Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

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kulshan
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby kulshan » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:20 pm

MumofCad wrote:I would think this is particularly important with Yale, which produces alot of academics. For those that have done supervised PhDs, you will know that your advisers and your relationship with them is very important to your success. Yale has a justifiable rep for producing academics, but Harvard and other top schools do as well. If you are considering that path (even vaguely), I'd highly recommend doing your leg work on making sure you are making the right choice. And that often means going way beyond what admissions material or websites will tell you. You can get good results and stumble into good spots without doing it, but you can also end up in not such great spots. It is 3 years of your life.


Totally.

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zabagabe
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby zabagabe » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:59 am

MumofCad wrote:As far as sitting in on classes, I wouldn't use that to make a decision. Visits can be very productive if you are looking to work with particular faculty as I was. You get a chance to meet with the professors in the field you want to work in and a much better picture of whether the offerings at the school and the resources devoted to it will fit with your agenda. Of course, if you don't have an agenda, that would not be particularly helpful. It all just depends on what you are personally looking to get out of law school when you are essentially choosing between really great schools. Just like the industry surveys they do where different people will have different opinions or in H being ranked in those over Y, but below Y in the USNews rankings. Depending on how you make your determinations about what is most important to consider you will get different results. It can be surprising.


Taking a break from work to say that I would caution against going to law school X specifically because you want to work with faculty member Y whose expertise is in field Z. It's not quite the same as with a Ph.D., and I've done work in both, so I'm familiar with the way you build faculty relationships in academic departments vs. legal faculties.

In Ph.D. world, you want faculty who know a ton about the topic you want to work on, because they have tons of cache with that field and not much outside it, and they'll give you fantastic training in Z field. This is the opposite in law school world, where most jobs/fellowships/clerkships you're applying to out of law school require little very detailed legal knowledge and law faculty have expertise and connections across many topics and industries. If you have three fantastic recommendations from top faculty who work in areas totally unrelated to yours, you will be far better off than the same recs from people who are substantially less well connected or reputed but who work in your field(s).** It's somewhat sad and speaks to the relatively unsubstantial nature of law schools relative to Ph.D. programs, but that's the way it is.

Considering that faculty go on leave, move institutions, have weird issues that make them not-good-recommendors, don't click with you for whatever random reason, etc., I really think picking a school on the basis of one or two faculty members is perilous relative to choosing based on the other criteria on your list.

I'm just one data point, but that's my two cents from experience in both worlds. Happy to talk more about this.

**There are occasional exceptions to this in very specialized fields like tax law, but even there, one fantastic rec from a tax person is sufficient.

MumofCad
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby MumofCad » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:23 am

zabagabe wrote:
MumofCad wrote:As far as sitting in on classes, I wouldn't use that to make a decision. Visits can be very productive if you are looking to work with particular faculty as I was. You get a chance to meet with the professors in the field you want to work in and a much better picture of whether the offerings at the school and the resources devoted to it will fit with your agenda. Of course, if you don't have an agenda, that would not be particularly helpful. It all just depends on what you are personally looking to get out of law school when you are essentially choosing between really great schools. Just like the industry surveys they do where different people will have different opinions or in H being ranked in those over Y, but below Y in the USNews rankings. Depending on how you make your determinations about what is most important to consider you will get different results. It can be surprising.


Taking a break from work to say that I would caution against going to law school X specifically because you want to work with faculty member Y whose expertise is in field Z. It's not quite the same as with a Ph.D., and I've done work in both, so I'm familiar with the way you build faculty relationships in academic departments vs. legal faculties.

In Ph.D. world, you want faculty who know a ton about the topic you want to work on, because they have tons of cache with that field and not much outside it, and they'll give you fantastic training in Z field. This is the opposite in law school world, where most jobs/fellowships/clerkships you're applying to out of law school require little very detailed legal knowledge and law faculty have expertise and connections across many topics and industries. If you have three fantastic recommendations from top faculty who work in areas totally unrelated to yours, you will be far better off than the same recs from people who are substantially less well connected or reputed but who work in your field(s).** It's somewhat sad and speaks to the relatively unsubstantial nature of law schools relative to Ph.D. programs, but that's the way it is.

Considering that faculty go on leave, move institutions, have weird issues that make them not-good-recommendors, don't click with you for whatever random reason, etc., I really think picking a school on the basis of one or two faculty members is perilous relative to choosing based on the other criteria on your list.

I'm just one data point, but that's my two cents from experience in both worlds. Happy to talk more about this.

**There are occasional exceptions to this in very specialized fields like tax law, but even there, one fantastic rec from a tax person is sufficient.


Thanks~ Yes I totally agree actually and have spoken with people about this. I should mention, I'm in a relatively small niche area of PI advocacy in which I share the opinion of a particular faculty member. There is also only 1 top law school with a developed program in said niche so that's why it was particularly pertinent to me. That was the point of the visit too - make sure more than just intellectually clicking that there were opportunities for me to get involved with some of the projects that had been funded by the school, that the funding was guaranteed for at least the next 3 years to run the programs, that the faculty who is the driving force behind the programs and the advocacy was not leaving/retiring soon, etc. Its very hard to tell from a website whether you will have the opportunities of the select few poster people they choose for promotional purposes.

Also, one thing I failed to mention is that an important consideration in a law school is the more broad opportunities they have available to students as well. Even if you think you know going in what you want to study, it may change. It seems a met an inordinate number of 1Ls at all the schools that really wanted to do litigation but hated CivPro and loved other topics and were having moments of anxiety about that. I figure most still end up in litigation based on salary numbers, but...it seems they will probably enjoy the other opportunities available to them while in law school. Something to think about.

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dot
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby dot » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:52 am

Congrats on the first four acceptances of TLS!

Hope to see you there next year... if you're good people :)

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LaCumparsita
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby LaCumparsita » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:45 am

If we're good people, you'll see us there next year? I'm sure a lot of good people don't get admitted. Or you could have meant that you have the uncanny ability of only seeing the good people who are admitted and decide to come. :P

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annyong
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby annyong » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:44 am

LaCumparsita wrote:If we're good people, you'll see us there next year? I'm sure a lot of good people don't get admitted. Or you could have meant that you have the uncanny ability of only seeing the good people who are admitted and decide to come. :P

I think he means he hopes he will see us there if we're good people - but maybe won't hope so much if we're all jerks :P

thederangedwang
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby thederangedwang » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:48 am

annyong wrote:
LaCumparsita wrote:If we're good people, you'll see us there next year? I'm sure a lot of good people don't get admitted. Or you could have meant that you have the uncanny ability of only seeing the good people who are admitted and decide to come. :P

I think he means he hopes he will see us there if we're good people - but maybe won't hope so much if we're all jerks :P

i took it to mean that if we are good people, we will choose to go to yale over any other school (assuming of course we get into yale)...so its not a comment about who gets admitted, rather, assuming we all do, where we choose to go

thederangedwang
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby thederangedwang » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:02 pm

also, to all the people who got in yale..can u tell me/us what they ASW days are when you receive your package? Thanks

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LaCumparsita
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby LaCumparsita » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:02 pm

I agree with thederangedwang's interpretation, although I was originally just being facetious and having a bit of fun with the play-on-words :)

goodwillhunting
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby goodwillhunting » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:25 pm

thederangedwang wrote:also, to all the people who got in yale..can u tell me/us what they ASW days are when you receive your package? Thanks


No package yet, but according to an email from the admission office, there will be two visiting programs for admitted students, one in March and one in April. ASW is the April one (19th-21st), so I have no idea what the March one is about.

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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby thederangedwang » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:36 pm

goodwillhunting wrote:
thederangedwang wrote:also, to all the people who got in yale..can u tell me/us what they ASW days are when you receive your package? Thanks


No package yet, but according to an email from the admission office, there will be two visiting programs for admitted students, one in March and one in April. ASW is the April one (19th-21st), so I have no idea what the March one is about.

k, would appreciate it if you could post it when your package comes, also, april 19-21 is not a weekend..its starts on thursday and goes until saturday.......so are you sure about this?

n4elise
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby n4elise » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:51 pm

thederangedwang wrote:
goodwillhunting wrote:
thederangedwang wrote:also, to all the people who got in yale..can u tell me/us what they ASW days are when you receive your package? Thanks


No package yet, but according to an email from the admission office, there will be two visiting programs for admitted students, one in March and one in April. ASW is the April one (19th-21st), so I have no idea what the March one is about.

k, would appreciate it if you could post it when your package comes, also, april 19-21 is not a weekend..its starts on thursday and goes until saturday.......so are you sure about this?


yup, i can reconfirm. this is the text from craig's email: "We will host two visiting programs for admitted students in March and April, including the Admitted Students Program scheduled for April 19-21"

i hadn't noted that that's not a weekend... interesting

thederangedwang
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby thederangedwang » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:56 pm

wow thats freakin screwed up, 4/19-21 is during my conference tournament (i play D1 sports)...oh well, here's hoping that i dont get into Yale in that case :D

AttaBoy
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby AttaBoy » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:12 pm

MumofCad wrote:As far as sitting in on classes, I wouldn't use that to make a decision. Visits can be very productive if you are looking to work with particular faculty as I was. You get a chance to meet with the professors in the field you want to work in and a much better picture of whether the offerings at the school and the resources devoted to it will fit with your agenda. Of course, if you don't have an agenda, that would not be particularly helpful. It all just depends on what you are personally looking to get out of law school when you are essentially choosing between really great schools. Just like the industry surveys they do where different people will have different opinions or in H being ranked in those over Y, but below Y in the USNews rankings. Depending on how you make your determinations about what is most important to consider you will get different results. It can be surprising.

I would think this is particularly important with Yale, which produces alot of academics. For those that have done supervised PhDs, you will know that your advisers and your relationship with them is very important to your success. Yale has a justifiable rep for producing academics, but Harvard and other top schools do as well. If you are considering that path (even vaguely), I'd highly recommend doing your leg work on making sure you are making the right choice. And that often means going way beyond what admissions material or websites will tell you. You can get good results and stumble into good spots without doing it, but you can also end up in not such great spots. It is 3 years of your life.

So in other words...I wouldn't use subjective determinations like conversations with random people either IRL or on the internet or law school websites to make your determination. I would probably think more carefully before ASWs and visits about what you want to get from law school and how you are going to evaluate them. JMO of course.


This post is full of wise advice, and as a current YLSer, I thought I'd add a few things:

Don't forget about an extremely important factor in deciding between schools: your happiness. It's easy to get caught up in your career trajectory, rankings, and opportunity maximization, but when you go to ASWs a main question that should be on your mind is "will I be happy here?" That answer may not overlap with the question of "will this make me the most successful?" as much as you'd think.

I also wouldn't view YLS as dominated by academics. It's true that YLS produces a lot more academics than anywhere else, but it's still only 10-15% of the class, a small minority. Academia is an additional option you have here, not a constraint or obligation. Just as many people focus on firms, government, public interest, and doing nothing law related at all. Your experience here is whatever what you want it to be.

Congrats to the admits so far--YLS is a magical place!--and best of luck to everyone else! :D

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doppelganger
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby doppelganger » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:53 am

Is anyone else wishing they'd participated in the human rights moot court asha tweeted about? She is very cruel to tempt me so.

I think annyong is most correct in his/her interpretation because there was no mention of choosing Yale as a requirement for the assignment of good.

And, mumofcad, I relate to your mention of family considerations and age. I hope the ideal option makes you a sweet offer.

Now, I shall commence to defiling my avatar with a red pom-poned hat

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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby paperflower » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:02 pm

How long did it take for people to get the complete e-mail?
It's been three days and still I haven't heard anything from yale yet. Slightly nervous.

thederangedwang
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby thederangedwang » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:06 pm

paperflower wrote:How long did it take for people to get the complete e-mail?
It's been three days and still I haven't heard anything from yale yet. Slightly nervous.

like 2 weeks lol

Also, can we safely say that Yale is done with the autoadmits?

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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby Schola » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:15 pm

doppelganger wrote:Is anyone else wishing they'd participated in the human rights moot court asha tweeted about? She is very cruel to tempt me so.

I think annyong is most correct in his/her interpretation because there was no mention of choosing Yale as a requirement for the assignment of good.

And, mumofcad, I relate to your mention of family considerations and age. I hope the ideal option makes you a sweet offer.

Now, I shall commence to defiling my avatar with a red pom-poned hat


Human rights are the invention of twelfth and thirteenth Western European canon lawyers.

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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby Elendil » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:21 pm

thederangedwang wrote:
paperflower wrote:How long did it take for people to get the complete e-mail?
It's been three days and still I haven't heard anything from yale yet. Slightly nervous.

like 2 weeks lol

Also, can we safely say that Yale is done with the autoadmits?


No, I don't think so. It's my understanding that they still autoadmit people up until the end of the cycle.

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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby MumofCad » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:27 pm

thederangedwang wrote:
paperflower wrote:How long did it take for people to get the complete e-mail?
It's been three days and still I haven't heard anything from yale yet. Slightly nervous.

like 2 weeks lol

Also, can we safely say that Yale is done with the autoadmits?


No. they just trickle people in before Christmas - there will probably be a few more, but nothing wild. I have to say though, if you didn't go to an ivy or top public/service academy AND have numbers that are auto-admit...I wouldn't hold out too much hope for a pre-Christmas admission. Still, most go through the faculty review process and I think most of accepted that would be the road even before applying. I know I'm not sitting by my phone, waiting for the 203 to show up.

spek
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby spek » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:53 pm

From twitter: "A few applicants are receiving good news this afternoon. If you get a call from (203), pick up the phone!"

MumofCad
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby MumofCad » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:14 pm

spek wrote:From twitter: "A few applicants are receiving good news this afternoon. If you get a call from (203), pick up the phone!"


Well that's nice! I want someone I "know" to get some fabulous news for the holidays - don't let me down 203! Its always nice for anyone, but I enjoy the good news more when I've seen the posts and "know" the person. It feels like its a victory of some sort. Score 1 for the team!

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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby goodwillhunting » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:24 pm

spek wrote:From twitter: "A few applicants are receiving good news this afternoon. If you get a call from (203), pick up the phone!"


LOL, they must have been frustrated at everyone letting the call go to voicemail. Good luck to everyone today!

MumofCad
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby MumofCad » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:30 pm

goodwillhunting wrote:
spek wrote:From twitter: "A few applicants are receiving good news this afternoon. If you get a call from (203), pick up the phone!"


LOL, they must have been frustrated at everyone letting the call go to voicemail. Good luck to everyone today!


Hahhaa - this cracks me up. You're already in! Just say - "thanks, that's such great news!" I feel like an idiot that Stanford couldn't get a hold of me. I hope the Dean doesn't think I ducted her call. I didn't get it! Nowhere on my phone. I think I'm technologically cursed. Either that or I am always deleting work emails and junk and might sometimes delete a call before it fully comes in.

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soj
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Re: Yale c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle)

Postby soj » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:42 pm

Sitting here hoping for a call from YLS or SLS. It's completely killing my productivity. :evil:




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