Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

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jim-green
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby jim-green » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:28 pm

Anyone formally prepping for interviews using interview books or anything of the sort?

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Hawkeye Pierce
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby Hawkeye Pierce » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:46 pm

jim-green wrote:Anyone formally prepping for interviews using interview books or anything of the sort?


Lol, no.

The questions are so straightforward, just come up with something beforehand.

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Nulli Secundus
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby Nulli Secundus » Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:00 pm

Memorize these:

Why law? ---> "I was born to be a lawyer."

Why Harvard? ---> "It's in Boston and I like Boston" or "I prolly will not get into Yale, so..."

Guaranteed success.

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Hawkeye Pierce
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby Hawkeye Pierce » Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:02 pm

Nulli Secundus wrote:Memorize these:

Why law? ---> "I was born to be a lawyer."

Why Harvard? ---> "It's in Boston and I like Boston"

Guaranteed success.


I think a better answer to the second question is: "So I can use the H Bomb to get chicks to sleep with me." :lol:

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby tomwatts » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:58 pm

Hawkeye Pierce wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but here is my understanding on how a decrease in applications could help us:

1) It could decrease the class size, thus increasing employment opportunities. First, these numbers are going to be slightly off for illustrative purposes. Assume that, e.g., the V10 firms take the top 100 students at Harvard (of a class size of 500). This means 20% of the students would get V10. Now, assume that V10 (and V100) SA class sizes don't decrease. If the school's class size decreased to 450 to compensate for decreased applicants, then it would improve to 22.22%.

2) It could cause the medians to fall as schools maintain their class sizes. This would obviously make it so that, e.g., borderline candidates have a greater shot of being admitted.

For a (heavy) statistical analysis of this sort of thing last year, check out this. At Harvard, anyway, 1) is impossible (Harvard matriculates the same number of people each year regardless), and 2) is unlikely given the glut of highly qualified applicants. My best calculation ended up being that something like 60% of people who score a 170+ matriculate to the t14 (-ish), and something like 30-40% of people who score a 175+ matriculate to Harvard, Yale, or Columbia. That means that there are still plenty of high scores out there that they don't take, and I assume the same is true of GPAs, etc.

Put another way, I remember hearing a description once (forget where) about undergrad admissions at Harvard that went like this: if Harvard decided on a whim to reject everybody that it was poised to accept and look at the second choices for all of those spots, it could fill a class that is not appreciably less qualified than the class that it was poised to accept. In fact, it could run through this reject-the-current-best-candidates at least 5 or 6 times before the class would get appreciably less qualified. At the end of the day, they might as well take the top handful of applicants that could fill something like 6 incoming classes and throw darts at their applications to decide who to accept, because the differences would be minimal.

I think it's not quite the same for law school, but it's close.

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80eight
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby 80eight » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:12 am

Tagging this thread.

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Hawkeye Pierce
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby Hawkeye Pierce » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:20 am

tomwatts wrote:
Hawkeye Pierce wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but here is my understanding on how a decrease in applications could help us:

1) It could decrease the class size, thus increasing employment opportunities. First, these numbers are going to be slightly off for illustrative purposes. Assume that, e.g., the V10 firms take the top 100 students at Harvard (of a class size of 500). This means 20% of the students would get V10. Now, assume that V10 (and V100) SA class sizes don't decrease. If the school's class size decreased to 450 to compensate for decreased applicants, then it would improve to 22.22%.

2) It could cause the medians to fall as schools maintain their class sizes. This would obviously make it so that, e.g., borderline candidates have a greater shot of being admitted.

For a (heavy) statistical analysis of this sort of thing last year, check out this. At Harvard, anyway, 1) is impossible (Harvard matriculates the same number of people each year regardless), and 2) is unlikely given the glut of highly qualified applicants. My best calculation ended up being that something like 60% of people who score a 170+ matriculate to the t14 (-ish), and something like 30-40% of people who score a 175+ matriculate to Harvard, Yale, or Columbia. That means that there are still plenty of high scores out there that they don't take, and I assume the same is true of GPAs, etc.

Put another way, I remember hearing a description once (forget where) about undergrad admissions at Harvard that went like this: if Harvard decided on a whim to reject everybody that it was poised to accept and look at the second choices for all of those spots, it could fill a class that is not appreciably less qualified than the class that it was poised to accept. In fact, it could run through this reject-the-current-best-candidates at least 5 or 6 times before the class would get appreciably less qualified. At the end of the day, they might as well take the top handful of applicants that could fill something like 6 incoming classes and throw darts at their applications to decide who to accept, because the differences would be minimal.

I think it's not quite the same for law school, but it's close.


Interesting analysis.

I think it's correct to say that there are plenty of high LSATs and high GPAs that YHS do not take every year. But, I'm guessing that many of the people in this grouping are splitters and reverse-splitters. So the question becomes, how many applicants have both a high LSAT and a high GPA (3.7-3.8+)? Are they really turning away THAT many qualified applicants?

They conduct 1000-1200 phone interviews each year, and extend admissions invitations to roughly 800 if I'm not mistaken. Applying the same percentile bands from test takers to applicants, last year, close to 2000 individuals would have applied with a 170+. It doesn't seem like there would be that many more qualified applicants.

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Lovely Ludwig Van
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby Lovely Ludwig Van » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:26 am

Tag.

Moar discussion on the impact of falling # of applicants/LSAT-takers :P

thederangedwang
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby thederangedwang » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:40 am

I'm tempted to agree with Hawkeye, the stats on LSN bear it out. Almost everyone above a certain LSAT score (173 or 4) and a gpa floor gets accepted to harvard. If harvard really had substantial leeway, its graph would resemble Yale's, and it doesnt.

Yale on the otherhand fits into the scenario, because of its small size, it can potentially turn away an entire class and still fill it with equal qualified people, which is why we dont see a clear line where the dots turn from red to yellow, then from yellow to green

on harvards graph, we clearly see this line where rejects turn into admits

imho, i really dont think harvard has much breathing room at all. if it wants to maintain its current class size and stats, it has to admit well qualified (in terms of high gpa n lsat) peeps

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Samara
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby Samara » Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:39 am

Hawkeye Pierce wrote:
tomwatts wrote:
Hawkeye Pierce wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but here is my understanding on how a decrease in applications could help us:

1) It could decrease the class size, thus increasing employment opportunities. First, these numbers are going to be slightly off for illustrative purposes. Assume that, e.g., the V10 firms take the top 100 students at Harvard (of a class size of 500). This means 20% of the students would get V10. Now, assume that V10 (and V100) SA class sizes don't decrease. If the school's class size decreased to 450 to compensate for decreased applicants, then it would improve to 22.22%.

2) It could cause the medians to fall as schools maintain their class sizes. This would obviously make it so that, e.g., borderline candidates have a greater shot of being admitted.

For a (heavy) statistical analysis of this sort of thing last year, check out this. At Harvard, anyway, 1) is impossible (Harvard matriculates the same number of people each year regardless), and 2) is unlikely given the glut of highly qualified applicants. My best calculation ended up being that something like 60% of people who score a 170+ matriculate to the t14 (-ish), and something like 30-40% of people who score a 175+ matriculate to Harvard, Yale, or Columbia. That means that there are still plenty of high scores out there that they don't take, and I assume the same is true of GPAs, etc.

Put another way, I remember hearing a description once (forget where) about undergrad admissions at Harvard that went like this: if Harvard decided on a whim to reject everybody that it was poised to accept and look at the second choices for all of those spots, it could fill a class that is not appreciably less qualified than the class that it was poised to accept. In fact, it could run through this reject-the-current-best-candidates at least 5 or 6 times before the class would get appreciably less qualified. At the end of the day, they might as well take the top handful of applicants that could fill something like 6 incoming classes and throw darts at their applications to decide who to accept, because the differences would be minimal.

I think it's not quite the same for law school, but it's close.


Interesting analysis.

I think it's correct to say that there are plenty of high LSATs and high GPAs that YHS do not take every year. But, I'm guessing that many of the people in this grouping are splitters and reverse-splitters. So the question becomes, how many applicants have both a high LSAT and a high GPA (3.7-3.8+)? Are they really turning away THAT many qualified applicants?

They conduct 1000-1200 phone interviews each year, and extend admissions invitations to roughly 800 if I'm not mistaken. Applying the same percentile bands from test takers to applicants, last year, close to 2000 individuals would have applied with a 170+. It doesn't seem like there would be that many more qualified applicants.

Plus, even if they can take more splitters to maintain their medians, their GPA floor has to drop, which still means a more favorable cycle. Harvard isn't turning away tons of people at or near the medians. If they were, they would start taking higher stats and boost their medians. I think we can safely say that all schools (with the possible exception of Y) maintain a fairly fine edge on their medians and push the envelope a little (to various degrees), so a significant decrease in applicants as expected should yield a more favorable cycle.

MumofCad
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby MumofCad » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:01 am

Agreed, there isn't nearly the number of high-numbered applicants for law schools and they are spread over a much smaller group of institutions than for undergrad. Harvard def does not have the leeway to reject its first class and take its second round, Yale def does because its small and it seems that more will choose it over Harvard than vice versus (that are admitted to both, mythical unicorns and the like). Yale could after all maintain its numbers for the most part with Harvard's class, which is essentially 3 times its size. Harvard on the other hand, could take Yale's and the top run at S & CCN, but it couldn't fill a whole class with those folks and its likely that they chose SCCN over H already for either financial or personal reasons. As already stated, LSN bears this out.

Still, the drop will probably be on the margins, more splitters getting in, most likely to have the biggest impact around the 25th percentiles. I think at all the schools, we'll probably see 75ths maintained, but the 25ths sinking lower as they are forced to take more splitters to maintain the 75ths....of course, we won't know for sure until we see Oct stats. Still the sinking of takers really started last October. It stands to reason that this year would be more effected by Nov-Feb-June LSATs which dropped alot more than last year's cycle. I think the only school that won't be impacted will be Yale. They'll probably just have a shorter WL than in previous cycles. Maybe some with a 4-4-3 in the review will get in - GASP!

jim-green
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby jim-green » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:14 am

tomwatts wrote:At the end of the day, they might as well take the top handful of applicants that could fill something like 6 incoming classes and throw darts at their applications to decide who to accept, because the differences would be minimal.
When I first read this, I winced and said to myself, "Ouch, Tom, that would hurt," because I read it as 'throw darts at the applicants.'

caminante
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby caminante » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:19 am

Interesting discussion going on here!

I am still in the process of writing my essays and completing my application materials. I'm hoping that the lower number of applicants will mean that even if I submit near then end of November I won't be waitlisted. (My stats are 3.89/176).

I'm having an incredibly tough time writing something interesting for my statement. I had a ton of undergrad loans and took the highest paying job I could get after graduation- which happened to be very, very boring. I've been out of school for 2.5 years so I don't really want to write my essay about something from college or before, but each draft I write sounds forced and cliche to me. Any tips on doing well enough to not get waitlisted with my numbers?

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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby jim-green » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:35 am

caminante wrote:Interesting discussion going on here!

I am still in the process of writing my essays and completing my application materials. I'm hoping that the lower number of applicants will mean that even if I submit near then end of November I won't be waitlisted. (My stats are 3.89/176).

I'm having an incredibly tough time writing something interesting for my statement. I had a ton of undergrad loans and took the highest paying job I could get after graduation- which happened to be very, very boring. I've been out of school for 2.5 years so I don't really want to write my essay about something from college or before, but each draft I write sounds forced and cliche to me. Any tips on doing well enough to not get waitlisted with my numbers?
PS about a summer vacation in Florida is a guaranteed winner.

thederangedwang
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby thederangedwang » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:46 am

caminante wrote:Interesting discussion going on here!

I am still in the process of writing my essays and completing my application materials. I'm hoping that the lower number of applicants will mean that even if I submit near then end of November I won't be waitlisted. (My stats are 3.89/176).

I'm having an incredibly tough time writing something interesting for my statement. I had a ton of undergrad loans and took the highest paying job I could get after graduation- which happened to be very, very boring. I've been out of school for 2.5 years so I don't really want to write my essay about something from college or before, but each draft I write sounds forced and cliche to me. Any tips on doing well enough to not get waitlisted with my numbers?


ur kidding right? u have 75th lsat and only slightly below median gpa...ur pretty damm close to being an auto admit if u arent one already

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annyong
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby annyong » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:53 am

thederangedwang wrote:
caminante wrote:Interesting discussion going on here!

I am still in the process of writing my essays and completing my application materials. I'm hoping that the lower number of applicants will mean that even if I submit near then end of November I won't be waitlisted. (My stats are 3.89/176).

I'm having an incredibly tough time writing something interesting for my statement. I had a ton of undergrad loans and took the highest paying job I could get after graduation- which happened to be very, very boring. I've been out of school for 2.5 years so I don't really want to write my essay about something from college or before, but each draft I write sounds forced and cliche to me. Any tips on doing well enough to not get waitlisted with my numbers?


ur kidding right? u have 75th lsat and only slightly below median gpa...ur pretty damm close to being an auto admit if u arent one already

Just curious, but if someone at 75th LSAT and slightly below median gpa is close to being an auto-admit - does this reasoning apply to someone who is over 75th GPA and only slightly below median LSAT? Just wondering it went both ways or if LSAT > GPA...

thederangedwang
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby thederangedwang » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:01 pm

yeah, i dont think the opposite is true for harvard at least....

im at median lsat n above 75th gpa...and i dont think im an auto admit...but of course this is just my opinion

of course, i still think both of us have an above decent chance of getting admission

caminante
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby caminante » Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:47 pm

thederangedwang wrote:
caminante wrote:Interesting discussion going on here!

I am still in the process of writing my essays and completing my application materials. I'm hoping that the lower number of applicants will mean that even if I submit near then end of November I won't be waitlisted. (My stats are 3.89/176).

I'm having an incredibly tough time writing something interesting for my statement. I had a ton of undergrad loans and took the highest paying job I could get after graduation- which happened to be very, very boring. I've been out of school for 2.5 years so I don't really want to write my essay about something from college or before, but each draft I write sounds forced and cliche to me. Any tips on doing well enough to not get waitlisted with my numbers?


ur kidding right? u have 75th lsat and only slightly below median gpa...ur pretty damm close to being an auto admit if u arent one already


I'm not kidding. :oops:

There are people with around my numbers who have gotten waitlisted or dinged in the past few years, so I want to make sure I don't screw up the chances that my numbers give me. I didn't go to an ivy, I didn't do a fellowship, my WE is not overly impressive, so I really think I need to have a good PS.

Maybe once I finish a decent draft one of you lovely TLSers would be willing to review it?

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euskadi
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby euskadi » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:04 pm

caminante wrote:
thederangedwang wrote:
caminante wrote:Interesting discussion going on here!

I am still in the process of writing my essays and completing my application materials. I'm hoping that the lower number of applicants will mean that even if I submit near then end of November I won't be waitlisted. (My stats are 3.89/176).

I'm having an incredibly tough time writing something interesting for my statement. I had a ton of undergrad loans and took the highest paying job I could get after graduation- which happened to be very, very boring. I've been out of school for 2.5 years so I don't really want to write my essay about something from college or before, but each draft I write sounds forced and cliche to me. Any tips on doing well enough to not get waitlisted with my numbers?


ur kidding right? u have 75th lsat and only slightly below median gpa...ur pretty damm close to being an auto admit if u arent one already


I'm not kidding. :oops:

There are people with around my numbers who have gotten waitlisted or dinged in the past few years, so I want to make sure I don't screw up the chances that my numbers give me. I didn't go to an ivy, I didn't do a fellowship, my WE is not overly impressive, so I really think I need to have a good PS.

Maybe once I finish a decent draft one of you lovely TLSers would be willing to review it?


I'm in a similar position - public UG (MA from a top school, though), 3.98/175 (retake), probably mediocre softs compared to most people accepted at HLS. I'm doubting my chances. I've already submitted my application, hoping my PS does the trick, but it's so difficult to say. In any case, I can sympathize and would be more than happy to read through your personal statement once you've got a draft you consider acceptable.

caminante
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby caminante » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:14 pm

Thanks, euskadi :) I think your stats are fantastic. You should have no problem getting into HLS. Let us know how your phone interview goes!

I will send you a PM of a draft when I have one I think is decent.

MumofCad
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby MumofCad » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:15 pm

thederangedwang wrote:yeah, i dont think the opposite is true for harvard at least....

im at median lsat n above 75th gpa...and i dont think im an auto admit...but of course this is just my opinion

of course, i still think both of us have an above decent chance of getting admission


I don't think LSN bears this out. I think these candidates seem to have the same shot. Everyone with a 173 above a 3.89 GPA got in last year. Odds look about the same at 176, as long as you stay above the 3.85 mark (there is a big space in data at that LSAT but that was the line for 177, so I'm approximating). There are a few anomalies around both groups, but for both sets, the odd of admittance are better than of being WL.

Most of the WL anomalies though are LSAT re-takers with lower end GPAs, could be that they weren't treated as straight up high lsat/lower GPAers since they had a lower first LSAT (note that one of these re-takers ended up at Yale, cry a river for that guy right?). I did notice a few borderline WL that don't have obvious things stated, but could be that they didn't disclose multiple takes or some other issue - I'm tempted to say one of the 174s was being straight from UG, but the more likely is that they went to a very off UG institution since they say their 3.94 GPA made them ranked 145 out of 1688. I don't see how that could be accurate unless they had a bunch of forgiveness or something on their transcript, which didn't count into their GPA but hurt their ranking and also the way H evaluated them. I think this is more likely than the UG thing.

So basically, it looks good for both of you based purely on numbers and barring unknown external factors.

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Hawkeye Pierce
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby Hawkeye Pierce » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:32 pm

I have no idea why you people with high numbers are worried. With those kinds of stats, you're auto-admit.

Sounds more like a subtle attempt at bragging to me.

caminante
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby caminante » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:59 pm

Hawkeye Pierce wrote:I have no idea why you people with high numbers are worried. With those kinds of stats, you're auto-admit.

Sounds more like a subtle attempt at bragging to me.


I guess I should be flattered that you think I'm bragging. In reality it is just very surreal to me that I have a shot at being admitted to HLS. I knew I did well in school, but I am the first person in my extended family to attend a single day of college, much less Law School... at Harvard.

I have no map to follow, no mentors outside of my undergrad profs, and everyone I know thinks it's absolutely insane for me to apply to Harvard. So, I look for advice on TLS and try to make sure I am doing everything I can to put together an acceptable application.

Also, Hawkeye, the knowledge you have posted on TLS has been incredibly valuable to me. Thank you so, so much.

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Hawkeye Pierce
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby Hawkeye Pierce » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:04 pm

caminante wrote:
Hawkeye Pierce wrote:I have no idea why you people with high numbers are worried. With those kinds of stats, you're auto-admit.

Sounds more like a subtle attempt at bragging to me.


I guess I should be flattered that you think I'm bragging. In reality it is just very surreal to me that I have a shot at being admitted to HLS. I knew I did well in school, but I am the first person in my extended family to attend a single day of college, much less Law School... at Harvard.

I have no map to follow, no mentors outside of my undergrad profs, and everyone I know thinks it's absolutely insane for me to apply to Harvard. So, I look for advice on TLS and try to make sure I am doing everything I can to put together an acceptable application.

Also, Hawkeye, the knowledge you have posted on TLS has been incredibly valuable to me. Thank you so, so much.


Fair enough, I probably just came across as slightly cranky haha. It's just that Harvard cares very little about WE or other softs. Just by looking at similar applicants on LSN, you can figure out your chances pretty easily. The same cannot be said for Yale and Stanford, however.

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soj
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Re: Harvard 2012 applicants (class of 2015)

Postby soj » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:13 pm

In past cycles, people with your numbers who didn't get into Harvard were very rare exceptions, and basically all of them had other fantastic options, so I wouldn't worry!




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