Fordham(Full Tuition) vs. St. John's (free) vs.Brooklyn(1/3) Forum

[Lwoods]

Dude, it's totally incongruous to fret over losing a scholarship with 40 percent stipulation while maintaining optimism over your capability to score AIUSA/160k from Fordham. If you're worried over keeping that money, you should be doubly concerned with respect to your Fordham class rank.

Also, being outside of top 40 percent at St. John will at least leave you debt free. At Fordham, you would be in a tough spot both financially and employment wise.

Don't get annoyed because rational advice isn't in line with what you apparently want us to tell you.

But if he is outside the 40% (I really do think they section stack), he either has to drop out (without debt and without a degree) or take out loans to pay for the last 2 years at St. John's. Of course, I suppose you could argue that if he doesn't make top 40% at St. John's that he should re-evaluate this whole law thing and at least he wouldn't have debt after that year...whereas if he decides after the first year of Fordham that he's not cut out for law he'll have too much debt already to turn back.

[rocon7383]

I understand that people look at spending 45k per year at a good law school as significantly riskier than going to a not so good law school for free. I get it. In the near term that is certainly true. The thing that really worries me though is the scenario where, despite working my ass off, I catch a few tough breaks curve wise at St. John's, I finish top 30/40%, and NEVER find a good job. And while I meander along, interviewing against competition with JDs from Columbia/NYU/Fordham/Dozo, I never find anything but shit law.

[mom2law]

I understand that people look at spending 45k per year at a good law school as significantly riskier than going to a not so good law school for free. I get it. In the near term that is certainly true. The thing that really worries me though is the scenario where, despite working my ass off, I catch a few tough breaks curve wise at St. John's, I finish top 30/40%, and NEVER find a good job. And while I meander along, interviewing against competition with JDs from Columbia/NYU/Fordham/Dozo, I never find anything but shit law.

Debt is more soul-crushing than many on this site realize. I have a kid facing similar choices---actually even somewhat better, with $25,000 at Fordham, full rides(some without stips) at 3 NY/NJ schools, and admits to T14-20's without money. We know many successful NY atty's well, and virtually all say go for free because no one has faith things will be better soon enough to matter.

[rocon7383]

I understand that people look at spending 45k per year at a good law school as significantly riskier than going to a not so good law school for free. I get it. In the near term that is certainly true. The thing that really worries me though is the scenario where, despite working my ass off, I catch a few tough breaks curve wise at St. John's, I finish top 30/40%, and NEVER find a good job. And while I meander along, interviewing against competition with JDs from Columbia/NYU/Fordham/Dozo, I never find anything but shit law.

Debt is more soul-crushing than many on this site realize. I have a kid facing similar choices---actually even somewhat better, with $25,000 at Fordham, full rides(some without stips) at 3 NY/NJ schools, and admits to T14-20's without money. We know many successful NY atty's well, and virtually all say go for free because no one has faith things will be better soon enough to matter.

I have mostly been given the opposite advice from many attorneys, though, which makes the decision more confusing.

[rocon7383]

I've now spoken to my prelaw advisor, my cousin who has his own practice, a family friend who is a partner at a vault top 10 and a law professor at st. johns. I have gotten 2 wholehearted votes of support for going to fordham if i get in and to "take the money at st. johns, no question". Completely stuck in the mud.

On another note-- I checked out the lists of firms who recruit at St. John's and it didn't look that different from the list at Fordham. I recognize that listing Skadden as a firm that recruits at st. johns could mean they recruited from there once, but i did find it interesting.

[rocon7383]

bump

[Lwoods]

I've now spoken to my prelaw advisor, my cousin who has his own practice, a family friend who is a partner at a vault top 10 and a law professor at st. johns. I have gotten 2 wholehearted votes of support for going to fordham if i get in and to "take the money at st. johns, no question". Completely stuck in the mud.

On another note-- I checked out the lists of firms who recruit at St. John's and it didn't look that different from the list at Fordham. I recognize that listing Skadden as a firm that recruits at st. johns could mean they recruited from there once, but i did find it interesting.

Yes. Check the NALP directory. My former firm is listed in OSU materials as a firm that has recruited there, but they haven't recruited from there in years. They do, however, recruit at Fordham (the only non-T14 where they participate in OCI).

[reasonable_man]

I understand that people look at spending 45k per year at a good law school as significantly riskier than going to a not so good law school for free. I get it. In the near term that is certainly true. The thing that really worries me though is the scenario where, despite working my ass off, I catch a few tough breaks curve wise at St. John's, I finish top 30/40%, and NEVER find a good job. And while I meander along, interviewing against competition with JDs from Columbia/NYU/Fordham/Dozo, I never find anything but shit law.

The same thing happens to Fordham grads ... Your chances of winding up in the bottom 75% at Fordham (or as I like to call it, the majority), is pretty strong and frankly, those students are just as doomed to shitlaw as an SJU grad at a similar grade curve. The flip side to that is that at SJU, you may walk away paying for nothing, or in the alternative, you may be one of the many scholly recipients that lose their scholly after year one.

[Younger Abstention]

I don't know why everyone is so down on Fordham. It's a great school, it's fairly prestigious, and the admission standards are quite competitive. I'm not certain that it doesn't justify the debt even at sticker, provided no T14 opportunities. Had I not gotten into a certain school at the last minute two years ago, I would have ended up there.

I think most people from Fordham do quite well. If not, there is always IBR so I'm not certain 200k is all that much worse than 100k from a TTT. 0L's seem to subscribe to a biglaw or bust mentality, but actually, there are gradations. Government, public interest, JAG, mid-size firms, etc. -- all these doors are opened by attending Fordham. At a school like St John's, shitlaw on Long Island looks like more of the reality absent a very high class rank.

I have friends at really shitty law schools and the disparity between a T30 and a TTT is great. This is so even if neither leads to a biglaw opportunity. If you don't feel that Fordham justifies the debt then don't go to law school; I feel that a free ride at St. Johns just isn't worth the time and energy.

[paratactical]

bump

If you don't want to listen to reasonable people who give you reasonable advice, why keep bumping the thread?

I checked out the lists of firms who recruit at St. John's and it didn't look that different from the list at Fordham. I recognize that listing Skadden as a firm that recruits at st. johns could mean they recruited from there once, but i did find it interesting.

A quick google of Skadden's site seems to show that their last St. John's law grad is from 1996 and lateraled in as a partner in 2010. Everyone else is pre-1983. Sure is "interesting" but I wouldn't say it would inspire me to take out those loans or continue on your deluded vision that you're going to reach your goals from these schools.

[Younger Abstention]

bump

If you don't want to listen to reasonable people who give you reasonable advice, why keep bumping the thread?

I checked out the lists of firms who recruit at St. John's and it didn't look that different from the list at Fordham. I recognize that listing Skadden as a firm that recruits at st. johns could mean they recruited from there once, but i did find it interesting.

A quick google of Skadden's site seems to show that their last St. John's law grad is from 1996 and lateraled in as a partner in 2010. Everyone else is pre-1983. Sure is "interesting" but I wouldn't say it would inspire me to take out those loans or continue on your deluded vision that you're going to reach your goals from these schools.

It's vastly different. And quit looking at Skadden. That's a horrible example and you'll need to be top 5% at Fordham or the number one guy at STJ to get that firm.

[Younger Abstention]

I understand that people look at spending 45k per year at a good law school as significantly riskier than going to a not so good law school for free. I get it. In the near term that is certainly true. The thing that really worries me though is the scenario where, despite working my ass off, I catch a few tough breaks curve wise at St. John's, I finish top 30/40%, and NEVER find a good job. And while I meander along, interviewing against competition with JDs from Columbia/NYU/Fordham/Dozo, I never find anything but shit law.

The same thing happens to Fordham grads ... Your chances of winding up in the bottom 75% at Fordham (or as I like to call it, the majority), is pretty strong and frankly, those students are just as doomed to shitlaw as an SJU grad at a similar grade curve. The flip side to that is that at SJU, you may walk away paying for nothing, or in the alternative, you may be one of the many scholly recipients that lose their scholly after year one.

I disagree. I think you do better in the long run from Fordham. Just having the name on your resume will open up non-shitlaw opportunities. STJ is just a stain on your resume, plain and simple. Law school is probably a mistake for most people. But if you're going to do it, at least go to a respected school.

[rocon7383]

bump

If you don't want to listen to reasonable people who give you reasonable advice, why keep bumping the thread?

I checked out the lists of firms who recruit at St. John's and it didn't look that different from the list at Fordham. I recognize that listing Skadden as a firm that recruits at st. johns could mean they recruited from there once, but i did find it interesting.

A quick google of Skadden's site seems to show that their last St. John's law grad is from 1996 and lateraled in as a partner in 2010. Everyone else is pre-1983. Sure is "interesting" but I wouldn't say it would inspire me to take out those loans or continue on your deluded vision that you're going to reach your goals from these schools.

good lord, you seem like a miserable person.

1) I never said I didn't value advice. I actually greatly appreciate it. However, I am getting conflicting advice and so I contnue to seek more to try and get a better grasp.

2) Your google search confirmed what I suspected. I brought up the Skadden mention for that very reason. My vision is not at all deluded, I was merely pointing out what looked like a shameless and hollow reference to skadden recruiting St.John students.

[paratactical]

2) Your google search confirmed what I suspected. I brought up the Skadden mention for that very reason. My vision is not at all deluded, I was merely pointing out what looked like a shameless and hollow reference to skadden recruiting St.John students.

So, this should answer your question about the value of BLS/St. John's, unless your goals have changed.

Also, I'm quite happy with my life, just feel bad for people making unwise financial decisions based on unjustified optimism. Thanks for your concern.

[reasonable_man]

I understand that people look at spending 45k per year at a good law school as significantly riskier than going to a not so good law school for free. I get it. In the near term that is certainly true. The thing that really worries me though is the scenario where, despite working my ass off, I catch a few tough breaks curve wise at St. John's, I finish top 30/40%, and NEVER find a good job. And while I meander along, interviewing against competition with JDs from Columbia/NYU/Fordham/Dozo, I never find anything but shit law.

The same thing happens to Fordham grads ... Your chances of winding up in the bottom 75% at Fordham (or as I like to call it, the majority), is pretty strong and frankly, those students are just as doomed to shitlaw as an SJU grad at a similar grade curve. The flip side to that is that at SJU, you may walk away paying for nothing, or in the alternative, you may be one of the many scholly recipients that lose their scholly after year one.

I disagree. I think you do better in the long run from Fordham. Just having the name on your resume will open up non-shitlaw opportunities. STJ is just a stain on your resume, plain and simple. Law school is probably a mistake for most people. But if you're going to do it, at least go to a respected school.

You are seriously overstating the value of a Fordham degree my friend.

[rocon7383]

I understand that people look at spending 45k per year at a good law school as significantly riskier than going to a not so good law school for free. I get it. In the near term that is certainly true. The thing that really worries me though is the scenario where, despite working my ass off, I catch a few tough breaks curve wise at St. John's, I finish top 30/40%, and NEVER find a good job. And while I meander along, interviewing against competition with JDs from Columbia/NYU/Fordham/Dozo, I never find anything but shit law.

The same thing happens to Fordham grads ... Your chances of winding up in the bottom 75% at Fordham (or as I like to call it, the majority), is pretty strong and frankly, those students are just as doomed to shitlaw as an SJU grad at a similar grade curve. The flip side to that is that at SJU, you may walk away paying for nothing, or in the alternative, you may be one of the many scholly recipients that lose their scholly after year one.

I disagree. I think you do better in the long run from Fordham. Just having the name on your resume will open up non-shitlaw opportunities. STJ is just a stain on your resume, plain and simple. Law school is probably a mistake for most people. But if you're going to do it, at least go to a respected school.

You are seriously overstating the value of a Fordham degree my friend.

I can see why "having the name on the resume will open doors" is an big overstatement. But saying 75% of fordham grads are doomed for shitlaw is also a bit of an overstatement, right? I guess it sort of comes down to what you would define shitlaw as. I wouldn't classify serving as an ADA as shitlaw... But then again, I guess if that becomes my decision I would rather be in zero debt... I suppose I'm making the conflicting ideas in my head pretty clear. Thanks for the advice!

[paratactical]

I wouldn't classify serving as an ADA as shitlaw...

NYC ADA positions are incredibly competitive and not easy to get at all.

[rocon7383]

I've now spoken to my prelaw advisor, my cousin who has his own practice, a family friend who is a partner at a vault top 10 and a law professor at st. johns. I have gotten 2 wholehearted votes of support for going to fordham if i get in and to "take the money at st. johns, no question". Completely stuck in the mud.

On another note-- I checked out the lists of firms who recruit at St. John's and it didn't look that different from the list at Fordham. I recognize that listing Skadden as a firm that recruits at st. johns could mean they recruited from there once, but i did find it interesting.

Yes. Check the NALP directory. My former firm is listed in OSU materials as a firm that has recruited there, but they haven't recruited from there in years. They do, however, recruit at Fordham (the only non-T14 where they participate in OCI).

Thanks for the info

[whattheheck]

I understand that people look at spending 45k per year at a good law school as significantly riskier than going to a not so good law school for free. I get it. In the near term that is certainly true. The thing that really worries me though is the scenario where, despite working my ass off, I catch a few tough breaks curve wise at St. John's, I finish top 30/40%, and NEVER find a good job. And while I meander along, interviewing against competition with JDs from Columbia/NYU/Fordham/Dozo, I never find anything but shit law.

I find it thoroughly frustrating when people make these huge assumptions about certain schools in NYC like Fordham, Cardozo, St. John's or Brooklyn. Yes wanting to work in NYC BIG LAW will be competitive but if you really WANT to work here, you have to WORK in getting the job. You have to do due diligence. The only profession that I know you can easily get a job right out of graduation is the medical career.

Brooklyn is not a bad law school by any stretch. It's a regional school but you will most easily get a decent public interest around the area. Is it worth the sticker price...maybe not. The tuition is high and I am not sure if they participate in LRAP. But still is not a bad school. I believe Cardozo is a little more competitive with BIG LAW placement but you have a much better chance at gaining a mid law or small law job. Mind you Mid law or Small law does not mean small pay. I know of SEVERAL mid-small law firms off the top of my head that pay very well (like 140k) and don't have the crappy work hours or over done stress levels that Big Law has. Fordham gives you a great chance(yes I said great chance) in getting a gig in BIG LAW. The alumni network is huge. You can either be lucky and get a gig right out of school or you may have to wait on the off season when OCI's are not being done to get in. So basically you actually have to go to them. NOT A BIG DEAL BY FAR!!!!! People seem so freakin' lazy on these forums always thinking that the name and rank should automatically get you an open door to BIG LAW. You could even work outside of BIG LAW for a little while and go to them when you have become more developed and possibly bring them potential clients and they would LOVE to take you in just for the potential revenue. This will give you a GREATER starting salary in BIG LAW and your longevity or partner track will be better paved then if you came right out of law school.

And even if you get a law gig below, (God forbid!!!!!!!) 100k, that doesn't mean that you will not move up in salary. For one, yearly reviews can easily boost your salary by 10k, and you can easily take the experience and look for another gig..... DUH!!!!. Your first salary is not your set salary for the rest of your career. That brings me to St. John's. No you are not doomed to having a crappy law gig coming from St. John's. You can definitely and will definitely get a job but where you take it from there is up to you....AS IT IS FOR MANY OTHER LAW STUDENTS!!!!!!!!
The starting salary most likely will be lower, but it will increase over time. How much time is definitely up to you.

By the way I have worked in NYC as a paralegal for 10+ years and developed strong relationships with colleagues, attorneys, partners and agents. So I believe I have a first hand look on how the market operates in NYC. The best asset you can give yourself is gaining CRAZY interpersonal, interviewing and network skills. This will get you jobs, clients and more money EVERYTIME no matter what school you come from.

[rocon7383]

I understand that people look at spending 45k per year at a good law school as significantly riskier than going to a not so good law school for free. I get it. In the near term that is certainly true. The thing that really worries me though is the scenario where, despite working my ass off, I catch a few tough breaks curve wise at St. John's, I finish top 30/40%, and NEVER find a good job. And while I meander along, interviewing against competition with JDs from Columbia/NYU/Fordham/Dozo, I never find anything but shit law.

I find it thoroughly frustrating when people make these huge assumptions about certain schools in NYC like Fordham, Cardozo, St. John's or Brooklyn. Yes wanting to work in NYC BIG LAW will be competitive but if you really WANT to work here, you have to WORK in getting the job. You have to do due diligence. The only profession that I know you can easily get a job right out of graduation is the medical career.

Brooklyn is not a bad law school by any stretch. It's a regional school but you will most easily get a decent public interest around the area. Is it worth the sticker price...maybe not. The tuition is high and I am not sure if they participate in LRAP. But still is not a bad school. I believe Cardozo is a little more competitive with BIG LAW placement but you have a much better chance at gaining a mid law or small law job. Mind you Mid law or Small law does not mean small pay. I know of SEVERAL mid-small law firms off the top of my head that pay very well (like 140k) and don't have the crappy work hours or over done stress levels that Big Law has. Fordham gives you a great chance(yes I said great chance) in getting a gig in BIG LAW. The alumni network is huge. You can either be lucky and get a gig right out of school or you may have to wait on the off season when OCI's are not being done to get in. So basically you actually have to go to them. NOT A BIG DEAL BY FAR!!!!! People seem so freakin' lazy on these forums always thinking that the name and rank should automatically get you an open door to BIG LAW. You could even work outside of BIG LAW for a little while and go to them when you have become more developed and possibly bring them potential clients and they would LOVE to take you in just for the potential revenue. This will give you a GREATER starting salary in BIG LAW and your longevity or partner track will be better paved then if you came right out of law school.

And even if you get a law gig below, (God forbid!!!!!!!) 100k, that doesn't mean that you will not move up in salary. For one, yearly reviews can easily boost your salary by 10k, and you can easily take the experience and look for another gig..... DUH!!!!. Your first salary is not your set salary for the rest of your career. That brings me to St. John's. No you are not doomed to having a crappy law gig coming from St. John's. You can definitely and will definitely get a job but where you take it from there is up to you....AS IT IS FOR MANY OTHER LAW STUDENTS!!!!!!!!
The starting salary most likely will be lower, but it will increase over time. How much time is definitely up to you.

By the way I have worked in NYC as a paralegal for 10+ years and developed strong relationships with colleagues, attorneys, partners and agents. So I believe I have a first hand look on how the market operates in NYC. The best asset you can give yourself is gaining CRAZY interpersonal, interviewing and network skills. This will get you jobs, clients and more money EVERYTIME no matter what school you come from.

Thank you for your opinion!

[rocon7383]

I received what amounts to a little less than half tuition per year at Cardozo. Thoughts? Does Cardozo present itself as the happy medium? Is it close enough to Fordham to justify saving roughly 70k? Is it also significantly better than st. johns to justify paying about 70k more to attend? I appreciate any and all feedback

[Ersatz Haderach]

You're committed to the market and want to do the absolute best you can. If you think you can manage the debt, you absolutely should go to Fordham. If not, I'd take the money at St. John's. The others aren't better enough to justify not going to Fordham for.

[rocon7383]

You're committed to the market and want to do the absolute best you can. If you think you can manage the debt, you absolutely should go to Fordham. If not, I'd take the money at St. John's. The others aren't better enough to justify not going to Fordham for.

i appreciate the feedback.

[Lotus24]

Just a general word of advice, there is such a thing as TOO MUCH ADVICE. I'm not saying don't inform yourself or talk to lots of people or use the resources at hand. I'm just saying in the end, you know yourself best and you have a gut and you should go with it. Any of these scenarios could happen. You could be one of the "lucky" people from Fordham to place in biglaw, you could lose your scholly at one of the other schools, whatever. There's only so much what-ffing you can do and there are only so many things that are in your control beyond a certain point.

Every decision carries a risk and there are pros and cons to everything. It sounds like you want to go to Fordham. But you're not in yet, so I'd make peace with a decision right now given the information you have. If you get into Fordham, then I say jump on. More because that's what it sounds like you want to do, not because that's the RIGHT or WRONG thing to do.

just my opinion!

[rocon7383]

Just a general word of advice, there is such a thing as TOO MUCH ADVICE. I'm not saying don't inform yourself or talk to lots of people or use the resources at hand. I'm just saying in the end, you know yourself best and you have a gut and you should go with it. Any of these scenarios could happen. You could be one of the "lucky" people from Fordham to place in biglaw, you could lose your scholly at one of the other schools, whatever. There's only so much what-ffing you can do and there are only so many things that are in your control beyond a certain point.

Every decision carries a risk and there are pros and cons to everything. It sounds like you want to go to Fordham. But you're not in yet, so I'd make peace with a decision right now given the information you have. If you get into Fordham, then I say jump on. More because that's what it sounds like you want to do, not because that's the RIGHT or WRONG thing to do.

just my opinion!

I completely agree with what you're saying, thank you. My course of action as of right now is to try and get Cardozo to up this scholarship a bit. I've always really liked the school an was simply not expecting money from them.