Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle) Forum

[PopTorts13]

...shit

[tempur_three]

...shit

?

[PopTorts13]

...shit

?

My letters of rec include:
1 professor.
1 manager at work (principal, because I am an educator).
1 successful attorney who has has known me since I was a child.

I thought that having a diverse group of people writing in support of me would be positive, but I neglected an additional LOR from a second professor. To add insult to injury, I applied in November and we all know how long it would take for a professor to write one, LSAC to process it, and for Yale to add it to the file.

I read a previous post from Asha that dated back about a year saying that if we had been removed from an academic setting for a couple of years we could submit letters from supervisors and the such.

Just a deflating thing to read now that it is Feb 1st and I put so much time in to my application, 6 years. Knowing that the LORs were the first thing to be looked at and I missed the mark on that...dang. To further know that I am someone that earned A's and only has a single letter from a professor makes her/them suspicious...

Just sad now, and...well...like I said, deflated.

[Schola]

...shit

?

My letters of rec include:
1 professor.
1 manager at work (principal, because I am an educator).
1 successful attorney who has has known me since I was a child.

I thought that having a diverse group of people writing in support of me would be positive, but I neglected an additional LOR from a second professor. To add insult to injury, I applied in November and we all know how long it would take for a professor to write one, LSAC to process it, and for Yale to add it to the file.

I read a previous post from Asha that dated back about a year saying that if we had been removed from an academic setting for a couple of years we could submit letters from supervisors and the such.

Just a deflating thing to read now that it is Feb 1st and I put so much time in to my application, 6 years. Knowing that the LORs were the first thing to be looked at and I missed the mark on that...dang. To further know that I am someone that earned A's and only has a single letter from a professor makes her/them suspicious...

Just sad now, and...well...like I said, deflated.

First off, I would say that you are an outlier. She has to read 2-3k applications, so she can't speak to every single circumstance. If someone has been out of an academic setting for 6 years and only has 1 academic rec, that is obviously very different from someone graduating this May. You've grown personally, professionally, intellectually, etc., profs have ahd LOTS of other students and probably don't remember that much about you unless you went to their offices every day, etc.

Second, you might as well get another rec. It's likely not going to help you this late in the game w/ the faculty review. But if you get a 10 or 11 and then it gets kicked back to Asha for another read through, it might help.

Third, at least you didn't get called out for a glib comment at the end of her blog post! (Although, since correlation is "the degree to which two or more attributes or measurements on the same group of elements show a tendency to vary together," I would still insist that there is some--albeit not perfect--correlation between acceptance date auto-admit. In order for there to be 'no correlation' it would have to be the case that, on average, it takes NO more time to get accepted via faculty review than via auto admit. That it might take no more time for a few faculty review cases does not mean there is no correlation, just as the fact that some people who are 5'6'' are heavier than some people who are 6'6'' does not mean that there is no correlation between height and weight)

[sailboat]

...shit

?

My letters of rec include:
1 professor.
1 manager at work (principal, because I am an educator).
1 successful attorney who has has known me since I was a child.

I thought that having a diverse group of people writing in support of me would be positive, but I neglected an additional LOR from a second professor. To add insult to injury, I applied in November and we all know how long it would take for a professor to write one, LSAC to process it, and for Yale to add it to the file.

I read a previous post from Asha that dated back about a year saying that if we had been removed from an academic setting for a couple of years we could submit letters from supervisors and the such.

Just a deflating thing to read now that it is Feb 1st and I put so much time in to my application, 6 years. Knowing that the LORs were the first thing to be looked at and I missed the mark on that...dang. To further know that I am someone that earned A's and only has a single letter from a professor makes her/them suspicious...

Just sad now, and...well...like I said, deflated.

First off, I would say that you are an outlier. She has to read 2-3k applications, so she can't speak to every single circumstance. If someone has been out of an academic setting for 6 years and only has 1 academic rec, that is obviously very different from someone graduating this May. You've grown personally, professionally, intellectually, etc., profs have ahd LOTS of other students and probably don't remember that much about you unless you went to their offices every day, etc.

Second, you might as well get another rec. It's likely not going to help you this late in the game w/ the faculty review. But if you get a 10 or 11 and then it gets kicked back to Asha for another read through, it might help.

A few older blog posts that might make you feel a bit better -

I often find that students who wait until they are out of school for a few years sometimes have difficulty getting detailed recommendations from professors, or will submit employer recommendations instead

http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... later.aspx

Some of you may have been out of school for a while and did not have an undergraduate credential service like C.L. If you really don't have someone who can write a strong academic reference for you, the next best thing is to get a work reference that speaks to the kinds of things I mentioned above: writing, analytical ability, logical reasoning (those sound weirdly familiar from another part of your application...). The closer this is to the legal world, the better (e.g., a judge or lawyer), but other employers can give the same kinds of information.

http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... -this.aspx

(Of course, these blog posts are not new...)

I wouldn't send an additional LOR unless it's going to be from a faculty member and you know it'll be great, and also specific.

Also, if it's any comfort, Yale is somewhat unusual when it comes to this; most other law schools aren't as adamant (though they still generally seem to prefer faculty to work, when possible).

[whenwin]

Third, at least you didn't get called out for a glib comment at the end of her blog post! (Although, since correlation is "the degree to which two or more attributes or measurements on the same group of elements show a tendency to vary together," I would still insist that there is some--albeit not perfect--correlation between acceptance date auto-admit. In order for there to be 'no correlation' it would have to be the case that, on average, it takes NO more time to get accepted via faculty review than via auto admit. That it might take no more time for a few faculty review cases does not mean there is no correlation, just as the fact that some people who are 5'6'' are heavier than some people who are 6'6'' does not mean that there is no correlation between height and weight)

LOL I look forward to Asha's response to this in her next blog post.

[Schola]

Third, at least you didn't get called out for a glib comment at the end of her blog post! (Although, since correlation is "the degree to which two or more attributes or measurements on the same group of elements show a tendency to vary together," I would still insist that there is some--albeit not perfect--correlation between acceptance date auto-admit. In order for there to be 'no correlation' it would have to be the case that, on average, it takes NO more time to get accepted via faculty review than via auto admit. That it might take no more time for a few faculty review cases does not mean there is no correlation, just as the fact that some people who are 5'6'' are heavier than some people who are 6'6'' does not mean that there is no correlation between height and weight)

LOL I look forward to Asha's response to this in her next blog post.

Yes, I too hope that the YLS Admissions blog devolves into a continuous back and forth with TLSers over pedantic, ultimately inconsequential points!

Perhaps we could make the argument more meta by bring Wittgenstein or Derrida into it.

[spek]

Perhaps we could make the argument more meta by bring Wittgenstein or Derrida into it.

Oh God, please not Derrida!

I'm ready to be done with this cycle. Please let some more decisions trickle out soon YLS!

[Parmenides]

Okay, Wittgenstein, Tractatus, Ladder analogy...
The function of a dialogue between 203 and TLS is less the information contained in the text than the benefit derived by reading and thinking about the material, elevating oneself to a higher understanding.
Also something about a chain of facts being the world.

[Shooter]

Someone submits one academic letter of recommendation and the only reasonable conclusion Dean Asha can draw is that he/she must suffer from a crippling social defect? Presumptuous much?

[thederangedwang]

Someone submits one academic letter of recommendation and the only reasonable conclusion Dean Asha can draw is that he/she must suffer from a crippling social defect? Presumptuous much?

where does she say this

[fingerscrossedxx]

That damn blog post has me hunting down my professors from two years ago. Oh Asha, all for a miniscule chance that you'll let me in!


ETA: It's interesting that the blogs she links to is about how important it is to have academic references if you're out of school for some time. This new one makes it seem you're crazy to even apply to Yale if you don't have two in the bag. Oh well

[Elston Gunn]

I also sent four. I hope the letters are as positive as their authors were enthusiastic about writing them.

+1

I sent four...and am in. It's clearly not a deal-breaker. (They were all from profs though.)

[tempur_three]

Someone submits one academic letter of recommendation and the only reasonable conclusion Dean Asha can draw is that he/she must suffer from a crippling social defect? Presumptuous much?

where does she say this

I think Shooter means paragraph 7 (depending on how one counts paragraphs):

"(though to be honest, it's even more of a red flag if you have a straight-A average and couldn't manage to come up with two faculty references...it makes me wonder whether you are hiding something, like a serious personality defect or crippling social disorder)."

Poptorts, I honestly think you are OK. You seem to be a different candidate. These posts are often meant for the straight-out-of-undergrad applicant. Don't stress man! I agree that it would be nice if Asha qualified her post to include people who were out of school for more than x+ years, but she did not, so we have to assume things. I know of a few YLS alums that served in the military for quite some time before they applied to law school--I think they were "forgiven" for not being able to scrounge up that academic letter of recommendation. In addition, PopTorts, since you have some type of a job, the assumption is that you probably don't have a crippling social disorder (for example, exceptions could be if you put "human experiment" as your job title, a big pharma company/CRO as your employer, and your LOR was from one of the researchers, and as a description you wrote, "have a crippling social disorder but am a human guinea pig to test out new and exciting drug developments that might potentially cure my disorder").

If I may add another opinion: I would gamble that YLS scrutinizes Academic LORs more than other law schools partly because they take pride in being one of the lone institutions that emphasize academic rigor (as opposed to black letter law) in their teaching of law.

Does anyone know if all admits (not including those off the waitlist) are called or are letters sent out?

[brown822015]

Someone submits one academic letter of recommendation and the only reasonable conclusion Dean Asha can draw is that he/she must suffer from a crippling social defect? Presumptuous much?

where does she say this

I think Shooter means paragraph 7 (depending on how one counts paragraphs):

"(though to be honest, it's even more of a red flag if you have a straight-A average and couldn't manage to come up with two faculty references...it makes me wonder whether you are hiding something, like a serious personality defect or crippling social disorder)."

Poptorts, I honestly think you are OK. You seem to be a different candidate. These posts are often meant for the straight-out-of-undergrad applicant. Don't stress man! I agree that it would be nice if Asha qualified her post to include people who were out of school for more than x+ years, but she did not, so we have to assume things. I know of a few YLS alums that served in the military for quite some time before they applied to law school--I think they were "forgiven" for not being able to scrounge up that academic letter of recommendation. In addition, PopTorts, since you have some type of a job, the assumption is that you probably don't have a crippling social disorder (for example, exceptions could be if you put "human experiment" as your job title, a big pharma company/CRO as your employer, and your LOR was from one of the researchers, and as a description you wrote, "have a crippling social disorder but am a human guinea pig to test out new and exciting drug developments that might potentially cure my disorder").

If I may add another opinion: I would gamble that YLS scrutinizes Academic LORs more than other law schools partly because they take pride in being one of the lone institutions that emphasize academic rigor (as opposed to black letter law) in their teaching of law.

Does anyone know if all admits (not including those off the waitlist) are called or are letters sent out?

I have to say I disagree with you. Considering 80% of the entering class is not straight out of undergrad (in fact, 35% have been out for at least two years), it is hard for me to imagine that Asha is speaking only to a mere 20% of applicants. I would argue that Asha is speaking to the vast majority of prospective applicants and is attempting to make clear how vital two academic recommendations truly are. I don't think YLS admissions has ever been murky in its desire to have at least two academic references and I believe this blog post is a response to YLS' desires being ignored. Yale doesn't seem to forgive lackluster recommendations because one has been out of undergrad for a few years. If you truly were so forgetable that a professor from a few years back couldn't come up with a decent recommendation for you, then maybe Yale isn't the place to be. Though this may come off as a bit harsh, it seems to be exactly what Asha is saying.

[MumofCad]

All this talk of writing in Derrida is making me feel like they have made a mistake admitting me. Geez.

Funny too because a friend that graduated a few years back recently warned me that EVERYONE at Yale at some point in their first semester is sure that they are the one case in which the admissions office has totally screwed up. I guess I should just prepare now. Oh well, its actually a fairly common feeling for me. When you all get in, please don't make me feel stupid at ASW with your philosophical talk. It will force me to drink even more and I'm a lightweight.

More germane to the topic at hand, don't worry too much now about your LORs. If you can get another prof one that is really strong - great! I think being 6 years out feels like a special circumstance to me.

[MikeTheWilliams]

All this talk of writing in Derrida is making me feel like they have made a mistake admitting me. Geez.

Funny too because a friend that graduated a few years back recently warned me that EVERYONE at Yale at some point in their first semester is sure that they are the one case in which the admissions office has totally screwed up. I guess I should just prepare now. Oh well, its actually a fairly common feeling for me. When you all get in, please don't make me feel stupid at ASW with your philosophical talk. It will force me to drink even more and I'm a lightweight.

More germane to the topic at hand, don't worry too much now about your LORs. If you can get another prof one that is really strong - great! I think being 6 years out feels like a special circumstance to me.

You used the word "germane". You'll be fine

[thederangedwang]

Someone submits one academic letter of recommendation and the only reasonable conclusion Dean Asha can draw is that he/she must suffer from a crippling social defect? Presumptuous much?

where does she say this

I think Shooter means paragraph 7 (depending on how one counts paragraphs):

"(though to be honest, it's even more of a red flag if you have a straight-A average and couldn't manage to come up with two faculty references...it makes me wonder whether you are hiding something, like a serious personality defect or crippling social disorder)."

Asha is clearly joking and being sarcastic

[iamrobk]

Sigh, I just found out yesterday that my roommates father is a professor at Yale. I should have asked him to get me accepted.
(Yeah, this doesn't add anything to the discussion here at all)

[Schola]

All this talk of writing in Derrida is making me feel like they have made a mistake admitting me. Geez.

Funny too because a friend that graduated a few years back recently warned me that EVERYONE at Yale at some point in their first semester is sure that they are the one case in which the admissions office has totally screwed up. I guess I should just prepare now. Oh well, its actually a fairly common feeling for me. When you all get in, please don't make me feel stupid at ASW with your philosophical talk. It will force me to drink even more and I'm a lightweight.

More germane to the topic at hand, don't worry too much now about your LORs. If you can get another prof one that is really strong - great! I think being 6 years out feels like a special circumstance to me.

Anyone can "talk of Derrida," even me! That doesn't mean we know what we're talking about.

[arewehavingfunyet]

Funny too because a friend that graduated a few years back recently warned me that EVERYONE at Yale at some point in their first semester is sure that they are the one case in which the admissions office has totally screwed up.

Who needs to wait until the first semester...

[JoeMo]

All this talk of writing in Derrida is making me feel like they have made a mistake admitting me. Geez.

Funny too because a friend that graduated a few years back recently warned me that EVERYONE at Yale at some point in their first semester is sure that they are the one case in which the admissions office has totally screwed up. I guess I should just prepare now. Oh well, its actually a fairly common feeling for me. When you all get in, please don't make me feel stupid at ASW with your philosophical talk. It will force me to drink even more and I'm a lightweight.

More germane to the topic at hand, don't worry too much now about your LORs. If you can get another prof one that is really strong - great! I think being 6 years out feels like a special circumstance to me.

You used the word "germane". You'll be fine

Right? that's what I said.

[cogitoergosum]

Okay, Wittgenstein, Tractatus, Ladder analogy...
The function of a dialogue between 203 and TLS is less the information contained in the text than the benefit derived by reading and thinking about the material, elevating oneself to a higher understanding.
Also something about a chain of facts being the world.

Only problem - if that is the ladder then we lose TLS when we throw the ladder away... oh no.

[tempur_three]

I have to say I disagree with you. Considering 80% of the entering class is not straight out of undergrad (in fact, 35% have been out for at least two years), it is hard for me to imagine that Asha is speaking only to a mere 20% of applicants. I would argue that Asha is speaking to the vast majority of prospective applicants and is attempting to make clear how vital two academic recommendations truly are. I don't think YLS admissions has ever been murky in its desire to have at least two academic references and I believe this blog post is a response to YLS' desires being ignored. Yale doesn't seem to forgive lackluster recommendations because one has been out of undergrad for a few years. If you truly were so forgetable that a professor from a few years back couldn't come up with a decent recommendation for you, then maybe Yale isn't the place to be. Though this may come off as a bit harsh, it seems to be exactly what Asha is saying.

OK, I agree the word choice was poorly formulated. What I meant by straight-out-of-undergrad was being not equal to poptorts situation. So to clarify I meant straight-or-up-to-two-years-out-of-undergrad. The one-year-out-of-undergrad is a joke, and I'm sure many continue fellowships (rhodes, marshall, fulbright, tfa, etc), pursue one-year graduate degrees, or do something school related (research). In those cases it would be bad not have at least two academic letters. For those who go into work (consulting/banking/volunteering), they probably don't get letters from employers since by the time they apply, it's october/november (or two/three months into their job).

Those who are out 2+ years--less than a majority of applicants--are also those to which exceptions most likely apply. I can't fathom a US marine/SEAL on tour for 7 years to be turned down by Yale because he didn't have the two academic letters; I can't see an M/B/B partner being turned down for lack of academic references; and I can't see a professional of any great achievement being dismissed by Yale for lack of the letters. So I don't think Asha is saying "if you are unmemorable as an undergrad, you are out." Many successful people were unremarkable undergraduates, and I think Yale would understand that of the 2+ candidates. Asha is going for the majority (fledgling future lawyers) who have had little time to show their full potential, and in my opinion those are the straight-or-up-to-two-years-out-of-undergrad applicants. I think this partly attests to their holistic process as well and why they are always able to select an incredible, non-cookie cutter class.

EDITED: Fixed quote.

[Doorkeeper]

Does anyone know if Yale wants additional recommendations to be sent through LSAC or sent directly to them?