Ok guys: I need a bit of help... If you must skewer me for my lack of knowledge so be it, but please give me honest help as well.

I was just offered a good amount of money at DU, Over half tuition a year, BUT the big thing is that I need to keep a 3.0 GPA to keep this award.

NOW: I have heard law schools grade on a curve, but Im not REALLY sure what that means ... SO I consider myself a good student BUT does a 3.0 stipulation ask TOO much of an individual? Or does a 3.0 stipulation really seem doable with so many other good students in the class etc.

I guess bottom line is this: If offered a deal like this would you consider the Offer as asking too much? I.E. a catch in the deal?

I hope I got out what I was asking about: is this a good deal or simply something that will get me interested in the school and DISSAPEAR after one semester b/c the stipulation is so too high etc.

Thank you


No stips are better than stips, obviously. But a 3.0 is at median so it's not something totally outrageous. If I was below median at DU after 1L I'd probably drop out anyway, for what it's worth.


Also credited.

Nearly all DU schollys come with a 3.0 stip. 3.0 is median, and not hard to maintain - they don't stack sections or do anything else to affirmatively try to take away the money. Further, if you do happen to fall below median, they let you keep the scholarship for another semester to try and bring your gpa back up. If you can't do that after a semester, you should probably be rethinking your path anyway.

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flem
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby flem » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:07 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Before I add my two cents, a little about me.
I almost went to DU on a full ride last year, but they wouldn't tell me their detailed employment numbers when I asked for them. I felt that this was a bad sign, so I didn't attend. Full disclosure: I now attend CU.

I've never heard the conventional wisdom about DU having an edge over CU in the Denver firm market, because that would be akin to saying that DU>CU for private employment as Denver is the only firm market in CO. I don't think the numbers bear this out, but really, the best info to give an 0L about either school must focus on the fact that there are way too many lawyers in CO. Saying CU has an edge in this and DU an edge in that is just missing the point.

Employment info on the two schools in 2009-- http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681
CU - 30% over 60k or Art. III clerks
DU - 6% over 55k or Art. III clerks

I could say CU>DU, but lets face it both of these numbers are really, really bad. From a purely financial standpoint, both of these schools are currently very poor decisions. So why draw distinctions? If you are called to be an attorney and you are ok being broke your whole life (assuming you will want to have a family, own a home, etc.) and relying on LRAP or IBR, then either one of these schools will provide you with a great education and a super network in CO. If you are independently wealthy and want a JD, go for it, either school is respected in CO. If not... Maybe don't go to either school. I fall into one of the two categories above, but I have classmates who do not. I speak for them and I am only trying to help. Good luck.

This scares the ever-living fuck out of me.

Fundamentallybroken, any input on the job market now?

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fundamentallybroken
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby fundamentallybroken » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:23 pm

flem wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Before I add my two cents, a little about me.
I almost went to DU on a full ride last year, but they wouldn't tell me their detailed employment numbers when I asked for them. I felt that this was a bad sign, so I didn't attend. Full disclosure: I now attend CU.

I've never heard the conventional wisdom about DU having an edge over CU in the Denver firm market, because that would be akin to saying that DU>CU for private employment as Denver is the only firm market in CO. I don't think the numbers bear this out, but really, the best info to give an 0L about either school must focus on the fact that there are way too many lawyers in CO. Saying CU has an edge in this and DU an edge in that is just missing the point.

Employment info on the two schools in 2009-- viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681
CU - 30% over 60k or Art. III clerks
DU - 6% over 55k or Art. III clerks

I could say CU>DU, but lets face it both of these numbers are really, really bad. From a purely financial standpoint, both of these schools are currently very poor decisions. So why draw distinctions? If you are called to be an attorney and you are ok being broke your whole life (assuming you will want to have a family, own a home, etc.) and relying on LRAP or IBR, then either one of these schools will provide you with a great education and a super network in CO. If you are independently wealthy and want a JD, go for it, either school is respected in CO. If not... Maybe don't go to either school. I fall into one of the two categories above, but I have classmates who do not. I speak for them and I am only trying to help. Good luck.

This scares the ever-living fuck out of me.

Fundamentallybroken, any input on the job market now?


I only have anecdotes, and can only really respond to McDuff's post by saying that those were 2009 numbers, in the midst of ITE, and things seem to be picking up at least a little bit.

As an example, and hopefully a sign of things to come, in 2010 there weren't really any paying jobs in Denver for 1L summers. Now there are at least 2 firms hiring 3 to 4 1Ls for this summer, plus 3 or 4 companies hiring for in-house (paid) gigs over the summer for 1Ls. Aside from the paying jobs, there seems to be a lot of my friends easily picking up externships at firms, small practices, and different courts.

That's not to say things are rosy and carefree yet, but there is certainly less of a doom-and-gloom feeling than one would get from looking at 2009 numbers. Of course, there is also a self-selection problem: I'm top 5-10% (official rankings don't come out until summer), and most of the people I'm friends with are comfortably above median, so the ease at which I see people getting work for the summers (and the 2Ls and 3Ls I know with offers for after school) is based solely on my circle of friends. Those at or below median very well may sing a different tune...

RaiderBlue17
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby RaiderBlue17 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:05 pm

How about scholarship negotiations? I just feel like the first offer is the bare minimum and like the old saying goes, it never hurts to ask.

THANK YOU for all your input and hopefully i can make a decision soon!

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fundamentallybroken
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby fundamentallybroken » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:11 pm

RaiderBlue17 wrote:How about scholarship negotiations? I just feel like the first offer is the bare minimum and like the old saying goes, it never hurts to ask.

THANK YOU for all your input and hopefully i can make a decision soon!


Don't know. Last cycle, a lot of people tried and failed. However, like you said, it never hurts to ask, and the worst they can say is no!

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:57 pm

fundamentallybroken wrote:
flem wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Before I add my two cents, a little about me.
I almost went to DU on a full ride last year, but they wouldn't tell me their detailed employment numbers when I asked for them. I felt that this was a bad sign, so I didn't attend. Full disclosure: I now attend CU.

I've never heard the conventional wisdom about DU having an edge over CU in the Denver firm market, because that would be akin to saying that DU>CU for private employment as Denver is the only firm market in CO. I don't think the numbers bear this out, but really, the best info to give an 0L about either school must focus on the fact that there are way too many lawyers in CO. Saying CU has an edge in this and DU an edge in that is just missing the point.

Employment info on the two schools in 2009-- viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681
CU - 30% over 60k or Art. III clerks
DU - 6% over 55k or Art. III clerks

I could say CU>DU, but lets face it both of these numbers are really, really bad. From a purely financial standpoint, both of these schools are currently very poor decisions. So why draw distinctions? If you are called to be an attorney and you are ok being broke your whole life (assuming you will want to have a family, own a home, etc.) and relying on LRAP or IBR, then either one of these schools will provide you with a great education and a super network in CO. If you are independently wealthy and want a JD, go for it, either school is respected in CO. If not... Maybe don't go to either school. I fall into one of the two categories above, but I have classmates who do not. I speak for them and I am only trying to help. Good luck.

This scares the ever-living fuck out of me.

Fundamentallybroken, any input on the job market now?


I only have anecdotes, and can only really respond to McDuff's post by saying that those were 2009 numbers, in the midst of ITE, and things seem to be picking up at least a little bit.

As an example, and hopefully a sign of things to come, in 2010 there weren't really any paying jobs in Denver for 1L summers. Now there are at least 2 firms hiring 3 to 4 1Ls for this summer, plus 3 or 4 companies hiring for in-house (paid) gigs over the summer for 1Ls. Aside from the paying jobs, there seems to be a lot of my friends easily picking up externships at firms, small practices, and different courts.

That's not to say things are rosy and carefree yet, but there is certainly less of a doom-and-gloom feeling than one would get from looking at 2009 numbers. Of course, there is also a self-selection problem: I'm top 5-10% (official rankings don't come out until summer), and most of the people I'm friends with are comfortably above median, so the ease at which I see people getting work for the summers (and the 2Ls and 3Ls I know with offers for after school) is based solely on my circle of friends. Those at or below median very well may sing a different tune...


I looked at the 2010 numbers and you may be right. They look better, which is good news.

DU 2010 (from DU website) 17.5% cleared 53k or had an Art. III Clerk.


CU's job website is really shady and I can't tell how bad it is for 2010, but from everything we've heard it has gotten worse, not better. Maybe they just had an odd class, but I think CU's numbers are going to shock people when then are posted by USNEWS here in about a month.

Still, my advice is the same. Horrible numbers. Do something else unless you "have" to be an attorney. I mean, DU's numbers went through the roof, and now, the situation is currently: spend 40k a year, plus living, plus lost revenue (opportunity costs) for three years and if you are lucky and beat out 4/5 of your classmates, you can get a job that pays 53k a year. Even if you win, you lose. Same from CU. If you are broke and are planning to go to law school and rake up debt because you think you need to "spend money to make money," or something cheesy and similar, you are really playing law school roulette. Odds are better from a mathematically standpoint of loaning money from Montel and putting it on an actual roulette spin in Vegas. Only come here if you think you can rely on LRAP or IBR to make a starting salary of 45k a year work for you and your family.

Congrats to fundamentallybroken. You are in the top 5%.. top 5% from DU opens up lots of interviews for 100k+ a year jobs. But realize you won the law school lottery, and statistically speaking 90% of those that come after you have to lose.

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fundamentallybroken
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby fundamentallybroken » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:39 pm

Thanks McDuff - I definitely feel like I won the law school lottery, especially since earlier this week I was offered one of the precious few paid 1L gigs. Although it wasn't as big of a gamble for me (lots of prior, high-demand WE, plus some strategic contacts in town, combined with a couple of good fallback plans), I'm extremely fortunate it paid off.

It's often said on these boards, and bears repeating and repeating and repeating: Do NOT go in to law school assuming you'll be in the top 10% of the class; 90% of the people in the school can't make that. Everyone you're going to school with has roughly the same LSAT score and GPA as you do. Everyone is, statistically, just as smart as you are (even the people you peg as not-so-bright will raise their hand at some point and knock your socks off - it's incredible.) Getting an A in class is not really about beating your classmates at essay writing; it's about lucking into the magic words and/or style your professor wants to see on your final.

For those considering or attending DU next fall, I will be signing up as a peer mentor, and am also currently lining up some TA work for spring/fall. The students and faculty at DU are amazing, always willing to help and answer questions, and I really hope I can continue that atmosphere as I go along through my school career as well. I won't out myself completely on the boards (although some people at school do know my alter ego), so you'll just have to ask if your TA is fundamentally broken or not. Should be fun...

thorntonjm2
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby thorntonjm2 » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:23 pm

Just got my acceptance email! Very excited being that this is my number one choice. Unfortunately, there is no way I would be able to pay sticker so I am hoping scholarship information comes soon... any word on how quickly that information follows?

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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby LAFish » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:44 pm

thorntonjm2 wrote:Just got my acceptance email! Very excited being that this is my number one choice. Unfortunately, there is no way I would be able to pay sticker so I am hoping scholarship information comes soon... any word on how quickly that information follows?


in the acceptance email.

thorntonjm2
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby thorntonjm2 » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:01 pm

Well that kind of rains on the parade... I am assuming that means no scholarship then. :|

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fundamentallybroken
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby fundamentallybroken » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:46 pm

thorntonjm2 wrote:Well that kind of rains on the parade... I am assuming that means no scholarship then. :|


Sometimes it comes in a separate email - be patient, and you can always call to verify.

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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby thorntonjm2 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:40 pm

fundamentallybroken wrote:
thorntonjm2 wrote:Well that kind of rains on the parade... I am assuming that means no scholarship then. :|


Sometimes it comes in a separate email - be patient, and you can always call to verify.


Thanks for the encouragement! I emailed them and the response was positive. 21k!!! Pretty sure this does it for me... I will likely be at DU come fall.

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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby CaptAdams » Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:31 pm

Just withdrew.

RaiderBlue17
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby RaiderBlue17 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:50 pm

Got 26K a year if I want to attend but that 3.0 stipulation just seems a bit too big to ignore.

I mean comparing UTK @ 16K a year with ZERO Stips Or

Denver at 11K a year

the 5k difference COULD save me 15K, BUT it's a coin toss EACH semester of being 3.0 or above. Thoughts people?

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flem
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby flem » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:32 am

RaiderBlue17 wrote:Got 26K a year if I want to attend but that 3.0 stipulation just seems a bit too big to ignore.

I mean comparing UTK @ 16K a year with ZERO Stips Or

Denver at 11K a year

the 5k difference COULD save me 15K, BUT it's a coin toss EACH semester of being 3.0 or above. Thoughts people?


Where do you want to practice? Where are you from?

As previously mentioned, the 3.0 stip is median, they don't stack sections, and you're given an extra semester to get above a 3.0 if you fall below it at some point. As far as stips go, there are FAR worse ones.

I really don't like the coin flip analogy because it doesn't take effort or ability into account and instead presumes law school grading is completely random and total luck. Is it random and difficult? Yeah. Pure luck of the draw? Clearly not, or no one would try.

UT-K would be the right call if you want to be/are from TN. It's well respected in the state even though it technically plays second fiddle to Vandy, but most of those bros go elsewhere.

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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby Stefyhead » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:01 pm

RaiderBlue17 wrote:Got 26K a year if I want to attend but that 3.0 stipulation just seems a bit too big to ignore.

I mean comparing UTK @ 16K a year with ZERO Stips Or

Denver at 11K a year

the 5k difference COULD save me 15K, BUT it's a coin toss EACH semester of being 3.0 or above. Thoughts people?


If you're not comfortable with the stip, you could try to negotiate with DU. Otherwise, I would trust your gut and go with what you're most comfortable with.

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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby cminthepm » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:50 pm

So if my email acceptance letter doesn't mention scholarship money, I still have a shot at it when my actual letter comes in? Or are they the same letter? I'm confused. I would love to attend Denver but I have a big scholarship at a higher ranked school so I need considerable cash or else Denver is out of the question. Has anyone had no mention of scholarship in their email, but money in the actual letter?

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un-vordox
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby un-vordox » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:12 pm

I don't know if it was in the letter after not being in the email, but a couple people had scholarship awards they didn't find out about until they called in to ask for $$. You should call.

thorntonjm2
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby thorntonjm2 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:27 pm

There was no mention of any scholarship money in the acceptance email I received last week, so I sent an email asking what the likelihood of receiving such aid was and they replied with an offer (21k). I would wait a day or two and then email or call if you don't receive anything.

RaiderBlue17
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby RaiderBlue17 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:18 pm

I've been IN LOVE with Denver since I left as a kid, I made a point to go an hours out of my way to drive through Vail on my way to Oregon for a job just to see where I could DREAM of retiring. I HOPE i could make a 3.0 but you never can tell... OH and UTK is going up to 17K this year... SAD FACE


Also 20K from SLU with NO STIPS so that makes working in St. Louis a big option too...

PEOPLE I NEED YOUR THOUGHTS!

flem wrote:
RaiderBlue17 wrote:Got 26K a year if I want to attend but that 3.0 stipulation just seems a bit too big to ignore.

I mean comparing UTK @ 16K a year with ZERO Stips Or

Denver at 11K a year

the 5k difference COULD save me 15K, BUT it's a coin toss EACH semester of being 3.0 or above. Thoughts people?


Where do you want to practice? Where are you from?

As previously mentioned, the 3.0 stip is median, they don't stack sections, and you're given an extra semester to get above a 3.0 if you fall below it at some point. As far as stips go, there are FAR worse ones.

I really don't like the coin flip analogy because it doesn't take effort or ability into account and instead presumes law school grading is completely random and total luck. Is it random and difficult? Yeah. Pure luck of the draw? Clearly not, or no one would try.

UT-K would be the right call if you want to be/are from TN. It's well respected in the state even though it technically plays second fiddle to Vandy, but most of those bros go elsewhere.

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un-vordox
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby un-vordox » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:46 pm

The stip is typical at a top 100 school. You're not getting screwed. Go to Denver. If you're worth the 21k, you'll make 3.0.

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fundamentallybroken
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby fundamentallybroken » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:59 pm

Trouble with SLU is that: A. You'll have to live/work in St. Louis; and (bigger than A), B. You'll be competing with WUSTL (ranked at 19 against SLU's >100). At least DU is 77 against CU's 47.

If you love Denver, the choice seems fairly obvious.

RaiderBlue17
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Re: 2011-2012 Cycle: University of Denver c/o 2015

Postby RaiderBlue17 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:12 am

fundamentallybroken wrote:Trouble with SLU is that: A. You'll have to live/work in St. Louis; and (bigger than A), B. You'll be competing with WUSTL (ranked at 19 against SLU's >100). At least DU is 77 against CU's 47.

If you love Denver, the choice seems fairly obvious.



I DO LOVE Denver, but I BELIEVE that if EVERYBODY is as smart as everybody else in law school, then the coin flip scenario applies. I am a wee bit older than kids just out of college, but I cannot guarantee that I'd be in the top half of DUs class. I hope that nobody could be THAT confident, LOL

My last concern with DU is the idea of a lack of true alumni support and connections. I haven't gotten a great feel for their employment stats relevant to Colorado. And Im not sure I'd really be competing with WashU kids at SLU seeing as im GUESSING they're looking for big law or top firms everywhere on the east coast.

I always hear 'everybody is as smart as you are' regarding law school so I can never feel COMPLETELY comfortable with a 3.0 stipulation, but HOPEFULLY after a visit to all of these schools one will stand out.

Thank You all, You have all been quite gracious.




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