University of Minnesota applicants 2011-12 cycle (c/o 2015) Forum

[sach1282]

Waitlisted today.

[Jerwinf1]

Maybe they really care if it seems like you want them specifically? Not sure what happened here given GPA and LSAT both above their 75%.

[crumpetsandtea]

I feel like GPA better exemplifies your work effort

Not necessarily. Because of people's overall obsession with perfection/excellence/being at the top, many people are discouraged by challenging classes, especially ones that often deal with math or science. I would not be surprised if many people shy away from these classes with the main reason that it would be a GPA kill. If people can't get As in a class, often their solution is to skip that class entirely and go for the class that WILL get them an A regardless of said class's intrinsic learning value. Standardized tests don't just reward intelligence, but reward people who step out of their comfort zone and are not afraid of a challenge.

Also, some people with low GPAs have extenuating circumstances (ie family/illness/etc) that inhibit their ability to perform academically. Not to mention studying for the LSAT itself is sometimes proof of the ability to dedicate yourself and work hard.

[BKCentral]

Just look at last year's LSN http://minnesota.lawschoolnumbers.com/s ... Cycle=1112

It's all YP. Surprised by the extent to which they YP though, compared to other schools.

[fltanglab]

I feel like GPA better exemplifies your work effort

Not necessarily. Because of people's overall obsession with perfection/excellence/being at the top, many people are discouraged by challenging classes, especially ones that often deal with math or science. I would not be surprised if many people shy away from these classes with the main reason that it would be a GPA kill. If people can't get As in a class, often their solution is to skip that class entirely and go for the class that WILL get them an A regardless of said class's intrinsic learning value. Standardized tests don't just reward intelligence, but reward people who step out of their comfort zone and are not afraid of a challenge.

Also, some people with low GPAs have extenuating circumstances (ie family/illness/etc) that inhibit their ability to perform academically. Not to mention studying for the LSAT itself is sometimes proof of the ability to dedicate yourself and work hard.

Or their GPA has a lot of hard science courses bringing it down and the LSAT is a much better indicator of how they'll do in law school.

[MidwestJosh]

Just look at last year's LSN http://minnesota.lawschoolnumbers.com/s ... Cycle=1112

It's all YP. Surprised by the extent to which they YP though, compared to other schools.

A reminder to future applicants: be sure to read directions for your applications. Minnesota requests that you address, "Why Minnesota?" in your personal statement, and provides you a 5 page limit to do so.

[miamiheat]

Anyone know how Minnesota is with scholarships especially after this first round of admissions? Have the scholarship letter in my mailings so I guess that means I'll get some money?

[BKCentral]

Just look at last year's LSN http://minnesota.lawschoolnumbers.com/s ... Cycle=1112

It's all YP. Surprised by the extent to which they YP though, compared to other schools.

A reminder to future applicants: be sure to read directions for your applications. Minnesota requests that you address, "Why Minnesota?" in your personal statement, and provides you a 5 page limit to do so.

Are you saying that's why all these people with high #s were waitlisted instead of admited/denied, despite many people with lower #s being accepted? I'm sure it's possible for some, but I bet that applies to most on both sides (meaning it's probably a mixed bag of who did it/didn't do it on both sides).

[shredderrrrrr]

I feel like GPA better exemplifies your work effort

Not necessarily. Because of people's overall obsession with perfection/excellence/being at the top, many people are discouraged by challenging classes, especially ones that often deal with math or science. I would not be surprised if many people shy away from these classes with the main reason that it would be a GPA kill. If people can't get As in a class, often their solution is to skip that class entirely and go for the class that WILL get them an A regardless of said class's intrinsic learning value. Standardized tests don't just reward intelligence, but reward people who step out of their comfort zone and are not afraid of a challenge.

I don't know about this. I put in a ton of work for the LSAT, and for the life of me, I just couldn't improve RC. RC was always my achilles heel and no matter what strategy I tried, I just couldn't get less than -5 in almost every section I did, as where LG I understood almost instantly, and never got more than -1 wrong (including -0 on the actual test). My friend is the complete opposite. Killed RC and hated LG. Some parts of standardized testing just work better for some people, but I did worse than my friend just beacuse there are 4-5 more RC questions on the test than LG. Did he study harder than me? No. In fact, I think I put in a lot more work than he did, over a longer period of time. Perhaps he's a quicker thinker or reader or whatever, but that's not exactly "effort", it's a skill that he has more of than me (perhaps throughout his development as a child or teenager or whatever? I don't know). Not bitching about it, that's life. Some people are just naturally better at things. But if effort is to be truly measured, I don't think the LSAT (or standardized testing in general really) is the be-all end-all. I mean, there has to be a way to standardize, because then people will just take basket-weaving or whatever, but my experience tells me the LSAT is most certainly not directly correlated with effort. There was definitely a ceiling to my performance, and the fact that some people can take a diagnostic test and score 170+ tells me something outside of "stepping outside of your comfort zone and not being afraid of a challenge" is at play.

I'm gonna second this. I never said GPA definitively exemplifies effort...I just said that I feel it better exemplifies it than the LSAT.

There is no doubt that some people can get good GPA's without working extremely hard, but no matter what major you are, you have to put in consistent effort over 4 years to get mostly A's. Even easy courses have demands in order to get an A. You can be extremely smart and talented and will not have a good GPA if you don't at least work somewhat hard throughout your UG career.

The LSAT, on the other hand, requires studying and dedication as well, but I believe natural intelligence goes a lot further in this respect. I, for instance, took a practice course, 30 practice tests, worked my way through all the Bibles and Manhattan guides, and took a total of one year to prepare. Starting from a 152 diagnostic, the highest score I ever got was 167 with my actual score (second attempt) being 166. Like the previous poster, I could not improve RC no matter what I did. My modest score, therefore, was not the result of lack of effort, but rather lack of intelligence. I know this is anecdotal, but I think it serves to show that some people who work hard can hit a limit with how well they can do on the LSAT. I don't think the same is true for GPAs. Anyone who works hard enough in UG will likely be able to get good grades.

All I'm saying is that you guys misunderstood my initial post. I don't think that good GPAs necessitate effort, but rather that good GPAs are more indicative of hard work than a good LSAT score. Both require effort in order to be successful, but effort in regards to the LSAT can largely be trumped by innate intelligence.

[shredderrrrrr]

Man, I am surprised with all the YP. Yikes. Hopefully none of you guys had your heart set on Minnesota. Congrats to everyone accepted!

[msblaw89]

Anyone know how Minnesota is with scholarships especially after this first round of admissions? Have the scholarship letter in my mailings so I guess that means I'll get some money?

I have the same mailing. I would bet money it means an offer

[MidwestJosh]

Just look at last year's LSN http://minnesota.lawschoolnumbers.com/s ... Cycle=1112

It's all YP. Surprised by the extent to which they YP though, compared to other schools.

A reminder to future applicants: be sure to read directions for your applications. Minnesota requests that you address, "Why Minnesota?" in your personal statement, and provides you a 5 page limit to do so.

Are you saying that's why all these people with high #s were waitlisted instead of admited/denied, despite many people with lower #s being accepted? I'm sure it's possible for some, but I bet that applies to most on both sides (meaning it's probably a mixed bag of who did it/didn't do it on both sides).

I'm not taking any official position for UMN or making any statement as to why anyone on this thread did or didn't get it.

What I will say, speaking from a lot of experience with law school admissions, is that YP only happens when there isn't a discernible sincerity regarding the interest in that particular school.

[MidwestJosh]

I'll also mention that YP is always in the form of wait list (for which a legit LOCI/visit can often overcome). Rejections should never be construed as YP.

[BKCentral]

Just look at last year's LSN http://minnesota.lawschoolnumbers.com/s ... Cycle=1112

It's all YP. Surprised by the extent to which they YP though, compared to other schools.

A reminder to future applicants: be sure to read directions for your applications. Minnesota requests that you address, "Why Minnesota?" in your personal statement, and provides you a 5 page limit to do so.

Are you saying that's why all these people with high #s were waitlisted instead of admited/denied, despite many people with lower #s being accepted? I'm sure it's possible for some, but I bet that applies to most on both sides (meaning it's probably a mixed bag of who did it/didn't do it on both sides).

I'm not taking any official position for UMN or making any statement as to why anyone on this thread did or didn't get it.

What I will say, speaking from a lot of experience with law school admissions, is that YP only happens when there isn't a discernible sincerity regarding the interest in that particular school.

Yeah, I guess that could make sense if that's how UMN prides itself. Would possibly explain the inexplicably high # of YP compared with many other schools.

[MidwestJosh]

Would possibly explain the inexplicably high # of YP compared with many other schools.

Not sure that's a fair statement. In fact, I don't believe for a second that it is.

[MidwestJosh]

You have to keep in mind that it's really only schools inside the top 50 that are YPing.

[BKCentral]

Would possibly explain the inexplicably high # of YP compared with many other schools.

Not sure that's a fair statement. In fact, I don't believe for a second that it is.

Sorry let me clarify, according to LSN in previous years. I suppose I don't know more than anything other than that, but UMN applicants (albeit only those who post on LSN) report an extremely high # of YP (waitlists with very high stats) compared to other schools with similar rankings. So you might be right in that I truly don't know the whole story, only what people reported in previous years, which shows a high # of YP compared to other schools.

[MidwestJosh]

Sorry let me clarify, according to LSN in previous years. I suppose I don't know more than anything other than that, but UMN applicants (albeit only those who post on LSN) report an extremely high # of YP (waitlists with very high stats) compared to other schools with similar rankings. So you might be right in that I truly don't know the whole story, only what people reported in previous years, which shows a high # of YP compared to other schools.

I'd think about it this way: LSN is a self selecting forum. Minnesota is just outside the T14. Applicants with their heart set on T14 are more likely to use LSN than non T14 applicants. Minnesota and its peers (especially those located in larger urban areas, such as BU) are more likely to receive insincere apps from those individuals than other schools. Those applicants are also more likely to update/use LSN.

[BKCentral]

You have to keep in mind that it's really only schools inside the top 50 that are YPing.

Here are several non-t-14 schools that might receive insincere applicants and last year's reported A/W/D.

http://gw.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/10 ... Cycle=1112
http://bc.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/10 ... Cycle=1112
http://washu.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats ... Cycle=1112
http://indiana.lawschoolnumbers.com/sta ... Cycle=1112

And then look at UMN:

http://minnesota.lawschoolnumbers.com/s ... Cycle=1112

I'm not saying I have any idea the reasoning behind it (in fact, your post about the "personalized" personal statement seems like it could have some true merit), but that's where my statement regarding the "inexplicably high" amount of YP compared to similar schools comes from.

[MidwestJosh]

I don't think BC, Indiana or WUSTL belong on that list. BC and Indiana are not peer schools (especially Indiana) WUSTL is, but it doesn't get the number of apps Minnesota/BU do.

And yes - i know for a fact the Minnesota thing is important.

[shredderrrrrr]

Sorry let me clarify, according to LSN in previous years. I suppose I don't know more than anything other than that, but UMN applicants (albeit only those who post on LSN) report an extremely high # of YP (waitlists with very high stats) compared to other schools with similar rankings. So you might be right in that I truly don't know the whole story, only what people reported in previous years, which shows a high # of YP compared to other schools.

I'd think about it this way: LSN is a self selecting forum. Minnesota is just outside the T14. Applicants with their heart set on T14 are more likely to use LSN than non T14 applicants. Minnesota and its peers (especially those located in larger urban areas, such as BU) are more likely to receive insincere apps from those individuals than other schools. Those applicants are also more likely to update/use LSN.

He's just saying that it appears Minnesota YPs more than many other schools, not that it is the worst of any school. While LSN isn't always the best source of reliable data, it can indicate trends.

[BKCentral]

I don't think BC, Indiana or WUSTL belong on that list. BC and Indiana are not peer schools. WUSTL is, but it doesn't get the number of apps Minnesota/BU do.

And yes - i know for a fact the Minnesota thing is important.

I was merely meaning similarly ranked schools. But every school has its own way of doing things. But thanks for the interesting idea about the personal statement. I hadn't thought of that.

[MidwestJosh]

He's just saying that it appears Minnesota YPs more than many other schools, not that it is the worst of any school. While LSN isn't always the best source of reliable data, it can indicate trends.

Yup. I'm just saying "more than" doesn't account for the variables - that's all.

[MidwestJosh]

I don't think BC, Indiana or WUSTL belong on that list. BC and Indiana are not peer schools. WUSTL is, but it doesn't get the number of apps Minnesota/BU do.

And yes - i know for a fact the Minnesota thing is important.

I was merely meaning similarly ranked schools. But every school has its own way of doing things. But thanks for the interesting idea about the personal statement. I hadn't thought of that.

Quite frankly, Indiana has no place in the ranking it has. It's only recently been ranked there, largely due to some interesting admissions and reporting practices. BC isn't similarly ranked consistently. It's been all over the place. Even GWU has been towards 30 in just the past few years. Minnesota is consistent in its rank.

[MidwestJosh]

btw i'm not really trying to argue anything. just avoiding studying for finals.