IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

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TommyK
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby TommyK » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:15 am

Gail wrote:Here's one thing I don't understand. I accept that their strategy may have been to push the 166+ people to the next cycle through the defer and either now selectively target GPA or just regroup altogether, but then why are they giving out scholarships at all?

Anyone looking at 15k who isn't a citizen of Indiana is going to be an immediate withrdraw. Don't they know that?


The yield rate will be lower with less scholarship money, but I still think a good number of people will end up matriculating. Giving $10k/year is not dissimilar to what a lot of other programs do; it just seems like a strange departure from the norm considering last year. As an example from my cycle last year, CWRU offered me $15k and plenty of people end up accepting that offer. UMN gave out a bunch of $8-15k scholarships to people who were above one median and I think UMN will be just fine in filling their seats.

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TommyK
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby TommyK » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:17 am

iowalum wrote:Just got my new score - officially 167/3.1, not as high as I would like but still above the median. So hopefully it's not too late! Thoughts?


Congrats! I think you're in, but probably with $10k/year based on recent data points. Would you consider attending paying 3/4 of tuition?

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7ate9
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby 7ate9 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:14 pm

Quick question for those other people who were also admitted:

Before I received my admissions offer by e-mail, my status checker updated to say decision mailed. Has anyone admitted received any mailings? I received my offer over two weeks ago, but have not received any snail mail.

Thanks and best wishes to those still waiting!

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mrmojojak
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby mrmojojak » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:33 pm

I think it just means that they emailed you the decision. I haven't received any snail mail either.

Upon receipt of your acceptance, we will send you more detailed information to help with your transition to Bloomington and the law school community.


This came from the acceptance email, so I'm thinking that we're probably not getting anything other than the email unless we commit. It sure would have been a nice surprise to get some comped Hoosier tickets for my campus visit. Any acceptances want to catch a game this spring?

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mrmojojak
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby mrmojojak » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:38 pm

Scratch that... I missed:

(Admit Packet from Dean Motley to follow by USPS.)


I guess it could just be a little slow due to the holidays.

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Gail
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby Gail » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:42 pm

TommyK, UMN has about twice the employment numbers of Indiana.

I think the numbers will suffer more than what Indiana thinks it will. Have you ever seen people withdraw so fast from an institution that gives them a scholarship? I haven't. You can usually count on a lot of people at least trying to negotiate. For Indiana its automatic withdraw. I think that will come as a rude slap to the face.

How many deferrals could there be from last cycle? 20? How big is the class? 200?

If 10% of the class of 2015 has a 166+ and the rest of the class won't come without huge scholarship money, what else could possibly happen to their medians?


Hell, let's say that 50 people deferred. 75th percentile is 166. Last year's median was 166. That isn't good for Indiana. I'm just saying, the only reason that anyone could possibly have for attending Indiana is in-state with small scholarship or 120k. Their biglaw numbers are worse than schools in the TT. Hell, Loyola Chicago is a better option if you want to pay back your loans.

But that might be what IUB is banking on. Poor decision making.

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TommyK
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby TommyK » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:01 pm

Gail wrote:TommyK, UMN has about twice the employment numbers of Indiana.


I guess that could be true, but mostly because I have no clue what you mean by that... If you're talking about median salary, clerkship placement, percentage of those that respond, percent employed after 9 months, you're almost certainly wrong or at the minimum exaggerating by a healthy margin. But If you're talking about biglaw placement being 14% instead of 7% (or some other marginal number)... I guess that could be true, but I would argue that probably isn't a huge difference and doesn't paint a full picture of employment for a number of reasons.

Anyways, I wasn't trying to draw a value comparison between the two schools, which is why I specifically brought up other schools, including CWRU. I was saying what they're doing is far from atypical from what other schools are doing.

Gail wrote:I think the numbers will suffer more than what Indiana thinks it will. Have you ever seen people withdraw so fast from an institution that gives them a scholarship? I haven't. You can usually count on a lot of people at least trying to negotiate. For Indiana its automatic withdraw. I think that will come as a rude slap to the face.


Maybe... It's too soon to tell. I imagine that IUB will change their scholarship offerings toward the end of the cycle if they see this happening. Then again, maybe they're ok with the LSAT falling a point to 165 or staying at 166 if it means the scholarship pool they have will last 20 years longer?

But to get to your question: why people are automatically withdrawing - I would suspect you're seeing a biased sample on TLS, unless you know of some inside information from the admissions office. It very well might not be the case that people are withdrawing at a faster clip. I suspect a lot of the people who do immediately withdraw are only applying because they had heard those with similar numbers were provided 90% tuition last year so they were only planning to attend if they received a large tuition waiver. So yes, there might be more people that decline the offer, but there's a solid chance they wouldn't have even applied in the first place if they hadn't expected more.

nucky thompson
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby nucky thompson » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:16 pm

Gail wrote:TommyK, UMN has about twice the employment numbers of Indiana.

I think the numbers will suffer more than what Indiana thinks it will. Have you ever seen people withdraw so fast from an institution that gives them a scholarship? I haven't. You can usually count on a lot of people at least trying to negotiate. For Indiana its automatic withdraw. I think that will come as a rude slap to the face.

How many deferrals could there be from last cycle? 20? How big is the class? 200?

If 10% of the class of 2015 has a 166+ and the rest of the class won't come without huge scholarship money, what else could possibly happen to their medians?


Hell, let's say that 50 people deferred. 75th percentile is 166. Last year's median was 166. That isn't good for Indiana. I'm just saying, the only reason that anyone could possibly have for attending Indiana is in-state with small scholarship or 120k. Their biglaw numbers are worse than schools in the TT. Hell, Loyola Chicago is a better option if you want to pay back your loans.

But that might be what IUB is banking on. Poor decision making.





Gail - to be fair, it seems you arrived at a conclusion (iu not maintaining medians) and then tried to explain why by making up numbers. Iu has given out fully schollys to people this cycle, but only to those above both medians (with high likelihood of matriculation, it seems -- where else would a 166, 3.8x go over a full ride?) - many other splitters, like the 3.1 167 Iowaalum user will probably be accepted and offered minimal scholly. Same goes for similarly numbered splitters --- where else would they go? Under 168 with a very mediocre gpa? Many of these applicants will likely matriculated.

So far, we have the deferred students form last year (assumed to be highly qualified # wise), we also have however many 3.8+ iu undergrads that have been admitted without lasts. Also, it is reasonable to assume the more selective full scholarships being given out likely will have a high yield.

Then on top of that, you add splitters like Iowa alum with low gpas that will likely have fairly high matriculation because, higher ranked schools can still fill classes with same or better LSAT without compromising gpa.


Basically, it seems you want to believe iu is fucking everything up because idk, you seem bitter. Maybe you're hopping they end up screwed so your 166 will look more attractive - but again, I trust admissions departments, especially the one at iu-b (clearly, they understand the us news game) have their own best interests in mind.


tl;dr: their medians will likely stay the same.

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ColtsFan88
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby ColtsFan88 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:32 pm

nucky thompson wrote:
Gail wrote:TommyK, UMN has about twice the employment numbers of Indiana.

I think the numbers will suffer more than what Indiana thinks it will. Have you ever seen people withdraw so fast from an institution that gives them a scholarship? I haven't. You can usually count on a lot of people at least trying to negotiate. For Indiana its automatic withdraw. I think that will come as a rude slap to the face.

How many deferrals could there be from last cycle? 20? How big is the class? 200?

If 10% of the class of 2015 has a 166+ and the rest of the class won't come without huge scholarship money, what else could possibly happen to their medians?


Hell, let's say that 50 people deferred. 75th percentile is 166. Last year's median was 166. That isn't good for Indiana. I'm just saying, the only reason that anyone could possibly have for attending Indiana is in-state with small scholarship or 120k. Their biglaw numbers are worse than schools in the TT. Hell, Loyola Chicago is a better option if you want to pay back your loans.

But that might be what IUB is banking on. Poor decision making.





Gail - to be fair, it seems you arrived at a conclusion (iu not maintaining medians) and then tried to explain why by making up numbers. Iu has given out fully schollys to people this cycle, but only to those above both medians (with high likelihood of matriculation, it seems -- where else would a 166, 3.8x go over a full ride?) - many other splitters, like the 3.1 167 Iowaalum user will probably be accepted and offered minimal scholly. Same goes for similarly numbered splitters --- where else would they go? Under 168 with a very mediocre gpa? Many of these applicants will likely matriculated.

So far, we have the deferred students form last year (assumed to be highly qualified # wise), we also have however many 3.8+ iu undergrads that have been admitted without lasts. Also, it is reasonable to assume the more selective full scholarships being given out likely will have a high yield.

Then on top of that, you add splitters like Iowa alum with low gpas that will likely have fairly high matriculation because, higher ranked schools can still fill classes with same or better LSAT without compromising gpa.


Basically, it seems you want to believe iu is fucking everything up because idk, you seem bitter. Maybe you're hopping they end up screwed so your 166 will look more attractive - but again, I trust admissions departments, especially the one at iu-b (clearly, they understand the us news game) have their own best interests in mind.


tl;dr: their medians will likely stay the same.


I was an instate, IUB undergrad with a 177. IUB was one of my top 3 choices, and the other two I havent been accepted to yet. But there is no way I am attending with a 15k scholly. I wouldve liked to return to my almamater, but it does feel a little bit like a slap in the face.

I do think that the admissions department has their own interests in mind (as they should), but im not sure its going to turn out how they want it to. You gotta remember that anyone heading to IUB is resigning themselves to working in Indy. The employment numbers in Indy are barely decent, and anywhere else they are absolutely nonexistent. I'm not sure the yield on those full rides is going to be what you think it is.

EDIT: I'm not saying their medians will certainly drop. I am saying that their medians are artificially inflated by last year's large scholarships. Without those scholarships their medians were much lower, which were much more reflective of their employment numbers (remember everything is connected- higher quality applicants choose higher quality schools because of employment stats or scholly money). Take away the scholarships, while adding nothing to the graduates' employability, and the higher quality applicants will flock elsewhere. I'm not sure the medians will drop, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

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mattviphky
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby mattviphky » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:40 pm

meh, they'll probably up the scholly offers later in the cycle

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ColtsFan88
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby ColtsFan88 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:48 pm

mattviphky wrote:meh, they'll probably up the scholly offers later in the cycle


I don't know why they would do that though. If they are planning on offering schollies at all it is 100% of the time more beneficial to offer them earlier. By waiting all they are doing is allowing other possible contending schools to steal applicants away with their early scholarships. That would make zero sense.

nucky thompson
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby nucky thompson » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:02 pm

Coltsfan, very envious of your 177, but you're no different to iu-b than a 167 or 166. You help LSAT median, while hurt gpa median. Your scholly offer is reflective of that. This tells me iu-b is confident in maintaining the 166 median this year. They are targeting LSAT of 166/167 (making it more likely the Applicant will attend because it is not yet high enough for addmittance at a school where job prospects would justify sticker over full) with a high gpa.

In addition iu-b has no gpa floor. So they can admit a 2.9 166 with no scholarship - who else is accepting this applicant??? They will then offset his gpa with a 155 4.0 oos student with no scholarship (also getting them more money).

Basically iu-b plays the us news admissions game - but you guys are not accounting forthe fact that it is only about the median, not how they achieve the median.

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Gail
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby Gail » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:04 pm

nucky thompson wrote:Gail - to be fair, it seems you arrived at a conclusion (iu not maintaining medians) and then tried to explain why by making up numbers. Iu has given out fully schollys to people this cycle, but only to those above both medians (with high likelihood of matriculation, it seems -- where else would a 166, 3.8x go over a full ride?) - many other splitters, like the 3.1 167 Iowaalum user will probably be accepted and offered minimal scholly. Same goes for similarly numbered splitters --- where else would they go? Under 168 with a very mediocre gpa? Many of these applicants will likely matriculated.

So far, we have the deferred students form last year (assumed to be highly qualified # wise), we also have however many 3.8+ iu undergrads that have been admitted without lasts. Also, it is reasonable to assume the more selective full scholarships being given out likely will have a high yield.

Then on top of that, you add splitters like Iowa alum with low gpas that will likely have fairly high matriculation because, higher ranked schools can still fill classes with same or better LSAT without compromising gpa.


Basically, it seems you want to believe iu is fucking everything up because idk, you seem bitter. Maybe you're hopping they end up screwed so your 166 will look more attractive - but again, I trust admissions departments, especially the one at iu-b (clearly, they understand the us news game) have their own best interests in mind.


tl;dr: their medians will likely stay the same.


On numbers:

I'm only making up numbers in the sense of an estimate. I saw on the TLS article that the class size ranges in the 200's. I saw on LSN that the scholarship offers tended to be 165 and above so I guessed at 166 was the lowest defer. The number of defers is a complete guess. You're right about that.

On LSN, I only see two people given full rides, both of whom will not attend. One URM with an EA at Texas. One with a 169 with a better deal from UMN, a good scholarship from Texas, 45k from Michigan, and acceptances into the rest of the T14. Somehow I don't expect IUB is in the top 5 choices for that person. From what I can see, they're 0 for 2 on this years big scholarship. Yield of 0%

And a 166 3.8 has better options than IUB even at full ride. Michigan and Vanderbilt have both accepted 166/3.8s I would say both are a better option even at sticker. Splitters are getting 30k across the board. 177, 30k, auto-withdraw. Can you blame him? 174/3.5, 30k

As for the number of defers, how many do you have? If its like 100, that's great and no danger - assuming a class size of not much more than 200. If its more realistically like 20, then all I have to say is that I'd be worried if I were administrator.

And the 3.8s are all good. You might be right about that. How many could those be though? I don't think that tehy count for LSAT medians, but even so, it just seems like they're trying to do what Illinois tried last year. The thing is that Illinois is a better school though, it has better placement numbers and it can probably survive one year at a median of 163/3.71. Do you think that IUB will be able to solidify itself if that happens to them though? I think it places them in TT, just my opinion though.


And Tommy, my point was about NLJ250, I don't know anything more about employment than that because that is how law schools play this game. But isn't biglaw the only important thing? If you're taking on 120k, how else do you expect to pay that off?


On bitterness. I'm bitter by nature. I don't know why. Personality flaw. Didn't get any hugs as a kid or something. But I haven't been accepted or denied by IUB yet. I do identify with others who would have been given fully scholarships last year had they only been born on the arbitrary date of 1988 instead, however. That isn't bitterness so much as it is just so.. Typical.



In all, you're right. It is too early to tell what will happen. Maybe they're right and I'm wrong, maybe they're backing off of last year's strategy, maybe the typical Michigan admit will jump ship for the second best school in the smallest state west of the Appalachia. Who knows? The good thing is that we'll be able to come back to this and see the results.

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Gail
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby Gail » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:06 pm

Wow I say 'though' a lot

nucky thompson
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby nucky thompson » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:14 pm

RemembEr pless specifically made the program because the gpa/no lsat students do count?

You're right though, neither of us know anything to be certain - all speculation. Iu will accept a 2.0/166, 4.0/150 if it needs to, it is all Bout the medians, not objective quality of the class. Iu is just too us news smart for a median drop IMHO.

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mrmojojak
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby mrmojojak » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:41 pm

Gail wrote:
nucky thompson wrote:And a 166 3.8 has better options than IUB even at full ride. Michigan and Vanderbilt have both accepted 166/3.8s I would say both are a better option even at sticker.


I really hope I get to have these options and face a tough decision. But, at this moment, I don't see my current options being any better. My cycle is in my profile and I think I may be joining some waitlists soon. W&M and OSU place better, but certainly not like a T14. I'm very curious to look at the LSN graph when this cycle is all said and done.

iowalum
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby iowalum » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:41 pm

TommyK wrote:
iowalum wrote:Just got my new score - officially 167/3.1, not as high as I would like but still above the median. So hopefully it's not too late! Thoughts?


Congrats! I think you're in, but probably with $10k/year based on recent data points. Would you consider attending paying 3/4 of tuition?


Well, I am in-state, so assuming it would still be 10K then yes!! I'm pretty limited as far as location, so IU-B is my goal :) Hopefully you're right and I'll see you in the fall!

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mrmojojak
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby mrmojojak » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:48 pm

iowalum wrote:Well, I am in-state, so assuming it would still be 10K then yes!! I'm pretty limited as far as location, so IU-B is my goal :) Hopefully you're right and I'll see you in the fall!


I think you'll get it. Good luck!

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TommyK
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby TommyK » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:09 pm

Gail wrote:And Tommy, my point was about NLJ250, I don't know anything more about employment than that because that is how law schools play this game. But isn't biglaw the only important thing? If you're taking on 120k, how else do you expect to pay that off?


I think to some people, it is. Not for me though. I think NLJ250 is a useful indicator, but like any metric focusing on it while ignoring everything else makes it lose some of the value.

Even if UMN = 12% NLJ250 employment and IUB = 6% NLJ250 employment, which seem like reasonable assumptions, I don't see this as a substantial difference. But if you're biglaw or bust, I suppose it would be. So... agree to disagree? FWIW, NLJ250 aren't the only jobs that pay 100k+, and not all NLJ250 jobs pay 160k+. But, tbh, I wouldn't be attending IUB without the cash so we're not really arguing anything of substance, but work is slow today so I'm happy to quibble.

iowalum
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby iowalum » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:12 pm

TommyK wrote:
Gail wrote:And Tommy, my point was about NLJ250, I don't know anything more about employment than that because that is how law schools play this game. But isn't biglaw the only important thing? If you're taking on 120k, how else do you expect to pay that off?


I think to some people, it is. Not for me though. I think NLJ250 is a useful indicator, but like any metric focusing on it while ignoring everything else makes it lose some of the value.

Even if UMN = 12% NLJ250 employment and IUB = 6% NLJ250 employment, which seem like reasonable assumptions, I don't see this as a substantial difference. But if you're biglaw or bust, I suppose it would be. So... agree to disagree? FWIW, NLJ250 aren't the only jobs that pay 100k+, and not all NLJ250 jobs pay 160k+. But, tbh, I wouldn't be attending IUB without the cash so we're not really arguing anything of substance, but work is slow today so I'm happy to quibble.


I agree, biglaw is not my focus. I understand those rankings are important, but I'm of the school that who you know is more important than some of these other factors, and seeing as I am planning on living in this area for the foreseeable future and I have some pretty good connections, I'm not worried about taking IU-B at half scholly. Agreed that IU-B at sticker is silly, but hopefully that won't be the case, and biglaw isn't everything.

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TommyK
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby TommyK » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:20 pm

iowalum wrote:I agree, biglaw is not my focus. I understand those rankings are important, but I'm of the school that who you know is more important than some of these other factors, and seeing as I am planning on living in this area for the foreseeable future and I have some pretty good connections, I'm not worried about taking IU-B at half scholly. Agreed that IU-B at sticker is silly, but hopefully that won't be the case, and biglaw isn't everything.


As an Indiana resident, tuition isn't that bad, but I think the IS schollies are smaller from what I read on earlier pages - in the range of 15k spread out over three years. Still, would bring tuition down to about $22k, so you could graduate with around 90k debt... not quite enviable, but a better position than many.

iowalum
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby iowalum » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:23 pm

TommyK wrote:
iowalum wrote:I agree, biglaw is not my focus. I understand those rankings are important, but I'm of the school that who you know is more important than some of these other factors, and seeing as I am planning on living in this area for the foreseeable future and I have some pretty good connections, I'm not worried about taking IU-B at half scholly. Agreed that IU-B at sticker is silly, but hopefully that won't be the case, and biglaw isn't everything.


As an Indiana resident, tuition isn't that bad, but I think the IS schollies are smaller from what I read on earlier pages - in the range of 15k spread out over three years. Still, would bring tuition down to about $22k, so you could graduate with around 90k debt... not quite enviable, but a better position than many.


Yeah, I'm not sure what exactly will happen. Because I applied last year as OOS then moved here I was told I might still be considered as OOS then have to change it once I'm admitted (if that happens), so maybe I'll get the OOS scholly anyway :). I haven't found anyone else with this situation so idk exactly how it will work.

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7ate9
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby 7ate9 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:20 pm

mrmojojak wrote:Scratch that... I missed:

(Admit Packet from Dean Motley to follow by USPS.)


I guess it could just be a little slow due to the holidays.


I too saw that hidden little note...I suppose my next week, I'll ring them and inquire.

I can not imagine holiday delays for two weeks at this point.

confusedlaw
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby confusedlaw » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:59 pm

was offered quick turnaround adn scholarship consideration stil havent heard anything 3.7 167

iowalum
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Re: IU - Bloomington Class of 2015

Postby iowalum » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:20 pm

How long did it take most of you to get an email acknowledging receipt of your app?




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